If there is a Deep State, it's this and nothing else

[pecksniff]

It's not what Trump says it is. Check out The Deep State: The Fall of the Constitution and the Rise of a Shadow Government, by long-time Washington insider Mike Lofgren. The Deep State is a grouping of some (not all) federal agencies, plus some private corporations, mainly in Silicon Valley. It remains in power no matter how elections go. Its political function is to police the boundaries of the Overton Window and prevent serious consideration of anything that falls outside the "Washington Consensus" -- neoliberalism in economic policy, neoconservatism in foreign policy. That's frustrating to anyone who wants any fundamental change, but it's hardly alarming or sinister.

See also here, also by Lofgren:

There is little evidence that America will be saved by concealed and powerful forces in the manner of the shadowy Caped Crusader rescuing Gotham City from the deranged Joker, or, alternatively, that the rough-hewn populist good guy Trump is in mortal combat with the Deep State. It is true that he ran as a populist against elite institutions: the power centers of the 1 percent — Wall Street, Silicon Valley and the military-industrial complex — mostly supported his opponent. But his actions so far have strongly reinforced rather than weakened their position.

A glance at the membership of the president’s Strategic and Policy Forum shows they are flocking to his side, with masters of financial buccaneering like Stephen Schwarzman of the Blackstone Group and Jamie Dimon of JPMorgan Chase, along with Doug McMillon of retail giant Walmart. There is even an ex-governor of the Federal Reserve Board, Bush appointee Kevin Warsh. This is hardly a populist revolution of the kind preached by John Steinbeck’s Tom Joad.

 

[Rightguide]

Stop with the left-wing propaganda. The Deep State is as I have characterized it. It's the administrative state run by political elites whose interests no longer coincide with the political and economic interests of the American people as a whole.

 

[JohnnySavage]

Stop with the left-wing propaganda. The Deep State is as I have characterized it. It's the administrative state run by political elites whose interests no longer coincide with the political and economic interests of the American people as a whole.

He's an internet intellectual. Never had a thought in his head that someone else didn't put there. I'd love to see his opinion on something. Anything.

 

[phrodeau]

Pecksniff posts names, and Rightguide doesn’t.

 

[pecksniff]

Stop with the left-wing propaganda. The Deep State is as I have characterized it. It's the administrative state run by political elites whose interests no longer coincide with the political and economic interests of the American people as a whole.

All states are administrative. And any difference between the people's interests and the Deep State's is . . . not what you think it is, to put it mildly. The real Deep State takes its orders from Wall Street and Silicon Valley, i.e., from the plutocracy. Which is pretty much indifferent as between the Dems and the Pubs, but slightly favors the Pubs. The "elite" is not in Washington and is not strictly speaking political.

 

[pecksniff]

He's an internet intellectual. Never had a thought in his head that someone else didn't put there. I'd love to see his opinion on something. Anything.

Try this. Or this.

 

[pecksniff]

Pecksniff posts names, and Rightguide doesn’t.

Worse, it posts worthless bullshit from zero-credibility sites like RedState, TownHall and Free Beacon.

 

[LincolnDuncan]

Stop with the left-wing propaganda. The Deep State is as I have characterized it. It's the administrative state run by political elites whose interests no longer coincide with the political and economic interests of the American people as a whole.

So, when Republican presidents appoint supporters to career positions in the federal government, they aren't part of a deep state?

 

[pecksniff]

So, when Republican presidents appoint supporters to career positions in the federal government, they aren't part of a deep state?

They seem to think the Deep State is career bureaucrats, not presidential political appointees. But, really, who could be more innocuous than career bureaucrats?

 

[srgreene]

Stop with the left-wing propaganda. The Deep State is as I have characterized it. It's the administrative state run by political elites whose interests no longer coincide with the political and economic interests of the American people as a whole.

Yes, RightGuide, pecksniff's innocuous definition would seem to exclude and lobbyists NGOs which, while formally perhaps not part of the (informal) Deep State, are very much intertwined with it. It's a curious oversight on his part, one that just happens to favor his political views. Government of the people, for the people, and by the people is threatened when the likes of Zuckbucks can influence elections.

You are a true champion to continue the good fight here- where I admit it matters little- as long, and as effectively, as you have.

 

[pecksniff]

Yes, RightGuide, pecksniff's innocuous definition would seem to exclude and lobbyists NGOs which, while formally perhaps not part of the (informal) Deep State, are very much intertwined with it.

No, it does not exclude them. Nor does it exclude (some) private corporations. Taken together, they're The Establishment.

 

[srgreene]

No, it does not exclude them. Nor does it exclude (some) private corporations. Taken together, they're The Establishment.

Yes is does. Here is your definition of the Deep State:

The Deep State is a grouping of some (not all) federal agencies, plus some private corporations, mainly in Silicon Valley.

Your definition contained no mention of NGOs or lobbyists. Idiotically, you triumphantly note it does not exclude "(some) private corporations", which were specifically enumerated in your original definition. Talk about a straw man defense, lol.

There is quite a turnover between those two groups (NGOs and lobbyists) and government agencies. I wonder: was is simply convenient for you to exclude them from your purview, or was it ignorance. Your claim that, among corporations, it is mainly Silicon Valley is equally dubious. I think big defense contractors, that employ hundreds of thousands throughout the United States, are far more influential in government than is Silicon Valley. The same probably applies to corporate health care and big agriculture. While national defense is necessarily a government monopoly, excluding DoD, the existence of the Deep State, with the deep influence it has on the lives of Americans but which often has its own interests at heart, is a fairly good argument for smaller government in general.

Although it works through the intermediary of lobbyists, I also would include Big Labor in the Deep State. For example, unions have done a fairly effective job of keeping right to work laws off the books in many states. Less well known, but no less pernicious, is their influence with the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB). In the Browning-Ferris decision during the Obama years, unions prevailed on government to threaten to destroy the franchise business model. Under longstanding labor law, a company could be held responsible for its contractor’s employees only if it exercised “direct and immediate” control over their work conditions.

Unions complained that this made it more difficult to organize workers and draw corporations into labor negotiations. The Obama NLRB proceeded to hold in Browning-Ferris that a company was a joint-employer even if it exercised only indirect and limited control over another company’s workers. Browning-Ferris has no limiting principle, so a company could be a joint-employer merely because it required suppliers to provide benefits such as paid leave for new parents. Fortunately, after a well-publicizes beltway dust up, Trump's NLRB managed to overturn the previous board's ruling (Ref 1), which was a direct threat to the franchise model of business and to franchisees.

Funny, pecksniff, how you somehow don't want to include Big Labor in the Deep State. Gee, I wonder why that might be. Like most of what you say, sir, there is a superficial logic to your alleged insights. Drill down a little, and all you see is vacuousness.

1. https://www.natlawreview.com/article/nlrb-browning-ferris-unjustly-found-joint-employer

 

[pecksniff]

Yes is does. Here is your definition of the Deep State:



Your definition contained no mention of NGOs or lobbyists. Idiotically, you triumphantly note it does not exclude "(some) private corporations", which were specifically enumerated in your original definition. Talk about a straw man defense, lol.

There is quite a turnover between those two groups (NGOs and lobbyists) and government agencies. I wonder: was is simply convenient for you to exclude them from your purview, or was it ignorance. Your claim that, among corporations, it is mainly Silicon Valley is equally dubious. I think big defense contractors, that employ hundreds of thousands throughout the United States, are far more influential in government than is Silicon Valley. The same probably applies to corporate health care and big agriculture.

While national defense is necessarily a government monopoly, excluding DoD, the existence of the Deep State, with the deep influence it has on the lives of Americans but which often has its own interests at heart, is a fairly good argument for smaller government in general.

Like most of what you say, sir, there is a superficial appeal to your alleged insights. Drill down a little, and all you see is vacuousness.

The point is that it isn't anything like Trump or the RW says it is. It is not, for instance, something that could have spent four years trying to undermine the administration. It is something largely indifferent to who is president so long as it ain't the likes of Sanders.

 

[srgreene]

The point is that it isn't anything like Trump or the RW says it is. It is not, for instance, something that could have spent four years trying to undermine the administration. It is something largely indifferent to who is president so long as it ain't the likes of Sanders.

Oh, is that your "point"? Funny thing, you didn't mention that previously. Sheesh.