Ultra-Wealthy and Taxes

[Ramone45]

I had the Today Show on in the background and they were talking about Bezos, Musk and Buffet paying zero income taxes. I don't really know what to make of this because the story was structured to give a slanted view. The other issue I was thinking about was. why are we mad at the rich if they are not breaking any laws (and they aren't)?
Our politicians, like a half century of Joe Biden*, gave us this system. They are the proper focus of this issue, not the rich guys.
Also, rich guys notwithstanding, Americans are obscenely overtaxed.
How does the government have the resources to do all the ridiculous shit thatey have over the past 18 months?
Also, Andrew Cuomo gave Elon Musk 3/4 of a Billion Dollars for a failed solar panel plant. He gave this money to a man who pays no income taxes.

 

[CandK_inSE]

I had the Today Show on in the background and they were talking about Bezos, Musk and Buffet paying zero income taxes. I don't really know what to make of this because the story was structured to give a slanted view. The other issue I was thinking about was. why are we mad at the rich if they are not breaking any laws (and they aren't)?
Our politicians, like a half century of Joe Biden*, gave us this system. They are the proper focus of this issue, not the rich guys.
Also, rich guys notwithstanding, Americans are obscenely overtaxed.
How does the government have the resources to do all the ridiculous shit thatey have over the past 18 months?
Also, Andrew Cuomo gave Elon Musk 3/4 of a Billion Dollars for a failed solar panel plant. He gave this money to a man who pays no income taxes.

It's really easy for those guys to show that they have zero income. They can throw their "salary" into 100% "deferred compensation" and live off the interest on their wealth.

Yet they guy who sweats and bleeds 90 hours a week running his small business and might make $100k in a good year is whacked at 28% income, 15% Social Security, and at least 10-15% more with state and local taxes.

 

[pecksniff]

Also, rich guys notwithstanding, Americans are obscenely overtaxed.

I think taxes are probably lower here than in most industrialized countries.

 

[pecksniff]

why are we mad at the rich if they are not breaking any laws (and they aren't)?

Probably because they get to decide what the laws are, and it's not supposed to work that way.

 

[CornusKousa]

I had the Today Show on in the background and they were talking about Bezos, Musk and Buffet paying zero income taxes. I don't really know what to make of this because the story was structured to give a slanted view. The other issue I was thinking about was. why are we mad at the rich if they are not breaking any laws (and they aren't)?
Our politicians, like a half century of Joe Biden*, gave us this system. They are the proper focus of this issue, not the rich guys.
Also, rich guys notwithstanding, Americans are obscenely overtaxed.
How does the government have the resources to do all the ridiculous shit thatey have over the past 18 months?
Also, Andrew Cuomo gave Elon Musk 3/4 of a Billion Dollars for a failed solar panel plant. He gave this money to a man who pays no income taxes.

It's basic wealth envy.

They play off of the public's fee fees because they don't understand these guys net worth is not how much money they have and they don't pay income taxes because they don't have an income.

And the rich guys pay the majority of taxes in the US. Reality is Bezos pays more in taxes every year than one the 99%'s will earn in a lifetime.

How? They printed money that's how.

Probably because they get to decide what the laws are, and it's not supposed to work that way.

Good thing it doesn't work that way.

You're attempt to alleviate politicians of the one responsibility they have notwithstanding of course.

 

[Rightguide]

He's just taking advantage of existing tax law. Americans are way over taxed at every level. Here are some facts:

In 2017, 143.3 million taxpayers reported earning $10.9 trillion in adjusted gross income and paid $1.6 trillion in individual income taxes.

The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers rose to 21 percent, from 19.7 percent in 2016. Their share of federal individual income taxes rose to 38.5 percent, from to 37.3 percent in 2016.

In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent).

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/

 

[RoperTrace]

Can't speak to Bezos and Musk, but Buffett is on record of having paid personal income taxes every year since 1944. He reportedly paid 1.9 million in income taxes in 2016, and the same year gave $2.86 Billion to charity. IRS didn't allow him to claim 2.85 Billion of that deduction. I believe that Bezos' company Amazon was guilty of paying no income tax, not Bezos himself.
As a fraction of their total wealth and income, Billionaires pay a tiny fraction(percentage-wise) of their income, and that is probably more accurate. Both Bezos and Musk have created 10's of thousands of jobs for other people to earn an income and pay tax, so all it not lost on entrepreneurs paying a small percent of their incomes to the government.

 

[Lazaran]

.
A government of the wealthy, by the wealthy, for the wealthy.

It hasn't markedly changed since the founding, when it comes to accommodation the wishes and the agendas of the rich.

"Citizens United",championed by republicans, played a large role in cementing the obscenely favorable climate for the rich in America.

The Supreme Court packing by the republicans also assured that it won't change in the foreseeable future.

 

[CornusKousa]

.
A government of the wealthy, by the wealthy, for the wealthy.

It hasn't markedly changed since the founding, when it comes to accommodation the wishes and the agendas of the rich.

"Citizens United",championed by republicans, played a large role in cementing the obscenely favorable climate for the rich in America.

The Supreme Court packing by the republicans also assured that it won't change in the foreseeable future.

Republicans packed the Supreme court??? Maybe a long ass time ago but I believe it was FDR and the (D)'s that did that last.


Freedom of speech and commerce are also for obvious reasons scorn, comrades never like freedom.

 

[Rightguide]

Can't speak to Bezos and Musk, but Buffett is on record of having paid personal income taxes every year since 1944. He reportedly paid 1.9 million in income taxes in 2016, and the same year gave $2.86 Billion to charity. IRS didn't allow him to claim 2.85 Billion of that deduction. I believe that Bezos' company Amazon was guilty of paying no income tax, not Bezos himself.
As a fraction of their total wealth and income, Billionaires pay a tiny fraction(percentage-wise) of their income, and that is probably more accurate. Both Bezos and Musk have created 10's of thousands of jobs for other people to earn an income and pay tax, so all it not lost on entrepreneurs paying a small percent of their incomes to the government.

Bezos only owns a 16% share of Amazon stock. He's pays taxes on his personal income which, "CNN Business claimed that Jeff Bezos has made the same $81,840 salary for two decades." It's obvious his share of Amazon amounts to about 100 billion Dollars, and depending on how that income is invested, he pays capital gains taxes on it.

Amazon, "will pay $162 million on $13.3 billion in profit. That is a 1.2 percent effective tax rate. You probably paid a higher rate on your income tax last year. According to CNBC, Amazon’s low tax bill mainly stemmed from the Republican tax cuts of 2017, carryforward losses from years when the company was not profitable, tax credits for massive investments in R&D and stock-based employee compensation."

As the Tax Foundation points out:

"The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent)."

Americans are already taxed to death. Government needs to spend less and waste less. You could seize all of the Billionaire wealth in the United states and it, all of it, and it wouldn't put a dent in Biden's 6 trillion Dollar budget proposal...and you'd only be able to do that once.

 

[pecksniff]

It's basic wealth envy.

What's wrong with that?

 

[pecksniff]

Good thing it doesn't work that way.

Oh, that's how it works, all right.

Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic-Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism.

 

[pecksniff]

Republicans packed the Supreme court???

The present composition is 6 R appointees and 3 D.

 

[CornusKousa]

What's wrong with that?

Envy leads to wrath.

And self destruction in most cases.

Ask some of your comrades who have read up on the Bolsheviks and the liberation of the Soviet Union from the horrible oppressions of having to work and do stuff like be productive

 

[CornusKousa]

Oh, that's how it works, all right.[/url]

No, it's not.

Buck stops with the legislators, no matter how much you want to alleviate them of their responsibilities....THEY own the legislation they pass/don't pass.

The present composition is 6 R appointees and 3 D.

Yea, that's not packing the court.

(D)'s idea of using congress to create 4 more seats so they can appoint 4 activist justices?? THAT is packing the court.

 

[pecksniff]

Yea, that's not packing the court.

It is when you do it McConnell's way.

 

[Lazaran]

It is when you do it McConnell's way.

I used the word "packing" just to trigger the Deplorables.

They can claim what McConnell did wasn't "packing" the court until they're blue in the face.

The tactics and the results were obvious.

If Democrats had done anything close to the same thing they would have stormed the Capitol.

Oh, wait..........,

 

[njlauren]

He's just taking advantage of existing tax law. Americans are way over taxed at every level. Here are some facts:

In 2017, 143.3 million taxpayers reported earning $10.9 trillion in adjusted gross income and paid $1.6 trillion in individual income taxes.

The share of reported income earned by the top 1 percent of taxpayers rose to 21 percent, from 19.7 percent in 2016. Their share of federal individual income taxes rose to 38.5 percent, from to 37.3 percent in 2016.

In 2017, the top 50 percent of all taxpayers paid 97 percent of all individual income taxes, while the bottom 50 percent paid the remaining 3 percent.

The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent).

The top 1 percent of taxpayers paid a 26.8 percent average individual income tax rate, which is more than six times higher than taxpayers in the bottom 50 percent (4.0 percent).

https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/

The problem with these numbers is they are misleading. The reason the bottom 50% of earners pay 3% of federal taxes is because they are really poor, take a look at the actual numbers on that. Likewise, it says that the top 1% pay 38% of federal taxes (note, these are all federal income taxes, they don't include state or other taxes), but what that doesn't say is what the top .5% pay in taxes, given that in terms of income and yes, the wealth that drives that income (the top .5% rely mostly on investment income), and you would see a huge imbalance.

And now, let's look at the real kicker, not the Mitt Romney '47% of people pay not taxes', it is horseshit.

1)If you look at the percent of income paid in taxes, the well off are enjoying a huge boon, and there is a big reason for that. For example, one year Mitt Romney paid like 11% of his income in taxes, a typical working person is about 20%, and for others even higher. Sure, the top 1% pay 38% of taxes, but that is because especially the top .5% have huge incomes but as a percentage of their income, pay very little.
Donald Trump swaggers around with how rich he is, and he prob has a huge income flow, yet his net federal tax bill one year was 700 dollars (not 700,000). I make a pretty comfortable salary, but in comparison, I paid about 65k in federal taxes according to my w2, and I owed money, too. It is >20% of my income on my W2.


2)It doesn't count state taxes, which the rich tend, thanks to caps on income taxes there, don't pay as much.

3)Another kicker, all the regressive taxes we have. SS is capped (and please, it is not a defined benfit program, it is straight tax revenue, a lot of the US debt is treasury notes owed to SS, which means they were tax revenue). Most people in this country pay the full rate, a CEO finishes their obligation on January 1st at about 9 in the morning.


But then we have the huge ones, things like excise taxes (read the fine print on a mobile or cable bill), and of course *ta da* sales taxes. Shithead Desantis gave a huge tax break to corporations and the well off, and he raised sales taxes..and guess what, Sales taxes are major league regressive, they hit ordinary people a lot harder than the rich.


So why do the well off do so well?

1)Capital gains at 15%. CEO gets paid mostly in stock (at least 90%), they keep getting huge stock grants. All they have to do is hold it a year, and they pay 15% tax on the gains (the initial grant itself is taxed as income). Over time they likely get a lot of money from their stock holding and see gains on it, not to mention dividends.

2)Among the top .5% especially, most of their income is investment income. Again, favorable tax rates (when that asshole Steve Forbes ran for president, and ran on a flat tax rate, he said that investment incme was tax free...really nice for a trust fund baby).

3)Little loophole called I believe the income tax carried interest. In a nutshell, it treats what otherwise would be salary as investment income and is taxed at 15%. It is what Trump uses with his whole house of cards business empire and it, for example, allows hedge fund managers who make like 10's of millions to pay only 15%.

There are others.

4)Corporations and busineses in the 1950's, the supposed golden age, paid 35% of all taxes (I believe they meant federal taxes), today it is 7%. As noted by others, we have many billions of dollar corporations literally paying net 0 federal tax, basically whateveer they paid in they get it rebated back, and in some cases they actually get more back then they paid in. Those corporations do business in the US, likely rely on the US for its business, yet through a number of loopholes they can duck paying taxes,arguing in effect "I am not a US corporation, I am a global corporation".


Anyway you slice it, the tax burden is on the more modest earners in this country. Even those in the 47% Romney liked to talk about still pay taxes, even if they pay 0 federal taxes they are paying others and paying a larger percent than the well off.

People claim that is why we have the flat tax, but we would get screwed by that too, because guaranteed it would be only on cash income and they would have a ton of loopholes for supposed investment income (don't get me going on that, most investment income these days is involved in a gigantic casino passing as investment vehicles, the percent of those investments that goes to true capital formation is a joke).

The real problem? The Well off and the corporations are having a toot with taxes thanks to the rest of us, and are saying "thanks a lot, suckers!". The corporations , that already never paid anywhere near the claimed 35% rate these days don't pay anywhere near the 21% rate, and instead of using that to create well paying jobs , uses it to increase dividends and buy back stock , while sending jobs to third world countries while refusing to lift salaries in the US for the jobs they do have here.

 

[CornusKousa]

The TLDR version.

BUHHH!!!!>.......BUHHH!!!......BUTT WEALTH ENVY!!!!!

 

[Lazaran]

.
BoBo goes from deplorable deflection and distraction, to cowardly avoidance of the facts.

Wealth envy because people are disgusted and outraged by a rigged system???

That's dumb even by BoBo standards.

 

[Rightguide]

The TLDR version.

Everything that doesn't fit the leftist narrative is "misleading," when it is clear as day.

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

The other issue I was thinking about was. why are we mad at the rich if they are not breaking any laws (and they aren't)?

IKR! We can't even get our tax laws straight. And yet chuckleheads are all like 'let's change the freakin' constitution to get rid of the electoral college!' Yah, bro. Get the tax code right first and maybe I'll think about it.

 

[pecksniff]

IKR! We can't even get our tax laws straight. And yet chuckleheads are all like 'let's change the freakin' constitution to get rid of the electoral college!' Yah, bro. Get the tax code right first and maybe I'll think about it.

What would constitute getting it "right"?

 

[CornusKousa]

.
BoBo goes from deplorable deflection and distraction, to cowardly avoidance of the facts.

Wealth envy because people are disgusted and outraged by a rigged system???

That's dumb even by BoBo standards.

Not avoiding any facts.

The rigged system that YOU and yours want to give even more power and control to.

Everything that doesn't fit the leftist narrative is "misleading," when it is clear as day.

It's being so obvious is why they have to call it "misleading".

Otherwise she would have just said "you're right!" .

What would constitute getting it "right"?

Everyone paying their fair share would be nice for a change.

15/hr?? Uncle Sam is going to need $5.50 right off the top.

 

[pecksniff]

Everyone paying their fair share would be nice for a change.

That doesn't narrow the picture much.