Thanksgiving, a national day of mourning for many

[WillJ8787]

Source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Mourning_(United_States_protest)

As many of us celebrate this day, it is also a national day of mourning for many indigenous peoples including the Wampanoag people who encountered the first European and Dutch settlers and ultimate were undermined, removed from their lands, treated harshly, imprisoned and even killed.

I include in my celebration of this day remembering these once great indigenous peoples who occupied this land that I live in thousands of years prior to my ancestors coming here. I remember their notion of giving thanks to the land and honoring ancestors and the genocide that continued as Europeans took these lands we now call North America.

 

[JohnnySavage]

They needed guns to defend themselves

 

[WillJ8787]

They needed guns to defend themselves

No, what they need was a belief system that was not in sink or in Ballance with the land. They needed a consumption ideology to match that of the settlers. They needed an ideology that allowed them to see other humans as "not human", "not people", "not civilized" to make it 100% ok to conquer, enslave and kill them. A more race centric and racist ideology like the settlers(Europeans and others) had.

Guns were just a by-product of the ideology.

 

[JohnnySavage]

The world would be a much peaceful place if the Chinese had never invented gunpowder.

 

[pecksniff]

They needed guns to defend themselves

They needed metallurgy. Native Americans eventually figured out how to use guns, which is not that difficult, but they never learned to make guns -- always had to buy or steal them from the palefaces.

Problem was, when the Euros arrived, Native Americans, even those of the most advanced civilizations, were still living in the Stone Age. Literally. Some cultures could make metallic jewelry, but non had metallic tools or weapons.

 

[BluesDriver66]

Worth a watch. Entertaining and informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euf-EQ8udYw&t=501s

https://external-preview.redd.it/B18ZfXYHuLkR6P0pzHxymukIAqLLAo27XOyNZgwb9eo.jpg?auto=webp&0eaac0fe

 

[Bud_Spencer]

Source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Mourning_(United_States_protest)

As many of us celebrate this day, it is also a national day of mourning for many indigenous peoples including the Wampanoag people who encountered the first European and Dutch settlers and ultimate were undermined, removed from their lands, treated harshly, imprisoned and even killed.

I include in my celebration of this day remembering these once great indigenous peoples who occupied this land that I live in thousands of years prior to my ancestors coming here. I remember their notion of giving thanks to the land and honoring ancestors and the genocide that continued as Europeans took these lands we now call North America.

I thought this was all done on Columbus Day? Are we supposed to feel bad for the Indians today, too?

 

[pecksniff]

I thought this was all done on Columbus Day? Are we supposed to feel bad for the Indians today, too?

In your case, every day would be appropriate.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

In your case, every day would be appropriate.

I'll put it on my calendar.

 

[WillJ8787]

They needed metallurgy. Native Americans eventually figured out how to use guns, which is not that difficult, but they never learned to make guns -- always had to buy or steal them from the palefaces.

Problem was, when the Euros arrived, Native Americans, even those of the most advanced civilizations, were still living in the Stone Age. Literally. Some cultures could make metallic jewelry, but non had metallic tools or weapons.

A great book that examines why Europe was so advanced in technology and places like North and South America were not is Guns, germs and steel by Jarad Diamond.

 

[pecksniff]

A great book that examines why Europe was so advanced in technology and places like North and South America were not is Guns, germs and steel by Jarad Diamond.

Reading it now, actually.

 

[Rightguide]

No, what they need was a belief system that was not in sink or in Ballance with the land. They needed a consumption ideology to match that of the settlers. They needed an ideology that allowed them to see other humans as "not human", "not people", "not civilized" to make it 100% ok to conquer, enslave and kill them. A more race centric and racist ideology like the settlers(Europeans and others) had.

Guns were just a by-product of the ideology.

Jesus, your mind is brimming with shit,

 

[Rightguide]

Not all American Indians mourn on this day. As I have already demonstrated in the other thread that assumed the same.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

Jesus, your mind is brimming with shit,

What Will needs is to read the real history of the Indians, not some Disnified, santized history. One with all of the torture, genocide, human sacrifice, slavery and brutality that was rife in their soceties.

 

[WillJ8787]

What Will needs is to read the real history of the Indians, not some Disnified, santized history. One with all of the torture, genocide, human sacrifice, slavery and brutality that was rife in their soceties.

Please provide sources to this history that I could read....I would love to read it to see for myself what it is.

Thanks

 

[Bud_Spencer]

Please provide sources to this history that I could read....I would love to read it to see for myself what it is.

Thanks

"Sick Societies" by UCLA Anthropologist Robert Edgerton is a good place to start:

https://www.amazon.com/Sick-Societi...03N3TUK2&revisionId=c6fe6af6&format=1&depth=1

 

[WillJ8787]

Jesus, your mind is brimming with shit,

Maybe you should read Guns, Germs and Steel. Gun development and technology in the world developed due to specific conditions...many of which had nothing to do with "intellectual superiority".

 

[pecksniff]

What Will needs is to read the real history of the Indians, not some Disnified, santized history. One with all of the torture, genocide, human sacrifice, slavery and brutality that was rife in their soceties.

How is any of that relevant to their loss of their land?

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

The day after Thanksgiving is a day of mourning over all the food and booze we consumed yesterday.

 

[WillJ8787]

How is any of that relevant to their loss of their land?

Thanks, I was just about to ask Did this very question.

 

[pecksniff]

There is no point in romanticizing or idealizing the Indians. They did not even "walk lightly on the land," they changed the landscape everywhere they lived. But every human population in history has been guilty in that regard.

American Colonies, by Alan Taylor, is a good source here.

 

[WillJ8787]

"Sick Societies" by UCLA Anthropologist Robert Edgerton is a good place to start:

https://www.amazon.com/Sick-Societi...03N3TUK2&revisionId=c6fe6af6&format=1&depth=1

Yeah, I've read this book. Edgerton is correct that a type of myth has been created by some folks that "primitives" (a pejorative term and considered xenophobia and racist) lived in "harmony" and didn't have any of the modern "ism's" described today. ...that these myths are just false. These myths are as false as the other significant myth(s) that " primitive peoples" are primitive, heathen, savage, noble Savage, etc.
But, this is beside the point I was making in the OP.

It(Edgerton and your point)has nothing to do with the idea that indigenous people today do mourn on Thanksgiving (some and I don't know how many) and that Indigenous did suffer from Colonization.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

There is no point in romanticizing or idealizing the Indians. They did not even "walk lightly on the land," they changed the landscape everywhere they lived. But every human population in history has been guilty in that regard.

American Colonies, by Alan Taylor, is a good source here.

Exactly my point. Will's post #3 is a fantasy world, a Rousseauvian fairy tale, a melodrama of the sinister Snidely Whiteman and the pure, unblemished Penelopy Tomahawk. The reality is that, had they our technology and we theirs, they wouldn't have hesitated to massacre us and take our land as we did theirs. That, after all, was their own history for thousands of years. And they sure as hell wouldn't be agonizing over it now.

The Central American tribes overthrown by the like of Cortez were even worse, with slavery and human sacrifice on an industrial scale. They were a mighty people, but they were doomed by their own assholery, with every weaker tribe around them sick to the back teeth of being brutalized, despoiled and enslaved by them. They were more than happy to join anyone who would put them to the blade, and did so.

 

[pecksniff]

Exactly my point. Will's post #3 is a fantasy world, a Rousseauvian fairy tale, a melodrama of the sinister Snidely Whiteman and the pure, unblemished Penelopy Tomahawk. The reality is that, had they our technology and we theirs, they wouldn't have hesitated to massacre us and take our land as we did theirs. That, after all, was their own history for thousands of years. And they sure as hell wouldn't be agonizing over it now.

Well, if two wrongs don't make a right, neither do a real wrong and a hypothetical one.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

Well, if two wrongs don't make a right, neither do a real wrong and a hypothetical one.

In a very real sense, we destroyed societies that were evil, genocidal and repressive when we settled here. Is it ever aceptable to overthrow a tyranny?