Mexican Illegals, Eastern Europeans and Filipinos drive wages down

[mayfly13]

Mexican Illegals (US) Eastern Europeans (Western Europe) and Filipinos (Australia, NZ) drive wages down


In Australia and NZ, Filipinos are often used as part of a ponzi scheme to drive wages & work conditions down.
The areas I'm referring to are Construction, seasonal Fruit-picking& and Rest homes.

It goes like this:
----The Government mandates businesses to abide by 'safe staffing and workloads' mandates. So whenever businesses are in a position that their staff's workload is unsafe, they are mandated to advertise jobs and recruit more staff.
Which business owners do.
----But guess what? I have acquaintances (born and bred locally) who applied for those jobs, yet they got rejected, with all sorts of excuses.
And guess who those business owners employed in stead?
Nobody (so they continued working their existing staff to the bone) or Filipinos on temp. visas.

Filipinos, Eastern Europeans and Mexicans are willing to work unsafe workloads at abysmal minimum wages. And they set a standard for locals.
I don't blame them, I blame business owners.

Why don't Democrat politicians focus on deceptive practices of business owners?
Is their "if you oppose illegal immigration, you're a racist" just a ruse to deflect from the real cause?
Democrats are just as far Right and neoliberal as Reps.
They all work for the rich.

 

[YDB95]

Why don't Democrat [sic] politicians focus on deceptive practices of business owners?

Because any worker-protection legislation whatsoever gets shouted down as communistic?

 

[mayfly13]

Because any worker-protection legislation whatsoever gets shouted down as communistic?

oh yes, true.

Labor unions included.
over here nurses, lawyers and more skilled workers have their organizations that protect them, but the unskilled workers that I mentioned, don't.

How and when did Unions get dismantled worldwide?
They are vital, since the "let the free market regulate itself" "competition will drive wages up" has proven to be bullshit.

 

[bellisarius]

Many of the unions outlived their usefulness starting back in the 60's when OSHA and other federal agencies were created. From that point on they were no longer about safety and working conditions, but all about more money and benefits. In effect they priced themselves right out of work. The Autoworkers union is a prime example. Eventually unions such as the Teachers Unions, government workers unions, and SEIU will go the same route.

The exceptions are the various trade unions. Their members have to be certified to a certain level of competency to demand higher wages. So those unions are providing a value added service to the customers. As long as they're mindful of the economy they will most likely be around for a long time.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Many of the unions outlived their usefulness starting back in the 60's when OSHA and other federal agencies were created. From that point on they were no longer about safety and working conditions, but all about more money and benefits. In effect they priced themselves right out of work. The Autoworkers union is a prime example. Eventually unions such as the Teachers Unions, government workers unions, and SEIU will go the same route.

The exceptions are the various trade unions. Their members have to be certified to a certain level of competency to demand higher wages. So those unions are providing a value added service to the customers. As long as they're mindful of the economy they will most likely be around for a long time.

So you are claiming that Ford, GM and Chrysler never would never have introduced automation to the assembly line, if unions hadn't pushed up the wages eh?

BTW bellosaurus do you have some spare money to invest....really...I have this great idea for a machine that converts iron to gold.... I'm just a few bucks short of making a prototype, so I might be convinced to sell you some shares.....you could get in on the ground floor!!!

 

[bellisarius]

So you are claiming that Ford, GM and Chrysler never would never have introduced automation to the assembly line, if unions hadn't pushed up the wages eh?

BTW bellosaurus do you have some spare money to invest....really...I have this great idea for a machine that converts iron to gold.... I'm just a few bucks short of making a prototype, so I might be convinced to sell you some shares.....you could get in on the ground floor!!!

What came first, the chicken or the egg? You seem to enjoy putting words in other peoples mouths. Don't give up your day job, you suck at mind reading (reading comprehension as well).

 

[CornusKousa]

Filipinos, Eastern Europeans and Mexicans are willing to work unsafe workloads at abysmal minimum wages. And they set a standard for locals.
I don't blame them, I blame business owners.

Why? We get better labor at lower prices.

Nothing personal, just bidniz.

Why don't Democrat politicians focus on deceptive practices of business owners?

Such as?

Is their "if you oppose illegal immigration, you're a racist" just a ruse to deflect from the real cause?

No that is a ruse to deflect from their efforts to undermine the nation, our democracy and make sure big money has an endless supply of low/no skill labor.

Democrats are just as far Right and neoliberal as Reps.
They all work for the rich.

Working for the rich doesn't have shit to do with left or right wing.

Look at any socialist or communist nation out there and the old phrase "Some animals are more equal than others" immediately comes to mind.... yet you'd have a hard time arguing that communist aren't left wing.

Yea... the only honest and objective view on greedy corrupt fuckery is that it's a human thing, right and left.

oh yes, true.

Labor unions included.
over here nurses, lawyers and more skilled workers have their organizations that protect them, but the unskilled workers that I mentioned, don't.

IDK where "over here" is but it's similar here, mostly because there such an over abundance and endless supply of low/no skill labor pouring into the country makes unionization impossible. Unions lose their power when they can be replaced faster and for less than to dealing with unions.

How and when did Unions get dismantled worldwide?

When nations quit protecting their labor markets. Now if you're low/no skill labor? You're F'ed in the A. You absolutely need a skill set and know how to hustle it to live a comfy 1st world life in pretty much all of the 1st world now.

They are vital, since the "let the free market regulate itself" "competition will drive wages up" has proven to be bullshit.

It's proven to be bullshit??

It's inverse is certainly proving to be true.... why not give regulating immigration another chance? We all seem to have done better when low/no skill labor supply wasn't totally endless and free flowing, supporting that market forces are not at all bullshit.

Despite the lefts chants of "Diversity is our strength! Immigration and refugees are 100% wonders of the world that provide nothing but prosperity!!!" there are real world economic and social consequences of mass immigration and they aren't all rainbows n' unicorns.

Here in the former USA due to a lack of border and (D) efforts to undermine our customs and immigration law enforcement for the last 14 years, we have a MASSIVE surplus of low/no skill labor. Which like it or not is causing some negative consequences.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

The Autoworkers union is a prime example

What came first, the chicken or the egg? You seem to enjoy putting words in other peoples mouths. Don't give up your day job, you suck at mind reading (reading comprehension as well).

You just said the auto union is a prime example of a union outliving it's usefulness. Did you not?

But the real debate is, ( your chicken and egg scenario) would the companies have introduced automation to the assembly line, irrelevant of the union raising wages,or do you think the companies would have not introduced automation if the Unions had de-certified?

I can read and comprehend just fine, and the above is exactly what you just wrote, if your ability to express your ideas was difficult for you to put into words, I'd give you a pass, but you are one of the few RWCJ here on Lit who can actually articulate your thoughts into words.

So back to the question I asked....

"So you are claiming that Ford, GM and Chrysler never would never have introduced automation to the assembly line, if unions hadn't pushed up the wages eh?"

 

[Bud_Spencer]

You just said the auto union is a prime example of a union outliving it's usefulness. Did you not?

But the real debate is, ( your chicken and egg scenario) would the companies have introduced automation to the assembly line, irrelevant of the union raising wages,or do you think the companies would have not introduced automation if the Unions had de-certified?

I can read and comprehend just fine, and the above is exactly what you just wrote, if your ability to express your ideas was difficult for you to put into words, I'd give you a pass, but you are one of the few RWCJ here on Lit who can actually articulate your thoughts into words.

So back to the question I asked....

"So you are claiming that Ford, GM and Chrysler never would never have introduced automation to the assembly line, if unions hadn't pushed up the wages eh?"

I think you're partially right here. High wages certainly drove automation, but so did insane work rules, featherbedding and other costly aspects of union involvement. Wages are merely one aspect of the cost of a worker, and those direct costs plus loss of productivity militated the use of automation. So did external competition from Japanese car makers.

But these all make the OP's point, no? Keep importing millions of un- or low-skilled workers and wages will stay low, short-circuiting automation and keeping prodctivity low.

 

[oggbashan]

In the UK, Brexit is driving wages UP. The absence of foreign workers willing to work long hours for shitty pay means employers are having to offer more - particularly for HGV and delivery drivers.

 

[CornusKousa]

In the UK, Brexit is driving wages UP. The absence of foreign workers willing to work long hours for shitty pay means employers are having to offer more - particularly for HGV and delivery drivers.

RACIST!!! DIVERSITY IS OUR STRENGTH!!! SAY IT OR YOU'RE A NAZI!!!!!

 

[Bud_Spencer]

In the UK, Brexit is driving wages UP. The absence of foreign workers willing to work long hours for shitty pay means employers are having to offer more - particularly for HGV and delivery drivers.

The same thing happened here during Trump, and the working class finally saw real wage growth in decades. All of that is gone now, of course, with the tidal wave of illegals that are being allowed in.

 

[oggbashan]

The same thing happened here during Trump, and the working class finally saw real wage growth in decades. All of that is gone now, of course, with the tidal wave of illegals that are being allowed in.

We have the illegals who are crossing the channel in record numbers but they are NOT allowed to work and today the government announced that they will be sent to Albania for processing to see whether any (unlikely) have a genuine case for settlement in the UK.

What we DO have is hundreds of thousands of illegals who entered the UK by legal means at the time; students; tourists etc, who overstayed their visas. The Police are constantly finding them employed in shitty jobs but deporting them is made difficult by specialist lawyers who use every legal trick to delay deportations.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

We have the illegals who are crossing the channel in record numbers but they are NOT allowed to work and today the government announced that they will be sent to Albania for processing to see whether any (unlikely) have a genuine case for settlement in the UK.

What we DO have is hundreds of thousands of illegals who entered the UK by legal means at the time; students; tourists etc, who overstayed their visas. The Police are constantly finding them employed in shitty jobs but deporting them is made difficult by specialist lawyers who use every legal trick to delay deportations.

It's almost as if the West has AIDS, no? Its institutions seem to no longer be capable of defending themselves from crime, invasion, sedition, you name it.

Douglas Murray is, unhappily, right.

 

[oggbashan]

It's almost as if the West has AIDS, no? Its institutions seem to no longer be capable of defending themselves from crime, invasion, sedition, you name it.

Douglas Murray is, unhappily, right.

What we do have are laws to protect our citizens which are exploited by specialist lawyers to prevent the deportation of illegals including criminals.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

What we do have are laws to protect our citizens which are exploited by specialist lawyers to prevent the deportation of illegals including criminals.

Those type outnumber the bacteria we have in the US, and they're even more pernicious.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I think you're partially right here. High wages certainly drove automation, but so did insane work rules, featherbedding and other costly aspects of union involvement. Wages are merely one aspect of the cost of a worker, and those direct costs plus loss of productivity militated the use of automation. So did external competition from Japanese car makers.

But these all make the OP's point, no? Keep importing millions of un- or low-skilled workers and wages will stay low, short-circuiting automation and keeping prodctivity low.

Did the high wages/packages) drive automation, or did the Union just see the writing on the wall, and just got as much for the worker as it could before the robots showed up. After all, every single automation process developed, ended up in the lines, for everyone, the employees who did those jobs were gone. That process started in WW2.

AS to the foreign cars, (Toyota for reference) they were made on assembly lines too, by Union workers,and shipped overseas. At the time of their main market share grab, it was due more to the oil crisis than anything else. I think fuel mileage was first, followed by price second...and they did turn out to be remarkably reliable....

Also a 1972 Toyota Corolla weighed and cost half as much (if not more) than my 1972 Ford Gran Torino Sport did ( it also only went half as fast too...but I digress).

Last lets not forget, these wage deals were negotiated between the Union and the company....so there are two parties involved in this, not just the Unions. Seems some here just like to forget about the company, and just bash the Unions.

As to the OP's point, I am dubious of the ponzi scheme logic. There are several economic branches that intertwine around "wages'.

Seems the OP is trying to claim importing low wage works from poorer countries is a scheme to circumvent government regulations?

"----The Government mandates businesses to abide by 'safe staffing and workloads' mandates. So whenever businesses are in a position that their staff's workload is unsafe, they are mandated to advertise jobs and recruit more staff."

The above does not happen in Canada...and I doubt it does like described in New Zealand.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

Did the high wages/packages) drive automation, or did the Union just see the writing on the wall, and just got as much for the worker as it could before the robots showed up. After all, every single automation process developed, ended up in the lines, for everyone, the employees who did those jobs were gone. That process started in WW2.

AS to the foreign cars, (Toyota for reference) they were made on assembly lines too, by Union workers,and shipped overseas. At the time of their main market share grab, it was due more to the oil crisis than anything else. I think fuel mileage was first, followed by price second...and they did turn out to be remarkably reliable....

Also a 1972 Toyota Corolla weighed and cost half as much (if not more) than my 1972 Ford Gran Torino Sport did ( it also only went half as fast too...but I digress).

Last lets not forget, these wage deals were negotiated between the Union and the company....so there are two parties involved in this, not just the Unions. Seems some here just like to forget about the company, and just bash the Unions.

As to the OP's point, I am dubious of the ponzi scheme logic. There are several economic branches that intertwine around "wages'.

Seems the OP is trying to claim importing low wage works from poorer countries is a scheme to circumvent government regulations?

"----The Government mandates businesses to abide by 'safe staffing and workloads' mandates. So whenever businesses are in a position that their staff's workload is unsafe, they are mandated to advertise jobs and recruit more staff."

The above does not happen in Canada...and I doubt it does like described in New Zealand.

I think it was a combination of things that all contributed to the cost per vehicle produced: wages, work rules, featherbedding, low productivity, grievances, strikes. With automation, you don't have that to the same degree.

Importing low-skill workers does keep wages low at the bottom rungs of the ladder, though.

 

[mayfly13]

In the UK, Brexit is driving wages UP. The absence of foreign workers willing to work long hours for shitty pay means employers are having to offer more - particularly for HGV and delivery drivers.

I'm an immigrant myself, and I'm alarmed by the rise in racism and xenophobia in Australia, UK and Germany.

Western White superiority is responsible for half of it, but the other half....
When the standard of living of your own people are in shocking decline, how can you be expected to be charitable and nice towards those who are indirectly responsible?
I don't like it, but I understand it.

England did the right thing with Brexit.

 

[oggbashan]

I'm an immigrant myself, and I'm alarmed by the rise in racism and xenophobia in Australia, UK and Germany.

Western White superiority is responsible for half of it, but the other half....
When the standard of living of your own people are in shocking decline, how can you be expected to be charitable and nice towards those who are indirectly responsible?
I don't like it, but I understand it.

England did the right thing with Brexit.

I don't agree that immigrants are indirectly responsible but I know many people think that.

The jobs that many Europeans were doing before Brexit were mainly in the low paid tasks that were unattractive to UK residents - fruit picking, care home staff, hotel staff etc. Those jobs are still unattractive because of low pay, long hours, and poor working conditions. All of them now have massive labour shortages. Even before Brexit, many Europeans were leaving because the economies of their home countries e.g. Poland, were improving and employment in their own country was available - which it hadn't been.

Youth unemployment in some countries such as Spain, Portugal and Greece is still very high and some would like to work in the UK but can't because of our immigration rules.

But my local NHS units would collapse if immigrants weren't there. My oncologist is Greek; my Neurologist is Saudi Arabian; those nurses who give me chemotherapy are West Indian and Filipino; other consultants are Australian or South African. My dentist was Finnish married to a new British Citizen who was Swedish. My dentist now is Pakistani. I need them all.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

I don't agree that immigrants are indirectly responsible but I know many people think that.

The jobs that many Europeans were doing before Brexit were mainly in the low paid tasks that were unattractive to UK residents - fruit picking, care home staff, hotel staff etc. Those jobs are still unattractive because of low pay, long hours, and poor working conditions. All of them now have massive labour shortages. Even before Brexit, many Europeans were leaving because the economies of their home countries e.g. Poland, were improving and employment in their own country was available - which it hadn't been.

Youth unemployment in some countries such as Spain, Portugal and Greece is still very high and some would like to work in the UK but can't because of our immigration rules.

But my local NHS units would collapse if immigrants weren't there. My oncologist is Greek; my Neurologist is Saudi Arabian; those nurses who give me chemotherapy are West Indian and Filipino; other consultants are Australian or South African. My dentist was Finnish married to a new British Citizen who was Swedish. My dentist now is Pakistani. I need them all.

BTW, I hope and pray you're doing well, Ogg. We've crossed swords at times, but it's not personal. I wish you all the best in your struggles.

 

[oggbashan]

BTW, I hope and pray you're doing well, Ogg. We've crossed swords at times, but it's not personal. I wish you all the best in your struggles.

Thank you. At present I am waiting for the results of the latest scan to see whether chemotherapy has stopped the cancer for a while. But apart from some vision problems and unsteadiness on my feet I am healthier than I ought to be.

The only effect of the chemotherapy is loss/thinning of hair on my head and my beard, but both are growing back.

 

[mayfly13]

As a student I worked two summers apple picking in the UK, through some sort of program a friend had access to. Me and other students were the only foreigners in our bunker, the rest were Scots. On most farms we were driven to for work, I was hearing only native English.

I didn't make much money because I was physically unfit, but The Scots were very happy, they made lots of money.
So it was a lucrative business then, in England at least.

But now I read all sorts of stories about how Eastern Europeans are being duped into signing contracts for appaling work conditions and low pay on farms in Germany.

I don't agree that immigrants are indirectly responsible but I know many people think that.

The jobs that many Europeans were doing before Brexit were mainly in the low paid tasks that were unattractive to UK residents - fruit picking, care home staff, hotel staff etc. Those jobs are still unattractive because of low pay, long hours, and poor working conditions. All of them now have massive labour shortages. Even before Brexit, many Europeans were leaving because the economies of their home countries e.g. Poland, were improving and employment in their own country was available - which it hadn't been.

So I assumed that the dynamics are similar to how Filipinos have been used by employers, in Australia and NZ, to drive down work conditions and wages.

Over here Rest homes, Construction and Farm owners whinge and whine that they can't find staff , but they aren't willing to pay one dollar above minimum wage.
So naturally, they don't attract top-notch fit Australians for those jobs, and they also turn them down.

Yet instead of rising wages, they go overseas and employ Filipinos (not East Europeans, not Indians or other Asians, they prefer Filipinos because those folks don't complain about being over-stretched at work) on temporary visas, on minimum wage and they overstretch their workloads to the max.

The Filipino phenomenon is so bizarre, I hear that now they are increasingly being employed as cheap labor in Russia and other Eastern European !! countries too.

 

[Cubantripod]

oh yes, true.



How and when did Unions get dismantled worldwide?
They are vital, since the "let the free market regulate itself" "competition will drive wages up" has proven to be bullshit.

The market is regulating itself. When you dump a bunch of unskilled labor into a market, wages go down.

 

[oggbashan]

As a student I worked two summers apple picking in the UK, through some sort of program a friend had access to. Me and other students were the only foreigners in our bunker, the rest were Scots. On most farms we were driven to for work, I was hearing only native English.

I didn't make much money because I was physically unfit, but The Scots were very happy, they made lots of money.
So it was a lucrative business then, in England at least.

But now I read all sorts of stories about how Eastern Europeans are being duped into signing contracts for appaling work conditions and low pay on farms in Germany.

So naturally, they don't attract top-notch fit Australians for those jobs, and they also turn them down.

Yet instead of rising wages, they go overseas and employ Filipinos (not East Europeans, not Indians or other Asians, they prefer Filipinos because those folks don't complain about being over-stretched at work) on temporary visas, on minimum wage and they overstretch their workloads to the max.

The Filipino phenomenon is so bizarre, I hear that now they are increasingly being employed as cheap labor in Russia and other Eastern European !! countries too.

So I assumed that the dynamics are similar to how Filipinos have been used by employers, in Australia and NZ, to drive down work conditions and wages.

Over here Rest homes, Construction and Farm owners whinge and whine that they can't find staff , but they aren't willing to pay one dollar above minimum wage.

A few years ago I acquired a Chinese language newspaper printed in Ballarat in the 1860s. It is now in the Ballarat mining museum. At the time many Chinese labourers were employed in the goldfields on minimum wages and on short term contracts. If they found gold - they couldn't keep it.

In the 1950s and 60s, most Australian Chinese restaurants were staffed by descendants of those indentured miners.

When we were living in our first marital home and we had our first child, my wife was the only person in our small set of houses who was at home during the day in the summer. All the other women were picking strawberries or other fruit. She took in parcels and large post for 16 houses.

My brother lived a few miles from a turkey processing factory. All his children worked during school and university vacations at that factory, on piece work.

They became skilled and could earn £100 a day. When one became a university lecturer, he would still work some of his vacations. He reckoned that two weeks' work paid for a fortnight touring Europe.