Do you own your body?

[ll74]

I'm assuming that organ donation could be compelled under certain circumstances

 

[adrina]

I'm assuming that organ donation could be compelled under certain circumstances

What are those circumstances?

 

[ll74]

What are those circumstances?

Not sure. Just postulating

 

[adrina]

Not sure. Just postulating

Considering we are dealing with women's bodily automony and a right to own their own bodies, mere postulating is not enough. Specifics are required.

 

[ll74]

Considering we are dealing with women's bodily automony and a right to own their own bodies, mere postulating is not enough. Specifics are required.

I was just basing it on the previous comment.

The question would be why are women treated differently and the true answer there is that they are required for child bearing.

I support full abortion rights of the woman until birth.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Curious.

Then why can't the government compel organ donation?

The question isn't why can't. The government can - we just, in most of the western world, choose not to.

In Germany, as we speak, they're debating legislation to make organ donation mandatory (with an opt out clause). It's called the Transplantation Act and it has the support of most of the major German medical societies. Since Germany is a democracy the act is "presumed consent" with an opt-out clause (if a person objects to organ transplantation. It's not law yet, but it's seriously being considered because of the perceived net benefit to society.

It lays upon the foundation that the state has an interest in your body for the good of the state.

 

[adrina]

I was just basing it on the previous comment.

The question would be why are women treated differently and the true answer there is that they are required for child bearing.

I support full abortion rights of the woman until birth.

I get it, women gestate the fetus. But I don't believe that's why women are treated differently. In all honesty I 100% believe that if men were the ones to gestate, that given the current paradigm, abortion meds would be available at Starbucks.

So we have to wonder why we treat this question differently when it comes to women.

 

[adrina]

The question isn't why can't. The government can - we just, in most of the western world, choose not to.

In Germany, as we speak, they're debating legislation to make organ donation mandatory (with an opt out clause). It's called the Transplantation Act and it has the support of most of the major German medical societies. Since Germany is a democracy the act is "presumed consent" with an opt-out clause (if a person objects to organ transplantation. It's not law yet, but it's seriously being considered because of the perceived net benefit to society.

It lays upon the foundation that the state has an interest in your body for the good of the state.

Considering however in the US that organ donation must be signed off on before the fact, we are treating women like sub citizens, like slaves. To the fetus and the state.

Right now as it is, in the US we are going to give more rights to a corpse than a woman.

At least they have an opt out clause in Germany. No such luck in the US.

 

[ll74]

I get it, women gestate the fetus. But I don't believe that's why women are treated differently. In all honesty I 100% believe that if men were the ones to gestate, that given the current paradigm, abortion meds would be available at Starbucks.

So we have to wonder why we treat this question differently when it comes to women.

Good question - though I think if there were the ability for children bearing in either that you may not see the same dynamic at play. I think the concept came about because men were always the providers because the women were not capable during pregnancy.

I could be wrong, but I don't think you can accurately determine what would be because it just isn't reality.

 

[adrina]

Good question - though I think if there were the ability for children bearing in either that you may not see the same dynamic at play. I think the concept came about because men were always the providers because the women were not capable during pregnancy.

I could be wrong, but I don't think you can accurately determine what would be because it just isn't reality.

Question: do you realize you are asking me to set aside what I think for what you think. And there is no proof of either.

(Also I think you may need to rethink the supposition of women not capable of caring for themselves during gestation and pregnancy, do you really want to go there?)

So again, are you just favoring men because it's what you have been taught to do or can you actually look at things objectively?

 

[ll74]

Question: do you realize you are asking me to set aside what I think for what you think. And there is no proof of either.

(Also I think you may need to rethink the supposition of women not capable of caring for themselves during gestation and pregnancy, do you really want to go there?)

So again, are you just favoring men because it's what you have been taught to do or can you actually look at thinks objectively?

I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm giving my perspective. I honestly was just thinking out loud of what would the power dynamic be if both men and women could have the ability.

And I'm not favoring men....I'm saying that the situation occurs because a woman bears the weight of pregnancy most fully and the man is able to avoid it completely. It's just how it works in a human pregnancy

 

[adrina]

I'm not asking you to do anything. I'm giving my perspective. I honestly was just thinking out loud of what would the power dynamic be if both men and women could have the ability.

And I'm not favoring men....I'm saying that the situation occurs because a woman bears the weight of pregnancy most fully and the man is able to avoid it completely. It's just how it works in a human pregnancy

So, do you own your body?

 

[Paul_Chance]

Considering however in the US that organ donation must be signed off on before the fact, we are treating women like sub citizens, like slaves. To the fetus and the state.

Right now as it is, in the US we are going to give more rights to a corpse than a fetus.

At least they have an opt out clause in Germany. No such luck in the US.

Specifically, as in regards to abortion, the pro-life movement is driving to give the fetus "personhood". To say that the fetus is a "person" at conception and as such is entitled to all the rights that come with personhood. That is the legal drive at the extreme end. The dividing line between pro-life and pro-choice lays right there.

I don't have an answer to it myself. Contrary to what is often presented, "science" doesn't have the answer to the moral and legal question either. No definitive answer exists, or it would have been settled by now.

The setting aside of Roe v. Wade (and Casey v. Planned Parenthood), simply pushes the answer to the question back to the individual states to decide, in the fullness of their conscience, where they think personhood begins. We all get to participate in that great conversation/decision based on our vote, the allocation of our money, our personal actions, and our arguments. (I'm in a pro-choice state, California, and I'm fine with that.). If, at the end of the day, it leads to migration out of the pro-life states (voting with your feet), that is an option.

 

[ll74]

So, do you own your body?

Your question appears to be different than this one. I own my body as far as I don't. I know that no answer is adequate for you

 

[adrina]

Specifically, as in regards to abortion, the pro-life movement is driving to give the fetus "personhood". To say that the fetus is a "person" at conception and as such is entitled to all the rights that come with personhood. That is the legal drive at the extreme end. The dividing line between pro-life and pro-choice lays right there.

I don't have an answer to it myself. Contrary to what is often presented, "science" doesn't have the answer to the moral and legal question either. No definitive answer exists, or it would have been settled by now.

The setting aside of Roe v. Wade (and Casey v. Planned Parenthood), simply pushes the answer to the question back to the individual states to decide, in the fullness of their conscience, where they think personhood begins. We all get to participate in that great conversation/decision based on our vote, the allocation of our money, our personal actions, and our arguments. (I'm in a pro-choice state, California, and I'm fine with that.). If, at the end of the day, it leads to migration out of the pro-life states (voting with your feet), that is an option.

The answer is very clear.

How would you feel having a fetus determine your future? Realistically. No man can ever presume to know, that's just reality. We may all hem and haw at having issues with men making legislation for what they know nothing of, but that's the reality.

I'm curious, what did it feel like to you to know that your body was being used by a fetus to grow?

Is that a fair question? How is it not?

Regardless, what the anti abortion movement is demanding is that women gestate and give birth to a fetus - provide material physical support - to preserve the life of another.

Regardless of the cost to themselves.

And that says nothing of privacy - of the ability for self determination.

Why do we have so little regard for women?

 

[adrina]

Your question appears to be different than this one. I own my body as far as I don't. I know that no answer is adequate for you

Women, in this world. do not own their own bodies. That's the answer. You do. We don't.

 

[ll74]

Women, in this world. do not own their own bodies. That's the answer. You do. We don't.

Yes, I get that's what you're going for. I don't agree with abortion restrictions.

 

[adrina]

Yes, I get that's what you're going for. I don't agree with abortion restrictions.

Thank you.

Now I ask one more thing... to trust women. Regardless of your misgivings, just... trust women. Advocating is really really good. Trusting is... even better.

We'd be grateful for that.

 

[windar]

Specifically, as in regards to abortion, the pro-life movement is driving to give the fetus "personhood". To say that the fetus is a "person" at conception and as such is entitled to all the rights that come with personhood.

The rights of personhood don't include the right to live inside another person. If the pro-life crowd wants to propose that the fetus after removal be placed in a tank with nutrients that's another question.

 

[adrina]

Specifically, as in regards to abortion, the pro-life movement is driving to give the fetus "personhood". To say that the fetus is a "person" at conception and as such is entitled to all the rights that come with personhood. That is the legal drive at the extreme end. The dividing line between pro-life and pro-choice lays right there.

I don't have an answer to it myself. Contrary to what is often presented, "science" doesn't have the answer to the moral and legal question either. No definitive answer exists, or it would have been settled by now.

The setting aside of Roe v. Wade (and Casey v. Planned Parenthood), simply pushes the answer to the question back to the individual states to decide, in the fullness of their conscience, where they think personhood begins. We all get to participate in that great conversation/decision based on our vote, the allocation of our money, our personal actions, and our arguments. (I'm in a pro-choice state, California, and I'm fine with that.). If, at the end of the day, it leads to migration out of the pro-life states (voting with your feet), that is an option.

So... my question is again, do you own your body? All kinds of equivocations, all kind of rationalizations... but, again...

Do you own your body?

 

[Paul_Chance]

As a father, I do have a fetus that determined my future. Personally, I loved her from the moment I became aware of her existence. From that moment to this (forty-two years now) I made a ton of life altering decisions, all of them with her in mind. Yes, even when she was still in the womb. But that's just me.

My partner at the time eventually made life decisions that led to her being estranged from both of us and no longer being an active part in either of our lives, with no contact with her daughter for 30 years now.

Personally, if I was pregnant, I'd be awestruck by the responsibility and potential of the person (yes, I think it's a person from conception) growing inside of me.

I also don't own my body (legally). The state has an interest in it, that interest just takes different forms.

 

[adrina]

As a father, I do have a fetus that determined my future. Personally, I loved her from the moment I became aware of her existence. From that moment to this (forty-two years now) I made a ton of life altering decisions, all of them with her in mind. Yes, even when she was still in the womb. But that's just me.

My partner at the time eventually made life decisions that led to her being estranged from both of us and no longer being an active part in either of our lives, with no contact with her daughter for 30 years now.

Personally, if I was pregnant, I'd be awestruck by the responsibility and potential of the person (yes, I think it's a person from conception) growing inside of me.

I also don't own my body (legally). The state has an interest in it, that interest just takes different forms.

I think it's awesome that you take such an interest but I find it the height of hubris to even suggest your feelings are on par with the actual physical experience of the gestating woman.

This is the problem. You elevate your feeling above or at par with the actual physical experience of the woman. It is not the same and it cannot be the same. That is the basics of reality. Why you assume it to be so is a reflection of the imbalanced society we live in.

You may not think you own your body, but but you will never ever have to worry about someone laying claim to your organs, your body without your permission.

That you think there is a comparison between the two is... insane. To put it lightly.

 

[jaF0]

Now I ask one more thing... to trust women. Regardless of your misgivings, just... trust women.

I don't just trust anyone.

 

[adrina]

Then you gestate the fetuses.

 

[adrina]

So... not to be repititious... but do you own your body?