Heads up: The parties changed. Both of them.

pecksniff

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One of the Kennedys, I think it was a woman, once remarked, "I would hate to have to explain to a foreigner the difference between Republicans and Democrats." Well, that was the early '60s -- the parties were not so much ideological as tribal groupings, and each had its liberal and conservative wings -- in those days "liberal" and "conservative" being defined mainly by their attitude to race relations. Most Southern blacks, the few who could vote, voted R because the GOP was the party of Lincoln, and most Southern whites voted D for the exact same reason, hence, the "Solid South" for the Dems. In other parts of the country that division did not have the same salience -- but at the national level FDR did have to tread very carefully to keep the Southern Dems behind the New Deal, he couldn't afford to let it be perceived as something done for the blacks.

In the 1960s, everything changed. The Dems decided to back the civil rights movement. The Pubs responded by going the other way -- Goldwater came out against any federal desegregation legislation, as a "states' rights" matter, and then Nixon employed his Southern Strategy of dogwhistling. And then there was a substantial change of constituencies -- conservative white Dems migrated over to the GOP (some of them, by way of George Wallace's American Independent Party), and liberal Republicans fled to the Dems. It took time, of course, but the process was pretty much complete by the late '80s. The Solid South is now solidly red.

So please stop invoking the Democratic Party's racist history, which was real, as being anything now relevant, which it is not.

Buckminster Fuller, an inventor who fancied himself a philosopher, used to do a rope trick on the college lecture circuit. He had a length of silk cord, cotton cord, hemp cord spliced together; tied a loose knot at one end, slid it along, and asked "Is it still the same knot?" I'm not sure what point he was making, certainly nothing political, but political parties can work that way -- a party can substantially change its constituency and ideology and still remain the same organization with the same name and the same institutional memory.

What we have now is a truly ideological party system, liberals in one party and conservatives in the other. It is not a symmetric change -- the Dems are still more of a coalition of interest groups than anything else, while the Pubs have become a true ideological party (exactly what ideology is now at issue in an intra-party war between old-guard pro-business conservatives and an insurgency of right-populist nationalists -- which would not be happening if it were still possible for the party to be the loose inclusive ideological "big tent" both parties once were). But it does matter. It is the reason why American partisan politics have become so polarized and acrimonious. Back in the 50s, Senator Robert Taft might have wanted to roll back the New Deal, but it was impossible for the matter to get as hot as things get now.
 
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One of the Kennedys, I think it was a woman, once remarked, "I would hate to have to explain to a foreigner the difference between Republicans and Democrats."

When you read shit like this, you know you're dealing with an unserious, uneducated, ill informed individual, and needn't go any further.
 
When you read shit like this, you know you're dealing with an unserious, uneducated, ill informed individual, and needn't go any further.

It's an authentic quote, heard it on NPR, don't remember the woman's name.
 
It quotes a dumb person who thinks every Republican is a Rino, which isn't true and never has been.

The term was not even current in the early '60s. But it is perfectly true that the GOP has not always been as RW or as ideologically homogenous as it is now. There were once "Rockefeller Republicans," fiscally conservative but socially liberal, and they mattered; no longer.
 
The term was not even current in the early '60s. But it is perfectly true that the GOP has not always been as RW or as ideologically homogenous as it is now. There were once "Rockefeller Republicans," fiscally conservative but socially liberal, and they mattered; no longer.

A minority is liberal. There is no such thing as "fiscally conservative but socially liberal." One can't be both, economically speaking.
 
What we have now is a truly ideological party system, liberals in one party and conservatives in the other.

Liberals and conservatives are in the same party.

We have a party of authoritarian leftist, and a party of everyone else.

the Dems are still more of a coalition of interest groups than anything else,

And liberty is not at all a priority for them, this is why they are not liberals. :)
 
Yes they do, Trump's defeat of the 12 national Rinos proves it.

To whom are you referring? I doubt any of them would have qualified as Rockefeller Republicans. The fact that the term "RINO" was coined at all shows how far the ideological homogenization of the GOP has gone since the 1960s, when it would have been regarded as meaningless by anybody but the party's John Birch Society wing.
 
The term was not even current in the early '60s. But it is perfectly true that the GOP has not always been as RW or as ideologically homogenous as it is now. There were once "Rockefeller Republicans," fiscally conservative but socially liberal, and they mattered; no longer.


Why does that man continue to bring up that shoddy, tired argument?

As soon as LBJ signed off the Civil Rights Act of 1964, many of those rightwing racist Democrats defected to the GOP, a party who started accepting those clowns. Let's not forgot Lee Atwater's Southern Strategy which increased their racist membership.

The GOP has gotten progressively worse, it's now a shell of what it used to be.
 
The GOP is certainly the more authoritarian of the two, these days.

Not even close. Certainly not economically, but at this point not even socially.

They aren't trying to consolidate power and authority, they are not the ones trying to force their politics and social controls at the federal level.

:)
 
Not even close. Certainly not economically, but at this point not even socially.

They aren't trying to consolidate power and authority, they are not the ones trying to force their politics and social controls at the federal level.

:)

Of course they are. Forcing their politics at the federal level, as against the public's preferences, is exactly what they have been trying to do since 1994.
 
Of course they are. Forcing their politics at the federal level, as against the public's preferences, is exactly what they have been trying to do since 1994.

Denying the authoritarians their power grabs, letting people keep more of their labor/wealth and deregulation out of things the feds have no bidnizz in anyhow, is not the same as forcing their politics at the federal level anymore than atheism is a religion. :)

It is in fact liberation from overreaching government authority....that is actual liberalism.
 
. . . letting people keep more of their labor/wealth . . .

Well, the GOP sure as shit ain't about that! It is not something you can do by lowering taxes; it is certainly not something you do by lowering taxes on the rich.
 
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Well, the GOP sure as shit ain't about that!

That was literally the biggest thing they did while they were in control during Trumps admin.

It is not something you can do by lowering taxes;

That's all that must be done to achieve this.

it is certainly not something you do by lowering taxes on the rich.

Sure it is.

The rich are people, letting them keep more of their wealth and labor is a good thing.

And in the name of equality, especially under the law, we should all be taxed equally too.
 
That was literally the biggest thing they did while they were in control during Trumps admin.



That's all that must be done to achieve this.



Sure it is.

The rich are people, letting them keep more of their wealth and labor is a good thing.

And in the name of equality, especially under the law, we should all be taxed equally too.

If you ever feel you're getting paid less than you earned, that is not because of the tax-deduction section of your paycheck, it is because whoever signed the check has appropriated an unfair share of your labor value.
 
Then why aren't the people keeping any more of their wealth/labor then they were before? And they're not.

They absolutely are....unless the (D)'s raised taxes and I missed that.

The GOP and Trump lowered the federal tax rates on most tax brackets and increased the standardized deductions effectively lowing federal taxes on everyone in 2017 and as a result in 2018, everyone got to keep a larger % of their money.

That's a well documented and irrefutable fact.

The (R)'s are economically far, FAR more liberal than the (D)'s.

It's not even fucking close.

Socially is the only place and only in certain areas where you guys might be able to argue you're the more liberal party. Letting anyone with a pulse cast as many votes as they want, open borders, gay marriage is an issue with our conservative faction but most of us don't even think marriage is any of the states fuckin' bidnizz.

But the other 99.8% of ya'lls politics? Absolute totalitarian control freaks.....(D)'s aren't liberal about much of anything. they openly bash and detest pretty much any liberty of any kind as alt-reich racism.
 
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