Do you own your body?

[Paul_Chance]

I'm sure you have at least passing familiarity with the argument the pro-life crowd makes. It's pretty straightforward and we each decide whether or not it has merit. Then, we act accordingly in our actions from there.

One side believes life begins at conception - from the moment of conception that is a unique, individual, human life and as such as entitled to all the protections of the law.

The other side believe life begins at some point after conception, up to and including birth.

People in the middle split the difference with the concept of viability.

All sides have their arguments. We, as individuals possessing agency, get to decide which argument we believe.

It's one of the moral questions of our time. We get to determine the answer via our political process.

I believe that life begins at conception. I also believe, as a general political philosophy that I should not use the instrument of law to force my beliefs on others (though I am free at all times to persuade them.) That puts me somewhere in the philosophical middle (my own tendency toward the middle way).

This thing called being human is a wonderful beautiful mess.

 

[adrina]

So you don't believe that women own their bodies.

Noted.

Do you think you own your body?

 

[windar]

It's one of the moral questions of our time. We get to determine the answer via our political process.

The problem is that the political process is one where vocal minorities who care about a single issue can get their way. There is gerrymandering and equal Senate representation for large nad small states. And most people don't vote just on one issue. Ireland got to hold a referendum on abortion and legalized it by a vote of close to 2-1. Polls suggest the result would be similar in the US, though by a smaller margin perhaps.

I think making public policy on these emotional and philosophical points that no one can prove is a bad idea. I look, first and foremost, at the practical aspects. Will making abortion illegal stop it? It will not, anymore than making drugs illegal stopped people from taking them. You now have tiny pills that can produce abortions and account for the majority of abortions now. Will people obtain them, legally or illegally? Of course they will. Drug War 1.0 was a dismal failure as most people now realize. Let's not have 2.0.

 

[adrina]

Again why is it you pansy ass motherfuckers can't simply say "yes!"

You'd rather sacrifice yourselves than to say women have ownership rights over their own bodies?

Holy cow.

^^^^^

 

[icanhelp1]

Again, why can't the government compel you to donate your organs or provide material physical support to preserve a li

So you don't believe that women own their bodies.

Noted.

Do you think you own your body?

Do you believe that life and personhood, where a soul is mated with a fertilized egg, begins at conception?

 

[Paul_Chance]

The problem is that the political process is one where vocal minorities who care about a single issue can get their way. There is gerrymandering and equal Senate representation for large nad small states. And most people don't vote just on one issue. Ireland got to hold a referendum on abortion and legalized it by a vote of close to 2-1. Polls suggest the result would be similar in the US, though by a smaller margin perhaps.

I think making public policy on these emotional and philosophical points that no one can prove is a bad idea. I look, first and foremost, at the practical aspects. Will making abortion illegal stop it? It will not, anymore than making drugs illegal stopped people from taking them. You now have tiny pills that can produce abortions and account for the majority of abortions now. Will people obtain them, legally or illegally? Of course they will. Drug War 1.0 was a dismal failure as most people now realize. Let's not have 2.0.

Yep, I would agree with you on all counts.

I think that if the USA had a national referendum system an abortion access bill of some sort would pass handily. (But we don't.)

I'm also a pragmatist when it comes to politics. Choose the "best" answer the majority of people support. Which was one of the key faults of Roe v. Wade (took what must be a political decision and made it a judicial decision, which led to significant swathes of people never accepting it. Compare that to most European states where their abortion laws were passed by their government as laws.

 

[schism666]

Triggered? Try frothing at the mouth angry.

Attacking? What are you doing to defend women and to defend people? You act like it doesn't effect you. It does.

yes triggered. you make a load of uninformed opinions about me without me even hinting at how i actually feel from me. i didn't "act" like anything at all. i responded to your mean spirited rants in this thread. unprovoked attacks on the people you want to help you probably isn't the best way to present your case.

 

[BluesDriver66]

No. You do not own your body in the U.S.A. Young men can legally be conscripted into the military to kill non-violent civilians of other nations and young women can forced to bear children against their will even if they are victims of incest or forcible rape. If you refuse to comply prosecution can result in imprisonment to execution.

It's human rights violations on the level of human chattel slavery.

 

[techiedude71]

You folks are over the top on this and perhaps rightly so. My wife is pretty angry too. I reminded her we live in NY and it still didn’t calm her.

All I can do is vote accordingly and hope for the best. I have a son and daughter and I’d like them to feel like they own their own bodies and not only because we live in a state that provides the illusion of such.

Maybe someday.

 

[Philthy_Phil]

Well... do you?

Yes. I am male and I live in a free country, not some 3rd world wannabe shithole.

 

[Philthy_Phil]

Yeah totally. It's a joke right. We must make it okay by making it a joke. Women as subcitizens is humorous.

Right?

No, it isn't.

Got a sandwich by any chance?

 

[LittleDixie]

Well... do you?

Yes. Insofar as your body can be owned, you are the one who owns it.

 

[LukSkyFokker]

Yes. Insofar as your body can be owned, you are the one who owns it.

So, no. Life doesn't come with a qualifier, idiot.

 

[adrina]

Do you believe that life and personhood, where a soul is mated with a fertilized egg, begins at conception?

I believe that all the moralizing is over emotional bullshit and that you can't compel people to provide physical material support to preserve another life against their will.

I also believe that most anti abortion fuckwits don't really care. They care about their emotions more.

Yep, I would agree with you on all counts.

I think that if the USA had a national referendum system an abortion access bill of some sort would pass handily. (But we don't.)

I'm also a pragmatist when it comes to politics. Choose the "best" answer the majority of people support. Which was one of the key faults of Roe v. Wade (took what must be a political decision and made it a judicial decision, which led to significant swathes of people never accepting it. Compare that to most European states where their abortion laws were passed by their government as laws.

Except that most people actually DO support Roe and abortion rights.

yes triggered. you make a load of uninformed opinions about me without me even hinting at how i actually feel from me. i didn't "act" like anything at all. i responded to your mean spirited rants in this thread. unprovoked attacks on the people you want to help you probably isn't the best way to present your case.

Pardon? So then you're more pissed off about me being pissed off than half the people in the US being told they are sub citizens?

That's nice.

No. You do not own your body in the U.S.A. Young men can legally be conscripted into the military to kill non-violent civilians of other nations and young women can forced to bear children against their will even if they are victims of incest or forcible rape. If you refuse to comply prosecution can result in imprisonment to execution.

It's human rights violations on the level of human chattel slavery.

So, tell me, when was the last draft?

You folks are over the top on this and perhaps rightly so. My wife is pretty angry too. I reminded her we live in NY and it still didn’t calm her.

All I can do is vote accordingly and hope for the best. I have a son and daughter and I’d like them to feel like they own their own bodies and not only because we live in a state that provides the illusion of such.

Maybe someday.

I'm pretty serious about half the US citizens being reduced to physical chattel. Weird that.

Yes. Insofar as your body can be owned, you are the one who owns it.

So then why the fuck are you arguing for anti abortion bullshit? Does a woman own her body or does a fetus?

 

[adrina]

No, it isn't.

Got a sandwich by any chance?

Bologna. Ha.

 

[colddiesel]

Men own their own bodies, because, while the government asserts rights to direct men to do various things, like serve in the military, get shot, die etc. the men still have the right to reject those orders. They will suffer for it but they still retain that right. Women have no rights over their bodies because male dominated institutions have determined how, why, when, and where they shall be bred or not. It is a perfect case of non-ownership.

After 157 years American society is slowly and painfully emerging from the era of black slavery. The powers of evil (Not a religious construct in this context) are going hell for leather to introduce a new slavery - the slavery of women.

 

[Lady2020]

I consider my body my own. Unfortunately, I recently had the experience that someone in authority over me at work thought she could touch my ass whenever she wanted. I naively thought at my age the days of sexual harassment were over. I took it up the chain of command. She touches my ass again and I'm filing a formal complaint. The company has been warned.

 

[neuroparenthetical]

Adrina - I'll give you the serious answer. From a legal perspective, the answer is "No". The "State", whatever the "State" is defined as depending on your will, owns you. The process of granting rights and reserving rights, is then negotiated through the messy process of "Government".

You do realize that Enlightenment-era political philosophy emphatically rejected that idea though, right? And that most western governments allegedly accept its general precepts?

The anti-monarchical, anti-nobility paradigm was that the only legitimate governments were those that were created by the will - and therefore the consent - of the people who were to be governed by them. Those people, in creating those governments, had significant leeway in deciding which powers, and how much power, to give them. Philosophers hotly debated the threshold question of whether "the people" could not ever legitimately, morally grant a government certain powers. A consensus was never reached.

This gave rise to limited governments with enumerated powers. The United States government remains one of the most famous examples, complicated though it was (and remains) by federalism. The people - or, more honestly, the states/colonies - came together and formed a government that most definitely did not have, control, and own everything. It was granted certain powers. The states and the people surrendered certain powers and rights. The government was not legally allowed to exercise any powers not granted, nor abrogate any rights not surrendered.

If you're trying to forward some kind of realpolitik statement, then you probably shouldn't be using the language of "rights" at all. They're "privileges" at best, and barely even that.

 

[jaF0]

So... do you own your body or not?

Do you?

Not always, no ....


"The statement added that Brand was in a number of inpatient and outpatient mental treatment facilities in South Carolina and Florida since being found incompetent to stand trial in 2012 because of schizophrenia that psychiatrists thought could be treated by forcing him to take medicine and get help."

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/arti...mpetency-mix-up-arrested-again-in-sc-killings

 

[LittleDixie]

So then why the fuck are you arguing for anti abortion bullshit? Does a woman own her body or does a fetus?

The woman owns her body, the fetus owns it's body. Both are human beings with human rights. That's the argument.

I am not anti-abortion per se. In fact, I would say that I am pro-choice - to a point. I believe that "life" and "individuality" are grey areas. There isn't a meaningful distinct point where a developing person starts to be considered a person, but what you can say for certain is that every second that passes gets closer to that end state. So, I personally am more supportive of early abortion procedures and less supportive of late term abortions.

 

[ll74]

The woman owns her body, the fetus owns it's body. Both are human beings with human rights. That's the argument.

I am not anti-abortion per se. In fact, I would say that I am pro-choice - to a point. I believe that "life" and "individuality" are grey areas. There isn't a meaningful distinct point where a developing person starts to be considered a person, but what you can say for certain is that every second that passes gets closer to that end state. So, I personally am more supportive of early abortion procedures and less supportive of late term abortions.

The fetus is part of the woman. There is no independence until birth.

 

[domroger]

Yes for the moment as far as anyone does .
No if Wade v Roe is overturned .
As for what you do about it that is up to you .
If I was in that position ,no matter what state I was living in ,I would help organise protests and get behind any candidate who would pass abortion rights in state and congressional elections .
This may fail but remember that a large proportion of seats are won by less than 10 % of the vote ,and most politicians are afraid of upsetting large voting blocks .
Women outnumber men and while you will get some who will not follow you approx 70 % will and that is enough to swing a lot of seats .

 

[AmishPope]

Our Earthly flesh bodies belong to the Lord. On this there can be no debate.

 

[YDB95]

Again why is it you pansy ass motherfuckers can't simply say "yes!"

You'd rather sacrifice yourselves than to say women have ownership rights over their own bodies?

Holy cow.

Some of us haven't spoken up because we agree with the point you're making and we have nothing to add.

 

[LittleDixie]

The fetus is part of the woman. There is no independence until birth.

That's an opinion. I don't doubt that you believe it, but it is an opinion nonetheless.