What is the right category for non-sexual ENF stories?

[Rob_Howard]

I recently posted a story that contains gradual stripping of a girl in a game show. The girl is just naked and embarrassed, without any kind of sexual arousal from the predicament. I put the story in NonConsent/Reluctance category and it is my lowest rated story yet.

I tried to analyse what was wrong in the story that garnered me such low ratings. Then I realised that I didn't describe anything sexual like 'hardened nipples' or 'moist pussy' in it, which is unlike the rest of my stories. But, that was the point of the story, a girl reluctantly getting naked in front of everyone, and being embarrassed about it.

I have always enjoyed stories or movie scenes like this and I thought that this was the kind of story I would wanna read from some other author. Should I keep such non-sexual ENF stories in Exhibitionists and Voyeur section? But what if girl is neither an exhibitionist, nor the story is from the POV of a voyeur? She is just naked and embarrassed and nothing else.

 

[SimonDoom]

Stories like that should be posted in Exhibitionist and Voyeur.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

OK, first off, there’s no hard-and-fast answer to this. There are arguments each way.

I skimmed your story and thought it deserved better than the score it had. That said, while you specifically asked about categories, it’s clear that you weren’t happy with the score and were wondering if the category might have led to that.

Regardless of plot, characterizations, etc, one thing stood out for me when I was reading it. Not mocking or judging, but the story is set in India and there are a lot of Indian terms which simply wouldn’t resonate with many people from other places. Look at this paragraph, for instance:

"Let me explain you the rules of this game," said the host, "There will be 20 questions to reach the amount of Rs. 2 crore. Starting with Rs. 1000 for the getting the 1st question correct which we also call the zeroth hurdle. Then, Rs. 1 lakh (100,000) in the first hurdle which is at 10th question. Then Rs. 50 lakh at 15th question, which is the second hurdle, and the final hurdle of course is at 20th question for Rs. 2 crore."

I suspect that somebody from India would find that easy to understand. That’s good; they can concentrate on the plot. Not being from there, I on the other hand found that rather confusing at first reading and had to study it to understand.

Keep in mind that many Lit readers are just looking for light entertainment. For many readers from outside your fine nation, the (to them) strange, cultural-specific terminology might be frustrating, a possible reason for the low score. Just a guess.

 

[Rob_Howard]

Thanks for having a glance at my story!

I do agree with what you said about using lot of terms specific to Indian English speakers. I first dropped the idea of using them. But then I thought it would be authentic or different, because that's how the numbers are termed in Indian English.

I might try writing a similar non-sexual ENF story in the future minus the region-specific vocabulary and see how it's received when I still keep it in NonCon/Reluctance category.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I agree using Indian numbering and phrases is an important part of authenticity and making a scene feel real, but if you want international readers then it's crucial to help them as much as possible with your grammar and some context (I write in UK English, sometimes made easy, sometimes going into local dialects, knowing most readers will give up on the latter).

For example, this is how I'd rewrite that extract:

"Let me explain the rules of this game," said the host.

"There will be twenty questions to reach the maximum amount of winnings, which is two crore rupees. That's right, twenty million, two crore! You'll be starting with 1000 rupees for the getting the first question correct - which we call the 'zeroth hurdle'. Then, one lakh - one hundred thousand rupees! is the first hurdle, which comes at the tenth question. Then the second hurdle comes at the fifteenth question - but that wins you 50 lakh, yes, five million rupees!

And finally, the final hurdle of course is at question number twenty, for that amazing life-changing amount of Two! Crore! Rupees!"

The format with 'hurdles' will need to be carefully explained if they're important to the game, otherwise ditch them. It sounds a bit like 'Who wants to be a millionaire/Slumdog Millionaire" though I think we just say 'level' in English because a hurdle is something to jump over but in the game they are numbers you can fall back to.

I've spelt out Rs. as people won't know how to pronounce that. Shorter sentences can help understanding, along with making clear that two crore is an amazing prize.

Also many people won't know what ENF is - after a night of thought I'm guessing embarrassed naked female?

Non-con/reluctance readers want sex. If just seeing someone is the thrill, that's voyeurism and Exhibitionism/Voyeur readers should appreciate it much more.

 

[lovecraft68]

Best bet is Exhibitionist/Voyeur followed by fetish because ENF/CFNM and the like is a fetish with Erotic Couplings being an option as its a catchall type category.

But even in EV if there is no sex at all I'm not sure how it will pan out. I'm not too familiar with the category, but this is a site where the expectation among most readers is some form of sex.

 

[Rob_Howard]

Thanks Kumquatqueen for your suggestions and inputs! I will be careful henceforth to use a neutral English vocabulary.

Yes ENF is Embarrassed Nude/Naked Females. Most of the stories consist of woman stripping naked forcibly, hesitantly, unwillingly or accidentally. It's different from exhibitionism in the sense that the woman might not be comfortable with her nudity or might not be necessarily aroused by being naked in front of others. There might not be any sexual tension or action, but just humiliation. Such stories are actually rare.

But most of the ENF stories are anyway kept under Exhibitionist/Voyeur category because the woman eventually gets aroused by her own exposure, discovers her exhibitionist nature or there might be some voyeur enjoying her nudity.

I realise now that NonCon/Reluctance readers actually expect some kind of sexual action.

 

[Rob_Howard]

Thanks lovecraft68 for your insights.

I avoided Fetish because I feel that category is something wild and with a no-sex story like mine there is definitely gonna be disappointment among readers.

As for EV, there are tons of stories which don't have any sex at all, but simply consists of a daring Exhibitionist girl trying be naked under a trench coat in public, or taking the risk of hiding naked in a fairly public place, without being caught. The girl may or may not get aroused, but usually the ratings are good for such kinds of stories.

Most of my earlier stories (I have written only eleven stories so far), had exhibitionism mixed with some kind of sexual tension and action in EV and it was received well. I experimented with a non-sexual ENF story and it didn't pan out well. But I will try experimenting once or twice again.

 

[Rustyoznail]

I’ve edited a few stories by a couple of Indian authors and it’s a challenge striking a balance between authenticity and general readability. Mind you, I have the same issue writing Australian…

As far as your story goes, Lovecraft is correct. Sex is expected, and that goes in every category. My lowest scoring story just had a blowjob, and it disappointed people.

 

[lovecraft68]

My lowest scoring story just had a blowjob, and it disappointed people.

Tough crowd, personally I'm never disappointed with just a blowjob.

 

[SimonDoom]

Yes ENF is Embarrassed Nude/Naked Females. Most of the stories consist of woman stripping naked forcibly, hesitantly, unwillingly or accidentally. It's different from exhibitionism in the sense that the woman might not be comfortable with her nudity or might not be necessarily aroused by being naked in front of others. There might not be any sexual tension or action, but just humiliation. Such stories are actually rare.

.

To determine whether it belongs in E & V, don't just consider the point of view of the woman being stripped. Presumably somebody is stripping her, and they are doing it for some kind of sexual satisfaction, OR it could be sexually a turn on for the reader, even if the perpetrator isn't doing it for sexual purposes. Like "female prison" movies where the women get stripped by nasty prison guards. The movies are erotic even if there's no sex.

The question to ask yourself is to think carefully about what's being done and why and what is the nature of the eroticism in the story.

It sounds to me like either Non-Con or Exhibitionism and Voyeur, but it all depends on what the essence of the eroticism in the story is. Eroticism isn't the same as sex.

 

[RejectReality]

Tough crowd, personally I'm never disappointed with just a blowjob.

I think people sometimes misinterpret the willingness to vote on a single page story as dissatisfaction. Yes, the commentators are often vocally dismissive of short stories, but the same way additional exposure ( from say, a toplist ) opens you up to a lot more 4s, so does having the entire story and the voting form on one page.

I typically don't bring any of those single act 2500 word stories here. I just leave them where they originate. Don't usually post them on the third site either, because it has the same longer length bias as Lit.

I don't know how much of the downvoting here is because of brevity and how much is naturally accumulating 4s, but I do know that I get equivalent or even better than average response to a quickie on the one site. They absolutely prefer shorter stories ( Even having a category for Flash and Microfiction which do reasonably well )

So, I just feed them all of those, and every so often collect them into an anthology for posting here to lackluster results

 

[lovecraft68]

I think people sometimes misinterpret the willingness to vote on a single page story as dissatisfaction. Yes, the commentators are often vocally dismissive of short stories, but the same way additional exposure ( from say, a toplist ) opens you up to a lot more 4s, so does having the entire story and the voting form on one page.

I typically don't bring any of those single act 2500 word stories here. I just leave them where they originate. Don't usually post them on the third site either, because it has the same longer length bias as Lit.

I don't know how much of the downvoting here is because of brevity and how much is naturally accumulating 4s, but I do know that I get equivalent or even better than average response to a quickie on the one site. They absolutely prefer shorter stories ( Even having a category for Flash and Microfiction which do reasonably well )

So, I just feed them all of those, and every so often collect them into an anthology and post them here to lackluster results

I'm so damn wordy my 'short" anthology stories go 7-9k. So on one hand there is only three stories in each, but on the plus side its a 20k e-book they're purchasing so they're getting their money's worth.

Many platforms refuse to sell stories less than 3k, especially for the usual $2.99 price because they found people were returning them because they didn't realize how short they were and chargebacks are a PIA for sites to deal with.

They don't care if its a freebie, but if you're charging they want something that would be the equivalent to maybe 1.5 lit pages

Because of this a lot of anthologies are people dropping four or five of the 2500 or so quickies into one e-book.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Thanks for having a glance at my story!

I do agree with what you said about using lot of terms specific to Indian English speakers. I first dropped the idea of using them. But then I thought it would be authentic or different, because that's how the numbers are termed in Indian English.

I might try writing a similar non-sexual ENF story in the future minus the region-specific vocabulary and see how it's received when I still keep it in NonCon/Reluctance category.

I understand your wish to keep it authentic. The challenge becomes how to do so while not breaking the flow of a non-Indian's reading.

I had a slightly similar problem when I wrote a story called 'The Magdalene'. The story was set just post-WW1 and the money problems of a young woman were central. I tried short explanations here and there in the text, but also included a short introduction at the beginning, explaining the old-style British currency with pounds, shillings and pence, noted the value of some coins specifically mentioned in the story and gave an estimate of what an ordinary worker would have been earning.

In your case, perhaps a short outline of the traditional Indian numbering system might help, something like:

India's currency is the Rupee, one Rupee (written 'Rs. 1') being worth just under 1½ cents US. India uses decimal counting, but some ancient valuations are still in common use. Readers will see the following:

Rs. 1,000, = $13.50 US
One lahk of Rupees = Rs. 100,000 = $1,350 US
50 lahk of Rupees = Rs. 5,000.000 = $67,100 US
2 crore of Rupees = Rs. 10,000,000 = $134,200 US​

​

Forgive me if I have the details wrong; just trying to show it conceptually. I think it would allow you to retain the Indian flavour - which I think is fun - without potentially derailing a foreigner reader's stream of thought, allowing them to enjoy the story more without having to do any rereading. Having the $US value of the final prize might also give some indication of why your heroine was willing to strip off in public.

One last point. To me, the term 'zeroth' is very strange and, frankly, it set my teeth on edge. That's one you might want to omit entirely unless it's central.

Good luck, whichever way you go.

 

[Rob_Howard]

To determine whether it belongs in E & V, don't just consider the point of view of the woman being stripped. Presumably somebody is stripping her, and they are doing it for some kind of sexual satisfaction, OR it could be sexually a turn on for the reader, even if the perpetrator isn't doing it for sexual purposes. Like "female prison" movies where the women get stripped by nasty prison guards. The movies are erotic even if there's no sex.

The question to ask yourself is to think carefully about what's being done and why and what is the nature of the eroticism in the story.

It sounds to me like either Non-Con or Exhibitionism and Voyeur, but it all depends on what the essence of the eroticism in the story is. Eroticism isn't the same as sex.

You articulated it better than me. It isn't about sex, but eroticism. There's something erotic about a woman finding herself naked in front of people, and being embarrassed about it, just like the 'female prison' movies where the strip search is humiliating and some people find it erotic, though no one in the scene is actually sexually aroused.

Perhaps I need to find a good POV and better reflect the erotic part in my writing while writing such stories.

 

[Rob_Howard]

I understand your wish to keep it authentic. The challenge becomes how to do so while not breaking the flow of a non-Indian's reading.

I had a slightly similar problem when I wrote a story called 'The Magdalene'. The story was set just post-WW1 and the money problems of a young woman were central. I tried short explanations here and there in the text, but also included a short introduction at the beginning, explaining the old-style British currency with pounds, shillings and pence, noted the value of some coins specifically mentioned in the story and gave an estimate of what an ordinary worker would have been earning.

In your case, perhaps a short outline of the traditional Indian numbering system might help, something like:

India's currency is the Rupee, one Rupee (written 'Rs. 1') being worth just under 1½ cents US. India uses decimal counting, but some ancient valuations are still in common use. Readers will see the following:

Rs. 1,000, = $13.50 US
One lahk of Rupees = Rs. 100,000 = $1,350 US
50 lahk of Rupees = Rs. 5,000.000 = $67,100 US
2 crore of Rupees = Rs. 10,000,000 = $134,200 US​

​

Forgive me if I have the details wrong; just trying to show it conceptually. I think it would allow you to retain the Indian flavour - which I think is fun - without potentially derailing a foreigner reader's stream of thought, allowing them to enjoy the story more without having to do any rereading. Having the $US value of the final prize might also give some indication of why your heroine was willing to strip off in public.

One last point. To me, the term 'zeroth' is very strange and, frankly, it set my teeth on edge. That's one you might want to omit entirely unless it's central.

Good luck, whichever way you go.

That's a good way to give some brief description at the beginning, if the concepts are integral to the story.

Yeah, you're right about the last point about 'zeroth'. I need to keep in mind that it's more a technical jargon and people are not used to such kind of words.