"And" and "Me"

[8letters]

As part of my writing process, I do an editing pass where I look for "bad words" - words that I overuse or frequently misuse. I've added two new words to my "bad words" list for this editing pass, "and" and "me".

It's not that I overuse or misuse "and", it's that I get the comma or lack thereof before it frequently wrong. It should be "sentence number one, and sentence number two", not "sentence number one and sentence number two". Or I'll do a list with long entries and forget to put in the oxford comma.

"Me" I sadly too often write as a substitute for "my". Having my characters randomly talk like a pirate doesn't work. "I closed my eyes and ground me teeth."

The other words on my "bad words" list are "start", "begin/began", "there", "just", "still", "really", "then", "that", "going", "check", and "breath". I too often write "check" when I mean "cheek" - "I gave her butt check a squeeze." I'll write "breathe" instead of "breath" - "When I cupped her breasts, she let out a long breathe."

Do you have problems with the commas before "and"? Do you have words you frequently substitute for other words? What words are on your "bad words" list?

 

[AlinaX]

I'm forever arguing with grammar checkers about commas. Not that I'm strict about using the Oxford comma, but the programmer in me uses commas for precision and the author in me strips them out ruthlessly.

 

[SimonDoom]

As part of my writing process, I do an editing pass where I look for "bad words" - words that I overuse or frequently misuse. I've added two new words to my "bad words" list for this editing pass, "and" and "me".

It's not that I overuse or misuse "and", it's that I get the comma or lack thereof before it frequently wrong. It should be "sentence number one, and sentence number two", not "sentence number one and sentence number two". Or I'll do a list with long entries and forget to put in the oxford comma.

"Me" I sadly too often write as a substitute for "my". Having my characters randomly talk like a pirate doesn't work. "I closed my eyes and ground me teeth."

The other words on my "bad words" list are "start", "begin/began", "there", "just", "still", "really", "then", "that", "going", "check", and "breath". I too often write "check" when I mean "cheek" - "I gave her butt check a squeeze." I'll write "breathe" instead of "breath" - "When I cupped her breasts, she let out a long breathe."

Do you have problems with the commas before "and"? Do you have words you frequently substitute for other words? What words are on your "bad words" list?

I'm good with grammar and spelling but I'm a mediocre proofreader, so I do this stuff all the time unconsciously, and I don't always catch it during the editing process. It drives me crazy.

I think you can go easy on yourself on the "comma and and" stuff. I always use serial commas, and I am fairly consistent about using commas to join two independent clauses, but if the clauses are short I think no comma is needed, and there are style guides that agree.

E.g., "I came and I went." No comma is needed there.


I get there and their and they're wrong and your and you're wrong all the time, even though I know exactly when to use them, just because I'm not always paying attention to what my fingers are doing on the keyboard.

I totally agree with you about trying to get rid of "began" and "started," even though I am guilty of both sins.

I try sometimes to rid my prose of use of the past progressive tense (e.g., "I was walking") and replace it with the simple past tense (e.g., "I walked."). More often than not, simple past is better.

I interchange "peek" and "peak."

 

[Kumquatqueen]

'And' is my top word for eliminating when I edit. No matter how much I think I'm avoiding it, my first drafts always have long sentences with a few ands, and need to get split into two sentences, or a semicolon or dash used, or a better conjunction used. Some 'ands' are allowed to stay, some with an Oxford comma, even. I like commas. They really help for reading aloud.

I've noticed some of my published stories have a full stop where there should be a comma - really should get my eyes tested...

 

[KeithD]

There's no absolute relationship between the word "and" and a comma (like with what I just wrote). You normally put a comma before "and" if you are linking two independent (each with both a subject and a predicate) clauses. Otherwise you usually don't.

The vase jiggled toward the edge of the shelf, and it fell to the floor, smashing into a thousand pieces. (two independent clauses)

The vase jiggled toward the edge of the shelf and fell to the floor, smashing into a thousand pieces. (one independent clause and one dependent clause)

U.S. publishers tend to be very strict with this distinction so that the reader isn't taken off on a false trail.

SimonDoom's example: "I came and I went." (short clauses--although the authorities on this don't say how short they need to be to fulfill this.)

 

[8letters]

I forgot "lie" and "lay"! I'll occasionally use one when I should have used the other.

I've also discovered that "Jill laid out on the chaise lounge" will bring out the grammar nazis, even though to me it's an American idiom I've used correctly.

 

[KeithD]

It's happening to Jill (intransitive), so the verb stems from "lie," not "lay" (happening to some other other object--transitive). The past tense of "lie" is "lay." The past tense of "lay" is "laid."

Thus, "Jill lay out on the chaise lounge."

The real problem is that it's awkward wording no matter what is correct.

And to use proper grammar isn't being a Nazi. Those calling grammarians Nazis are just trying to cover laziness to learn proper grammar and looking for a cheap means to claim equal standing. A lot of that goes on on the Internet.

 

[SimonDoom]

I forgot "lie" and "lay"! I'll occasionally use one when I should have used the other.

I've also discovered that "Jill laid out on the chaise lounge" will bring out the grammar nazis, even though to me it's an American idiom I've used correctly.

This one is easy to forget, but I think it's a pretty basic matter of good grammar rather than a discretionary matter where strict enforcement invokes Naziism. I think you'll find nearly all professional editors and writers would agree with this.

Intransitive: lie, lay, lain

Transitive: lay, laid, laid

On the subject of "and": I probably overuse it, but I like it. It's part of my style. I will sometimes start sentences with "and" or "but," and to me it works as a matter of style.

One other thing with your sentence about Jill: you can get rid of the word "out." It's a common idiom, but it's unnecessary. It doesn't add anything. Just say she lay on the lounge.

If you use commas idiosyncratically, you've got a lot of company among great authors, many of whom regularly flout standard comma conventions.

As always with these issues, I tend to think that the basic two "rules" are that, rather than slavishly following all the rules, you should 1) try to at least know what they are and understand how they apply, and 2) when you bend the rules, understand what you are doing and why. Write knowingly and consciously.

 

[gordo12]

As part of my writing process, I do an editing pass where I look for "bad words" - words that I overuse or frequently misuse. I've added two new words to my "bad words" list for this editing pass, "and" and "me".

It's not that I overuse or misuse "and", it's that I get the comma or lack thereof before it frequently wrong. It should be "sentence number one, and sentence number two", not "sentence number one and sentence number two". Or I'll do a list with long entries and forget to put in the oxford comma.

"Me" I sadly too often write as a substitute for "my". Having my characters randomly talk like a pirate doesn't work. "I closed my eyes and ground me teeth."

The other words on my "bad words" list are "start", "begin/began", "there", "just", "still", "really", "then", "that", "going", "check", and "breath". I too often write "check" when I mean "cheek" - "I gave her butt check a squeeze." I'll write "breathe" instead of "breath" - "When I cupped her breasts, she let out a long breathe."

Do you have problems with the commas before "and"? Do you have words you frequently substitute for other words? What words are on your "bad words" list?

My first was "as". I've managed to work past that one. And, suddenly, just are the next culprits. I don't do well with the commas on the "and" issue either. Grammarly keeps wanting me to ditch them and put in semi-colons. I remember reading somewhere that you shouldn't lean too heavily on semi-colons.

I just finished an editing pass and managed to add two commas to a sentence and Grammarly didn't make a peep. With them or without. I went with what seemed to be natural pauses.

 

[8letters]

It's happening to Jill (intransitive), so the verb stems from "lie," not "lay" (happening to some other other object--transitive). The past tense of "lie" is "lay." The past tense of "lay" is "laid."

Thus, "Jill lay out on the chaise lounge."

The real problem is that it's awkward wording no matter what is correct.

And to use proper grammar isn't being a Nazi. Those calling grammarians Nazis are just trying to cover laziness to learn proper grammar and looking for a cheap means to claim equal standing. A lot of that goes on on the Internet.

It's an idiom, which I mentioned.

Lay out - Idioms by The Free Dictionary (link)
1. To lie or recline outside, especially so as to sunbathe. (A common variation of the more proper "lie out.")
I'm going to lay out for a while to work on my tan.
I think the girls are all laying out.
2. To spread something out on a flat surface. A noun or pronoun can be used between "lay" and "out."
We laid out the map to plan the next stage of our trip.
Please lay my tools out beside me.
3. To detail or explain something explicitly, such as a plan or concept. A noun or pronoun can be used between "lay" and "out."
When he began laying out his campaign strategy, we all realized that he actually had a shot at winning.
When I pitched the proposal to my boss, he asked me to lay it out for the board of directors.
4. To spend or invest a certain (typically large) amount of money on a particular person or thing. A noun or pronoun can be used between "lay" and "out."
But with students or their parents laying out tens of thousands of dollars on college tuitions, many have begun to question how necessary those degrees are in the first place.
I'm not keen to lay several hundred dollars out on a house we're only renting.
5. To chastise, rebuke, or upbraid someone very severely. A noun or pronoun can be used between "lay" and "out."
The politician laid the reporter out for what he contends were inflammatory and libelous questions.
The boss laid out the entire staff over our progress on the troubled project.
6. To render someone unconscious or prostrate on the ground as a result of a violent physical blow. A noun or pronoun can be used between "lay" and "out."
Tammy laid out the burglar with a single punch to the abdomen.
He threatened to lay me out if I ever made remarks like that about his girlfriend again.
7. To prepare or arrange someone's body before a wake, funeral, or burial. A noun or pronoun can be used between "lay" and "out."
I was grateful for how peaceful the funeral director made my father look when he laid him out in his casket.
In her will, she said she wanted to be laid out in all of her finest jewelry.

I've used the first case several times in my other stories, but I'm going to use the third case in this story.

Z had also laid out in detail what she was expecting from me as her secret boyfriend and how she saw it working.

 

[ElectricBlue]

"and then" is my first word search during edit. It was annoying to discover how many times I used that combination unnecessarily - now it's either/or but I rarely need both. I catch myself immediately now, as I write.

I used to start too many sentences with "And" at one point. I though it was vaguely artful in terms of pace or something, but then I got annoyed with myself and stopped doing it. Here's lookin' at your "style", Mister Doom... .

"Just" bugs me too, but I just can't quite get rid of it. Just kidding. I can always get rid of it, but not just yet. It's a daft word really, what does it actually mean?

I always run a draft through Worditout, to generate a word cloud of the hundred most used words in a story (excluding the common itty bitty words like "the"). That's been invaluable, probably the best little self-edit tool I've found.

https://worditout.com/word-cloud/create

 

[Fervid]

Don’t you guys find that less than perfect grammar often advances the emotional impact and realism of a story, especially in dialogue? Contractions, partial sentences, and the repeated use or omission of “and“ to rush the reader through action scenes, all seem effective to me. Sometimes using ellipses to indicate silence or a delay feels right.

I’m a dabbler, not a professional author. I have no training in fiction. But grammatically perfect prose often sounds too stilted for the type of stories we write here.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Don’t you guys find that less than perfect grammar often advances the emotional impact and realism of a story, especially in dialogue? Contractions, partial sentences, and the repeated use or omission of “and“ to rush the reader through action scenes, all seem effective to me. Sometimes using ellipses to indicate silence or a delay feels right.

I’m a dabbler, not a professional author. I have no training in fiction. But grammatically perfect prose often sounds too stilted for the type of stories we write here.

There's a difference between narrative and dialogue. Most of what we're talking about here is related to the narrative, where unecessary repetition (which is really what we're on about) is noted by discerning readers (not by all readers, I grant you) as a distraction.

I for one think that the more I can take "writers tics" out of my prose, the better it will be, therefore easier, smoother, to read. Good grammar is good grammar because it improves comprehension, improves readability. Poor grammar gets in the way. Why settle for second best when a few simple editing tricks makes you a better writer?

 

[Rustyoznail]

I really, really want to cut down on my really over the top reliance on “really”. It’s really not necessary, and I really don’t know why I use it so much.

 

[KeithD]

I learned decades ago to question every use of the word "that." More recently, I've been beating "now" out of my content.

 

[BrokenSpokes]

Just one....

Do you have problems with the commas before "and"? Do you have words you frequently substitute for other words? What words are on your "bad words" list?

Whenever I finish a work, I do a search for the word "just" and invariably delete more than 75% of the instances I find.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Then, there, that, are whittle down worthy words.

 

[Emirus]

Try and get it right, if possible.

I think the vast majority of writer’s try and get their punctuation correct but, in the main, providing there are no glaring errors and it’s a good read I’m not too bothered. I think the percentage of writers on this site with a degree in English and/or a job editing must be very, very, very small compared with the number of writers as a whole.

As I’ve said in the heading, try to get it right. I try to get it right but there’s been occasions, after it’s published, when I’ve read through a story and see an error/errors. If it’s bad I’ll submit an edit. If not, and it doesn’t affect the story, I won’t waste Laurel’s time.

There are, of course, some writers who don’t give a shit. Most of them write shit stories. The ones who write really good stories I forgive, although I wish they would make an effort to improve. But perhaps they do. I don’t know.

 

[8letters]

I think the vast majority of writer’s try and get their punctuation correct but, in the main, providing there are no glaring errors and it’s a good read I’m not too bothered. I think the percentage of writers on this site with a degree in English and/or a job editing must be very, very, very small compared with the number of writers as a whole.

As I’ve said in the heading, try to get it right. I try to get it right but there’s been occasions, after it’s published, when I’ve read through a story and see an error/errors. If it’s bad I’ll submit an edit. If not, and it doesn’t affect the story, I won’t waste Laurel’s time.

There are, of course, some writers who don’t give a shit. Most of them write shit stories. The ones who write really good stories I forgive, although I wish they would make an effort to improve. But perhaps they do. I don’t know.

I spend a lot of time trying to get rid of every single error in my story. And I got this comment two days ago:

...Of note, I especially appreciate the respect that you have for your readers demonstrated by the careful editing. I'm no English major but so many otherwise skilled authors on Literotica seem to find editing less important, somehow...

People will notice your errors to some extent. It may just be that they have to re-read a sentence a couple of times to understand it. IMHO, an error-free story is an easy-to-read story.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I think I notice an error or two in every story of mine, sometimes only a year later. No-one's ever mentioned it.

Recently-published books I read invariably also have at least one proofing error in, so I figure I'm doing OK. I have one story where I'll ask for an edited version to be posted when I post the sequel, but otherwise I don't think it's worth Laurel's time.