Eternally, adverbs

[LAHomedog]

Why are we giving up adverbs? Who makes up these silly rules and then degrees them as law?

All words are good words. Different types of words are also good words because there is no such thing as a bad word. People might use them poorly, what works for one artist does not necessarily work for another.

Dylan Thomas did not write, "Do not go into that good night." The genius of the poem is "Do not go gentle into that good night."

 

[SimonDoom]

Why are we giving up adverbs? Who makes up these silly rules and then degrees them as law?

As words are good words. Different types of words are also good words because there is no such thing as a bad word. People might use them poorly, what works for one artist does not necessarily work for another.

Dylan Thomas did not write, "Do not go into that good night." The genius of the poem is "Do not go gentle into that good night."

I think "Don't use adverbs" is a bit of false folklore. It's one of those things people say, but they don't do. It's more appropriate to say "Be careful in how you use adverbs." But that's true of any part of speech.

The example you gave is interesting, because "gentle" is an adjective, not an adverb. The adverb is "gently." This is an example of an action verb arguably being used as a linking verb. The word "gentle" in this case arguably is meant to be a complement of the implied subject "you" in this sentence. It's a bit like saying "The water from the faucet ran cold." You wouldn't say "The water from the faucet ran coldly." "Cold" modifies "water," not "ran." I think Dylan Thomas's sentence is similar.

 

[NotWise]

I think "Don't use adverbs" is a bit of false folklore. It's one of those things people say, but they don't do. It's more appropriate to say "Be careful in how you use adverbs." But that's true of any part of speech.

The example you gave is interesting, because "gentle" is an adjective, not an adverb. The adverb is "gently." This is an example of an action verb arguably being used as a linking verb. The word "gentle" in this case arguably is meant to be a complement of the implied subject "you" in this sentence. It's a bit like saying "The water from the faucet ran cold." You wouldn't say "The water from the faucet ran coldly." "Cold" modifies "water," not "ran." I think Dylan Thomas's sentence is similar.

You're going to have problems any time you try to do a grammatical analysis of poetry.

I think Thomas was describing you (gentle) rather than your action (gently), and that is the difference between an adjective and an adverb.

Fine line, isn't it?

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think "Don't use adverbs" is a bit of false folklore. It's one of those things people say, but they don't do. It's more appropriate to say "Be careful in how you use adverbs." But that's true of any part of speech.

The example you gave is interesting, because "gentle" is an adjective, not an adverb. The adverb is "gently." This is an example of an action verb arguably being used as a linking verb. The word "gentle" in this case arguably is meant to be a complement of the implied subject "you" in this sentence. It's a bit like saying "The water from the faucet ran cold." You wouldn't say "The water from the faucet ran coldly." "Cold" modifies "water," not "ran." I think Dylan Thomas's sentence is similar.

That was my first thought, but on reflection I suspect LAHomedog might be right in reading this one as an adverb. There is a history of using adjectival forms in the role of an adverb, especially in poetry or song.

In the same poem Dylan Thomas writes:

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

How does one parse "bright"? Usually it's an adjective, but in that stanza it seems to be functioning more as an adjective attached to "danced". "Brightly" would be the obvious choice for an adverb, but that breaks the meter and the rhyme with "light".

Elvis' "love me tender, love me true" is another familiar example: "tender" and "true" are being used as adverbs modifying "love".

 

[NotWise]

Elvis' "love me tender, love me true" is another familiar example: "tender" and "true" are being used as adverbs modifying "love".

It never occurred to me that popular song lyrics could be used as examples of good grammar.

 

[LAHomedog]

I think "Don't use adverbs" is a bit of false folklore. It's one of those things people say, but they don't do. It's more appropriate to say "Be careful in how you use adverbs." But that's true of any part of speech.

The example you gave is interesting, because "gentle" is an adjective, not an adverb. The adverb is "gently." This is an example of an action verb arguably being used as a linking verb. The word "gentle" in this case arguably is meant to be a complement of the implied subject "you" in this sentence. It's a bit like saying "The water from the faucet ran cold." You wouldn't say "The water from the faucet ran coldly." "Cold" modifies "water," not "ran." I think Dylan Thomas's sentence is similar.

Yes. You are correct. I quoted the Dylan Thomas poem because TO was talking about gently. But I could say, The water from the faucet ran coldly down his arm

 

[LAHomedog]

It never occurred to me that popular song lyrics could be used as examples of good grammar.

Hey! "I want to hold your hand..."

 

[SimonDoom]

That was my first thought, but on reflection I suspect LAHomedog might be right in reading this one as an adverb. There is a history of using adjectival forms in the role of an adverb, especially in poetry or song.

In the same poem Dylan Thomas writes:

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

How does one parse "bright"? Usually it's an adjective, but in that stanza it seems to be functioning more as an adjective attached to "danced". "Brightly" would be the obvious choice for an adverb, but that breaks the meter and the rhyme with "light".

Elvis' "love me tender, love me true" is another familiar example: "tender" and "true" are being used as adverbs modifying "love".

I think the examples you've given are examples of adjectives being used as adverbs for the sake of poetry. In "Love me tender" the word "tender" describes how he wants to be loved; it doesn't describe him or the implied "you." It should be "Love me tenderly," but nobody with any sense of poetry would advocate rewriting it that way.

My take is that the Dylan Thomas example is a bit more complex, and that it's an illustration of the inadequacy of the labels "adjective" and "adverb." English is a strange language with many irregular usages and the terminology of grammar isn't quite up to the task of describing them. The word "gentle" in that line is best understood, I think, as being nuanced, and encompassing two meanings. In part, it means "don't go gently." But it also means "when you go, don't be gentle." It's part of what makes it such a great line. It can't be captured by the usual grammatical analysis.

I think that's what makes great writing, whether it's prose or poetry, great. You can't say it any better. You can't explain it in a way that's any better than the line explains itself.

 

[LAHomedog]

My take is that the Dylan Thomas example is a bit more complex, and that it's an illustration of the inadequacy of the labels "adjective" and "adverb." English is a strange language with many irregular usages and the terminology of grammar isn't quite up to the task of describing them. The word "gentle" in that line is best understood, I think, as being nuanced, and encompassing two meanings. In part, it means "don't go gently." But it also means "when you go, don't be gentle." It's part of what makes it such a great line. It can't be captured by the usual grammatical analysis.

I think that's what makes great writing, whether it's prose or poetry, great. You can't say it any better. You can't explain it in a way that's any better than the line explains itself.

Also, it is evocative and tantalizes the mind's eye with images and meaning. I believe a lot of writers are so focused on the words it is easy to lose sight -- and yes, I did that on purpose -- of the images that the words evoke or create.

Great writing creates more than feelings and emotions. If it compelling it sets off fireworks of images and memories. Now, I am a visual-spacial so it is naturally the way I am going to react, and so many great writers are auditory-sequential thinkers and they are going to experience words and story telling differently.

I read the Dylan Thomas poem and I see images of a fiery lion in the winter raging against age, time and death. It never occurs to me what the grammatical structure of the sentence might be.

But that's me.

 

[SimonDoom]

It never occurs to me what the grammatical structure of the sentence might be.

But that's me.

I learned sentence diagramming in 7th grade. I enjoyed it. I still do. I look at words on a page in a spatial, visual way. Grammar to me isn't a bible, it's a key that unlocks a way of looking at and understanding words and how they fit together.

That's me.

 

[Bramblethorn]

My take is that the Dylan Thomas example is a bit more complex, and that it's an illustration of the inadequacy of the labels "adjective" and "adverb." English is a strange language with many irregular usages and the terminology of grammar isn't quite up to the task of describing them. The word "gentle" in that line is best understood, I think, as being nuanced, and encompassing two meanings. In part, it means "don't go gently." But it also means "when you go, don't be gentle." It's part of what makes it such a great line. It can't be captured by the usual grammatical analysis.

I think this might be the right answer. As well as the double meaning, I suspect it's also partly that the irregular usage gets the reader's attention; the mind lingers on "gentle" much more than it would have on "gently", and that changes how one receives the poem.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It never occurred to me that popular song lyrics could be used as examples of good grammar.

Pretty much by definition. A set of English-grammar "rules" that can't accommodate some of the best-known works in the English language is as defective as a chair that can't accommodate a human arse. It might look pretty and elegant, but it fails at what it's supposed to be doing.

 

[NoJo]

"Adverb" is nowadays subsumed under the "modifier" category -- it's a bit of an old-fashioned term.

I noticed a redundant adverb in my last story: "I stroked her cheek gently". That was dumb.

The issue with adverbs (and other modifiers, which include adjectives) like "gentle" is that they are often redundant.

My major adverbial crimes are committed when I try to describe the timing or pace of actions: I use "suddenly", "quickly", "immediately" etc. far too often.

 

[SisterJezabel]

I use adverbs in dialogue a lot more than not— "I really like the way your tongue..." she sighed as she climaxed for the seventeenth time.

However, I often will do a find of 'really' after a first draft and delete about 25 of them from the first 2000 words ;-)

 

[SimonDoom]

I noticed a redundant adverb in my last story: "I stroked her cheek gently". That was dumb.

.

That's not so bad. I can imagine a non-gentle sort of stroking, so the word "gently" adds some clarity.

My attitude about this sort of thing is to try to make the verbs do the heavy lifting. So I might change "stroked" to "caressed." Then "gently" would serve no purpose and could be eliminated with no loss of meaning at all.

 

[NC_Coastal]

When writing an adverb, it should send a little shock through your fingers that reminds you to ask yourself "Do I need this word? Really"

Donald Trump taught an important lesson in adverbs, without knowing what the hell he was saying.
"Bigly" is not a fucking word, dumbfuck.

 

[TadOverdon]

I got through a whole book with only ten uses of "easily." Seventeen "gentlys," though. Well...it's sex.

 

[Handley_Page]

Softly Softly, Sam, and you have an old BBC police procedural.

And a bloody good one it was too

 

[Nylonian]

Rather than necro a three-year-old topic that went in different directions.

Learning to live (almost) without adverbs. Are there any that you just can't, or don't want, to give up?

"Gently" is at the top of the adverbs I want on my freebie list.

Probably "dryly" or "wryly" as well for very brief remarks that are challenging to completely attribute attitude to by content or context alone. It's unnatural to type out "in a dry tone of voice" or describe expressions or gestures in order to avoid a single word.

I have a brief motto that guides me when I write: "Adverbs are best used like spices, sparingly and strategically."

 

[stickygirl]

This thread links nicely to the one asking about English exam results, because I couldn't have given an example of an adverb to save my life, which is why I got 4s for both my English GCSEs Honestly ... <- is that one?

 

[Nylonian]

This thread links nicely to the one asking about English exam results, because I couldn't have given an example of an adverb to save my life, which is why I got 4s for both my English GCSEs Honestly ... <- is that one?

LOL. That is indeed an adverb.

 

[stickygirl]

Yipee - I just used "wryly" as in
“What a cow.” Hannah sniffed wryly. “She knew I’d cry.”

 

[TadOverdon]

Yipee - I just used "wryly" as in
“What a cow.” Hannah sniffed wryly. “She knew I’d cry.”

"Wryly" is one I won't let go of altogether. It's an attitude and tone of voice that's hard to characterize in a word or two, and sometimes it matters.