World War 2 could have ended earlier

[mayfly13]

Roosevelt (1943, Casablanca) declared that the only American objective was Germany's unconditional capitulation.

Word goes that many German leaders (within the Military, particularly) wanted a negociated (not unconditional) peace treaty.
But because during the back and forth talks, the only options put on the table by it's opponents was Unconditional surrender, the war was prolonged for a few more years and a few more millions of deaths.

 

[Wrong Element]

Roosevelt (1943, Casablanca) declared that the only American objective was Germany's unconditional capitulation.

Word goes that many German leaders (within the Military, particularly) wanted a negociated (not unconditional) peace treaty.
But because during the back and forth talks, the only options put on the table by it's opponents was Unconditional surrender, the war was prolonged for a few more years and a few more millions of deaths.

Non-insane elements in the German Army definitely wanted to sue for peace, hence the July 1944 assassination plot. But there wasn't going to be any negotiating with Hitler.

 

[HisArpy]

WWII couldn't end earlier because the ones in control weren't going to stop until they were totally defeated with no ability to continue.

Hitler would never have admitted defeat, which is why he suicided and his minions fled while they left their people to suffer and surrender. The Japanese should have admitted defeat and sued for peace immediately after Midway, but didn't because they hoped that somehow the tide of war could be turned even though it was obvious that the sleeping giant that was the US had fully awakened by that point.

There is a point in every conflict where it becomes obvious which side will eventually prevail. That point is often long before those in charge admit their defeat because their egos won't allow that admission.

 

[phrodeau]

Atomic bombs might have never been developed.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Atomic bombs might have never been developed.

United States Strategic Bombing Survey
Summary Report
(Pacific War)​

Washington, D.C.
1 July 1946​

United States
Government Printing Office
Washington : 1946​

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS-PTO-Summary.html

 

[Rightguide]

Roosevelt (1943, Casablanca) declared that the only American objective was Germany's unconditional capitulation.

Word goes that many German leaders (within the Military, particularly) wanted a negociated (not unconditional) peace treaty.
But because during the back and forth talks, the only options put on the table by it's opponents was Unconditional surrender, the war was prolonged for a few more years and a few more millions of deaths.

We wanted to make sure we weren't fighting the Germans in another twenty years. So we had to make sure they were completely vanquished and stripped of their ability to make war in the future. We didn't do that in 1918 and we learned from it.

 

[oggbashan]

United States Strategic Bombing Survey​

Summary Report​

(Pacific War)​

Washington, D.C.​

1 July 1946​

United States​

Government Printing Office​

Washington : 1946​

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS-PTO-Summary.html

That was because US firebombing of Japanese cities was causing more damage and deaths than either atom bomb did. The US had the capacity to destroy any medium-sized conurbation in Japan.

 

[Rightguide]

That was because US firebombing of Japanese cities was causing more damage and deaths than either atom bomb did. The US had the capacity to destroy any medium-sized conurbation in Japan.

Then it took a hundred aircraft, and now it only takes one.

 

[oggbashan]

Then it took a hundred aircraft, and now it only takes one.

But the Japanese had no hope of stopping a hundred aircraft at the time. The US air force could go wherever it wanted, losing more planes from mechanical failure than to Japanese air defences.

 

[icanhelp1]

We wanted to make sure we weren't fighting the Germans in another twenty years. So we had to make sure they were completely vanquished and stripped of their ability to make war in the future. We didn't do that in 1918 and we learned from it.

Now Mayfly is questioning how WWII ended.

 

[oggbashan]

Mayfly is just a traitor and spouter of unadulterated Russian propaganda.

 

[JohnEngelman]

The minimum conditions of a conditional surrender for the Axis needed to be the return of all the land Axis countries conquered during the War, and previously, like Korea and Taiwan. In addition, the leaders of Japan and Germany needed to be arrested and tried for war crimes. Hitler knew he had a date with the hangman, so he had no incentive to sign a conditional surrender.

 

[RachelWalsh]

WW2 was not good and I doubt I would have enjoyed it.

 

[oggbashan]

WW2 was not good and I doubt I would have enjoyed it.

I didn't, nor did my family - bombed out of their home in 1915 by a Zeppelin, and bombed out again in 1940.

 

[RachelWalsh]

I didn't, nor did my family - bombed out of their home in 1915 by a Zeppelin, and bombed out again in 1940.

I am sorry. I enjoy peace.

 

[BlueEyesInLevis]

Roosevelt (1943, Casablanca) declared that the only American objective was Germany's unconditional capitulation.

Word goes that many German leaders (within the Military, particularly) wanted a negociated (not unconditional) peace treaty.
But because during the back and forth talks, the only options put on the table by it's opponents was Unconditional surrender, the war was prolonged for a few more years and a few more millions of deaths.

How many millions of deaths did it prevent by not allowing Germany or Japan to regroup, rearm and resume their attacks on neighboring nations? And what about Germany's and Japan's efforts to build their own A-Bombs.

There are many alternative theories about WWII, but this is certainly one of the stupidiest.

 

[BlueEyesInLevis]

Atomic bombs might have never been developed.

"Never"?
This is like saying jet engines would never have been developed.

 

[BlueEyesInLevis]

United States Strategic Bombing Survey​

Summary Report​

(Pacific War)​

Washington, D.C.​

1 July 1946​

United States​

Government Printing Office​

Washington : 1946​

Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS-PTO-Summary.html

How many Japanese would have starved to death? How many POWs would have starved to death?
And how man more tens if not hundreds of thousands would have perished in vast areas of asia still held by the Japanese who were hoarding the food from those people?

"Opinions" on hypothetical history are like assholes... everyone has one and most of them stink.

 

[pecksniff]

WW2 was not good and I doubt I would have enjoyed it.

It was actually a lot of fun for Americans, if they were not serving overseas and received no death notices from the War Department. All the fighting was elsewhere, the massive government spending finally ended the last traces of the Depression, everybody had jobs, the Andrews Sisters and the Glen Miller Band (they died in the war, on a USO tour) were all the rage, there were war movies glorifying American heroes, etc., etc. For most people, the only real downsides were food and gasoline rationing and a rubber shortage (because the Japanese had occupied the rubber-producing countries of Southeast Asia).

 

[BlueEyesInLevis]

The minimum conditions of a conditional surrender for the Axis needed to be the return of all the land Axis countries conquered during the War, and previously, like Korea and Taiwan. In addition, the leaders of Japan and Germany needed to be arrested and tried for war crimes. Hitler knew he had a date with the hangman, so he had no incentive to sign a conditional surrender.

Its those last two sentences that shoots your theory down in flames.

 

[pecksniff]

It is interesting to speculate what would have happened if the 1944 plot to assassinate Hitler (dramatized in the film Valkyrie) had succeeded. That conspiracy was formed by German officers who saw clearly that Germany was going to lose, and the only way to avoid utter disaster was to negotiate peace with the Allies, on terms that would not require Germany to be invaded, conquered and occupied -- which Hitler was entirely too stubborn to do, so getting rid of him was the only chance it could happen. But the plot failed, and Germany was invaded, conquered and occupied. If they had killed him, could the new government have offered any peace plan the Allies would have accepted?

It is interesting that even in 1945, some leading Nazis clung to the illusion that the Allies would want to preserve the Nazi state in some form, just to keep order in Germany.

 

[Rightguide]

It is interesting to speculate what would have happened if the 1944 plot to assassinate Hitler (dramatized in the film Valkyrie) had succeeded. That conspiracy was formed by German officers who saw clearly that Germany was going to lose, and the only way to avoid utter disaster was to negotiate peace with the Allies, on terms that would not require Germany to be invaded, conquered and occupied -- which Hitler was entirely too stubborn to do, so getting rid of him was the only chance it could happen. But the plot failed, and Germany was invaded, conquered and occupied. If they had killed him, could the new government have offered any peace plan the Allies would have accepted?

It is interesting that even in 1945, some leading Nazis clung to the illusion that the Allies would want to preserve the Nazi state in some form, just to keep order in Germany.

They would have been wrong. There was no escaping the destruction of Germany.

 

[BlueEyesInLevis]

Now THIS is on somewhat firmer ground. Under that scenario, the Wehrmacht may very well have agreed to turn over not only conquered territories but would they turn over the Nazi hierarchy and Hitler's sycophants at the top if the Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffee as well? (Maybe) Would Stalin have every agreed to such a compromise? (Very very doubtful) What complicates this of course would be discovery of the death camps. Would the allies be willing to let the "good Germans" off by merely surrendering the SS and top Nazis? (probably)

 

[pecksniff]

They would have been wrong. There was no escaping the destruction of Germany.

They were in denial. Himmler and Goering even seem to have held out hopes of becoming Fuehrer, with Allied approval.

 

[Rightguide]

Now THIS is on somewhat firmer ground. Under that scenario, the Wehrmacht may very well have agreed to turn over not only conquered territories but would they turn over the Nazi hierarchy and Hitler's sycophants at the top if the Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffee as well? (Maybe) Would Stalin have every agreed to such a compromise? (Very very doubtful) What complicates this of course would be discovery of the death camps. Would the allies be willing to let the "good Germans" off by merely surrendering the SS and top Nazis? (probably)

By 1944 Britain was on the edge of bankruptcy and the allies had suffered greatly. I just don't believe they were ready for any kind of kindness toward Germany. In fact the Morgenthau Plan contemplated the "removal or destruction of all industrial plants and equipment in the Ruhr Valley. The British wanted it all to be moved to Britain to replace their destroyed factories. When Roosevelt was reminded that 40% of the German population could starve to death as a result of the plan he said he didn't care, then later denied saying so. There was a real hatred for the Germans among the allies. Roosevelt did say, "There are two schools of thought, those who would be altruistic in regard to the Germans, hoping by loving kindness to make them Christians again and those who would adopt a much 'tougher' attitude. Most decidedly I belong to the latter school, for though I am not bloodthirsty, I want the Germans to know that this time at least they have definitely lost the war."