Definition of Underage Sexual Activity

[Bodington]

I have currently submitted to Literotica some chapters for a new novel I’ve written. The first chapter is rejected on the basis that Literotica does not accept submissions involving any sexual activity involving underage persons. In rejecting my story the moderator was kind enough to explain the expanded definition of “stories involving sexual activity involving underage persons” as far as it seems Literotica is concerned.

I quote: “This includes but is not limited to talking explicitly about sex, voyeurism, exhibitionism, fantasizing, masturbation, and graphic sexualized descriptions, in addition to actual sexual intercourse. This also includes explicit past remembrances, descriptions of an underage person’s body/physical development and/or the reaction of other people to it; references to people under the age of 18 “playing doctor” or “sex education”, and any similar situations.”

Is that not an insane definition? I get the impression that this definition must have been drafted by an attorney on behalf of Literotica to ensure that no submission accepted by Literotica would be subjected to a charge of child pornography by the police or equivalent law authorities. As typical of legal writing every conceivable instance that can be construed in any way as underage sexual activity is included. Just to cite one example of how insane that definition is, the following is one of the sentences in the text of my proposed novel the moderator has objected to as an example of underage sexual activity:

“She sensed that there had to be a sexual component as a factor in her enjoyment, but as she was not yet sexually active, she was at a loss to explain her passion for this music. All she could discern was that she found this music was compelling”

The context of the sentence is that my character at 16 years of age was enthralled by a particular piece of classical music she did not know why, thought it might have sexual connotation but because she was still a virgin was not sure. I think I’m safe to say that no rational person could conceive that my sentence in any way is a description of sexual activity involving an underage person.

Perhaps I’m being unfair to Literotica for trying to establish a true guideline as to what is acceptable and what is not in ensuring that child pornography is kept out of Literotica’s pages. After all even the Supreme Court of the United States has trouble in defining hard core pornography. This was famously acknowledged way back in 1964, where Justice Porter wrote in a Supreme Court opinion, “ I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description of ‘hard-core pornography’, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it.

 

[XerXesXu]

I have currently submitted to Literotica some chapters for a new novel I’ve written. The first chapter is rejected on the basis that Literotica does not accept submissions involving any sexual activity involving underage persons. In rejecting my story the moderator was kind enough to explain the expanded definition of “stories involving sexual activity involving underage persons” as far as it seems Literotica is concerned.

I quote: “This includes but is not limited to talking explicitly about sex, voyeurism, exhibitionism, fantasizing, masturbation, and graphic sexualized descriptions, in addition to actual sexual intercourse. This also includes explicit past remembrances, descriptions of an underage person’s body/physical development and/or the reaction of other people to it; references to people under the age of 18 “playing doctor” or “sex education”, and any similar situations.”

Just make your story into a video and post it here. We like girls who have musical sensibilities.

See:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAOB2THiGHw

 

[Rustyoznail]

Lit isn’t running by the legal definition. It’s trying to keep out of the pearl clutchers gaze.

If you drop the age reference and just have “When she was younger...” it should pass.

 

[HappySpouse]

While I accept that it is interesting that a mainstream novel released by a mainstream publisher would be able to sell a line about a young girl having a sexual reaction at Barnes and Noble to a minor but here in the land of age restricted erotica it's taboo

(whew, quite an introductory clause...compound intro clause...is that legal? probably not... maybe I'll throw in a semi-colon. that usually makes people doubt themselves)

;

it is precisely that context which causes the inappropriateness. Imagine witnessing a 12 year old's first kiss, cute and harmless. Now imagine seeing it on Pornhub. It becomes vile and likely criminal. There is nothing inherently wrong with the sexuality of minors, but it doesn't belong in adult playgrounds. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and that legalese they sent you is Literotica's line. I understand that there are other places that draw their line elsewhere, but I don't know anything about them

 

[NotWise]

Is that not an insane definition?

No. As far as Lit's concerned, it's the definition.

I don't think its' insane. I'm also not sure if it has anything to do with lawyers. It may have something to do with what Laurel wants to publish, and it may also have something to do with establishing Lit's place in the market.

Lit is the island where young people aren't abused for erotic purposes. If you don't want to be here, then go someplace else.

 

[jaF0]

Just to cite one example of how insane that definition is, the following is one of the sentences in the text of my proposed novel the moderator has objected to as an example of underage sexual activity:

“She sensed that there had to be a sexual component as a factor in her enjoyment, but as she was not yet sexually active, she was at a loss to explain her passion for this music. All she could discern was that she found this music was compelling”

The context of the sentence is that my character at 16 years of age was enthralled by a particular piece of classical music she did not know why, thought it might have sexual connotation but because she was still a virgin was not sure. I think I’m safe to say that no rational person could ....

I can't think of a single reason in the world why those two thoughts would go together.

 

[SimonDoom]

Is that not an insane definition?.

It's idiosyncratic, but it's not insane.

What Literotica does is establish a very bright-line rule excluding underage material so they don't have to spend a lot of time thinking about it. There are two people who manage this website, and as far as we know one of those two people reviews all the content for publication. The rule, as applied, excludes anything relating to underage people having sex, fantasizing about sex, witnessing sex, or anything similar.

As a result, Literotica forbids content that you can see by watching TV on popular networks during prime time. But there is a logic to it.

Regardless of the logic, it is what it is.

 

[TxRad]

To make it simple for ya, keep the age over eighteen and you won't have a problem. Period.

 

[jaF0]

^^^ I don't know why that's so hard for so many to understand. I don't really get why it's necessary to mention a specific age at all in most cases.

 

[gunhilltrain]

To make it simple for ya, keep the age over eighteen and you won't have a problem. Period.

I feel like this topic never stops coming up. Go to a site where the age of consent is much lower than it is at Lit. I like Lit, but I think I know what the rules here are by this point. Anyway, it will save you a lot of agita. Eighteen and up, post it here. Less than eighteen, go somewhere else.

 

[AngstIgnored]

Is it permissible to 'find out' at some point in a story that someone's mother got pregnant while under the age of 18 if the act is not described directly? Just a reference that "Mary had Beth when she was only 15, making her the youngest mother in the PTA by the time that Beth was a senior in high school."

 

[RejectReality]

Is it permissible to 'find out' at some point in a story that someone's mother got pregnant while under the age of 18 if the act is not described directly? Just a reference that "Mary had Beth when she was only 15, making her the youngest mother in the PTA by the time that Beth was a senior in high school."

That would probably pass, so long as you point it out in the "Notes" section when you submit. Otherwise, the 15 might very well get it knee-jerk rejected during the skim read. Knowing it's there in advance will let Laurel know to pay attention to the context around it. Pointing it out the first time around means you don't have to resubmit with the same note after a rejection.

 

[geronimo_appleby]

are we back on this old horse again?

what Tx said above is as simple as it gets.

if you have to ask: "is this all right...?" you probably already know the answer.

 

[Javahead]

are we back on this old horse again?

what Tx said above is as simple as it gets.

if you have to ask: "is this all right...?" you probably already know the answer.

It's Laurel's site. Yes, I've had to resubmit a couple of my stories with an explanation that "no, there was no underage sex" and slightly rewrite another to conform with her rules.

But she's reasonable if approached that way. If your story absolutely requires 15 year old sex kittens, rape, or bestiality, it won't be accepted - try another site. But a lot of the time a note that Adam and Angela were both at 18 even if they were still in high school or the like is all that's needed. "Nonconsent" requires only that the character comes to enjoy what's happening, even if originally against their will. Can't help you with bestiality, though - that's never going to fly. (Though a non-human but intellegent animal-like alien or fantasy creature is fine).

 

[Handley_Page]

. In rejecting my story the moderator was kind enough to explain the expanded definition of “stories involving sexual activity involving underage persons” as far as it seems Literotica is concerned.

I quote: “This includes but is not limited to talking explicitly about sex, voyeurism, exhibitionism, fantasizing, masturbation, and graphic sexualized descriptions, in addition to actual sexual intercourse. This also includes explicit past remembrances, descriptions of an underage person’s body/physical development and/or the reaction of other people to it; references to people under the age of 18 “playing doctor” or “sex education”, and any similar situations.”

Is that not an insane definition? I get the impression that this definition must have been drafted by an attorney on behalf of Literotica to ensure that no submission accepted by Literotica would be subjected to a charge of child pornography by the police or equivalent law authorities. As typical of legal writing every conceivable instance that can be construed in any way as underage sexual activity is included. Just to cite one example of how insane that definition is, the following is one of the sentences in the text of my proposed novel the moderator has objected to as an example of underage sexual activity:

“She sensed that there had to be a sexual component as a factor in her enjoyment, but as she was not yet sexually active, she was at a loss to explain her passion for this music. All she could discern was that she found this music was compelling”

The context of the sentence is that my character at 16 years of age was enthralled by a particular piece of classical music she did not know why, thought it might have sexual connotation but because she was still a virgin was not sure. I think I’m safe to say that no rational person could conceive that my sentence in any way is a description of sexual activity involving an underage person.

Every now & again, someone has a go at "re-interpretting" the rules.

The rule is dead simple. All participants to be over 18 - regardless.

 

[ElectricBlue]

The context of the sentence is that my character at 16 years of age was enthralled by a particular piece of classical music she did not know why, thought it might have sexual connotation but because she was still a virgin was not sure. I think I’m safe to say that no rational person could conceive that my sentence in any way is a description of sexual activity involving an underage person.

The point of the eighteen year rule at Lit is to avoid hassles with irrational people, not rational people.

We might all sympathise with your angst, but we've all managed to up-age our first times and there are a million eighteen year old virgins, but there it is: the site's line. Don't cross it, don't push it, and you'll be fine.

Just keep any sexual reference at least five-hundred words away from your sixteen year old. It not hard to do, and there's no point fighting it.

 

[oggbashan]

In the UK, people can have legal sex (and marry with parental consent) at age 16.

One of my cousins married on her sixteenth birthday and had her first child eleven months later - but I couldn't and wouldn't write about that on Literotica.

The rule, which you might find broken on some older stories, protects Lit against some of the irrational fundamentalists who object to any description of sex. By forbidding any sexual activity, actual or observed, until over 18, Lit ensures that other sites are more likely to be attacked.

But be careful. Even if you add a disclaimer, any description that suggests someone might be younger than 18, is likely to end in rejection e.g. she was 25 but looked like...

 

[Bramblethorn]

Is it permissible to 'find out' at some point in a story that someone's mother got pregnant while under the age of 18 if the act is not described directly? Just a reference that "Mary had Beth when she was only 15, making her the youngest mother in the PTA by the time that Beth was a senior in high school."

Yep. Have done, put a note in like RR mentioned, had no problems.

 

[TadOverdon]

Why the rule isn't insane:

The point of the eighteen year rule at Lit is to avoid hassles with irrational people, not rational people.

That's pretty succinct. As the OP said:

I get the impression that this definition must have been drafted by an attorney on behalf of Literotica to ensure that no submission accepted by Literotica would be subjected to a charge of child pornography by the police or equivalent law authorities.

 

[JohnsonLongwood]

Legal Costs

Literotica is a free site. Think about how much it would cost to defend against even overblown claims of publishing underage porn. The site owners are justifiably cautious. "Before her first experiences" might be a good substitute for "sexually active" so long as there is no explicit age reference (and it's clear she's now 18+ ).

 

[astushkin]

I quote: “This includes but is not limited to talking explicitly about sex, voyeurism, exhibitionism, fantasizing, masturbation, and graphic sexualized descriptions, in addition to actual sexual intercourse. This also includes explicit past remembrances, descriptions of an underage person’s body/physical development and/or the reaction of other people to it; references to people under the age of 18 “playing doctor” or “sex education”, and any similar situations.”

Interesting. Back in February I had a chapter of my novel rejected for this reason. But the rejection note ONLY included the FIRST sentence.

Aware of the no under 18yo rule, I had thought there wouldn't be a problem because there was no actual sexual activity. After the rejection, I thought: ok, I'll remove the teenager's naive daydreaming about her crush, and accidentally seeing her sister and fiance making out. That must be considered "fantasizing" and "voyeurism" I realized. But it was rejected again. I was really perplexed. I combed through sentence one and couldn't figure out what was wrong. I ended up guessing and deleting more stuff. It was accepted at last. What I deleted the second round included a factual (not sexualized) reporting of the onset of puberty (ie. when she was 12 her breasts started to grow...when the blood first came she was frightened, etc), as well as a brief description of evil soldiers making lewd comments to her as a teen. I even deleted her seeing the sheep mating on her family's farm --- could that be considered voyeurism? (You're so lucky that they told you which sentence was the problem!)

Seems like sentence TWO now covers those scenarios. Hope my story didn't cause the addition of the second sentence!

Incidentally, I wasn't trying to sneak some underage smut through --- in a novel length story this chapter was the flashback of an adult character to her childhood. I was trying to show formative events for a female growing up in 18th century Ireland (before political correctness), and set the stage for the rebellion against the evil occupiers that the novel is about --- the soldiers verbally harassing her being a facet of their evilness.

Have any of you had any experience with publishing at Amazon with respect to their no under 18 rule? I'm thinking about publishing this story there and was contemplating restoring some of these lines. But I don't want my book to end up in the dungeon for one inappropriate comment to a teen girl! Incidentally, I do know that they sell a book "Kitty Foyle" (a mainstream novel from 1940) has a scene where an adult man makes a comment to a little girl when he can see under her skirt and she forgot to put on underwear. Would an almost analogous scenario be a problem in a book that is categorized under erotica at Amazon? Someone above made a comment about that: many things not allowed on Lit are widely depicted in mainstream media.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

While I accept that it is interesting that a mainstream novel released by a mainstream publisher would be able to sell a line about a young girl having a sexual reaction at Barnes and Noble to a minor but here in the land of age restricted erotica it's taboo

(whew, quite an introductory clause...compound intro clause...is that legal? probably not... maybe I'll throw in a semi-colon. that usually makes people doubt themselves)

;

it is precisely that context which causes the inappropriateness. Imagine witnessing a 12 year old's first kiss, cute and harmless. Now imagine seeing it on Pornhub. It becomes vile and likely criminal. There is nothing inherently wrong with the sexuality of minors, but it doesn't belong in adult playgrounds. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and that legalese they sent you is Literotica's line. I understand that there are other places that draw their line elsewhere, but I don't know anything about them

That is an remarkably astute way of looking at it and all the explanation anybody needs.

 

[HappySpouse]

Is it permissible to 'find out' at some point in a story that someone's mother got pregnant while under the age of 18 if the act is not described directly? Just a reference that "Mary had Beth when she was only 15, making her the youngest mother in the PTA by the time that Beth was a senior in high school."

If it still worries you, you could say that she was only fifteen years older than Beth, making her the youngest mother in the PTA. That way you never even acknowledge that she was, as some point in history, fifteen.

Also, just an entirely unsolicited note. It seems weird to imply that it took until Beth's senior year for Mary to be the youngest mother. She have been the youngest mother the whole time.

 

[oggbashan]

In one of my stories, I have a couple ostracised from their village because the woman got pregnant too early and had the child before the wedding.

But it was just a factual statement and no sexual description at all. It was accepted

It wouldn't have been if my original timeline had stayed. In that? she would have had the baby at 14. I had to adjust dates. times etc to fit with genuine historical events in the story and it was a pain...

 

[Comshaw]

I do understand the frustration of the OP. I have a habit of trying to flesh out a character. To that end, some of the scenes for some of my stories included backstories to try to explain their sexual proclivities. For me, it's difficult to not explain experiences from which they acquired desires or psychological blocks to certain things.

That being said I also understand Lit's stand on ANY mention of sex for those under the age of 18. I believe they set their rules to: 1) legally protect themselves and 2) eliminate as many arguments as possible from angry authors who think their interpretation of the rules should prevail.

I'm sure they still get quite a few of the latter, but the more concrete a rule is the easier it is to point to it as the no-go line without having to make a subjective judgment.

Above and beyond that, I may not agree with the rules, but it comes down to a very simple concept: Lit's site, Lit's rules. If I don't like it or can't adapt to it, I can move along. That's the choice I have. And as far as I'm concerned, Lit's positives far outweigh the negatives.


Comshaw