BREXIT COVID and the EU

[astuffedshirt_perv]

Are anti-BREXITers rethinking their position in light of the truly dangerous behavior of unelected EU bureaucrats in slowing and then stopping vaccinations? Seems to me that BREXIT will result in a disruption of trade for a few years, but if I were over there i'd much rather live to see it.
Whats going on in the EU makes me (in the US) think Britain made the right call.

 

[Dribble]

Any country should be able to do what they want...even if it harms them. The UK hasn't been a World leader in my lifetime...so why expect them to be now?

 

[oggbashan]

The Eu's behaviour on vaccines has been truly inept.

But Brexit will damage the UK. Those who voted to leave weren't necessarily anti-Europe. just anti-EU, and other EU member states are getting the jitters too. The UK economy, already reduced by Covid restrictions, is also taking a hit from Brexit (as is the EU's trade with the UK). How long it will take for that damage to reduce? That depends on cooperation and mutual goodwill which appears to be absent on both sides.

The EU's handling of the Northern Ireland agreement has angered many, not just in Northern Ireland, but in the rest of the UK and Ireland itself. The agreement was intended to preserve the peace process. So far it seems to have damaged it.

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

The Eu's behaviour on vaccines has been truly inept.

For most of my life, the 9-11/Iraq war has been the most important crisis. Now, clearly, it is COVID. Knowing what we knew at the time, the Iraq war could have happened or not depending on you opinion. There is no 'other side' of the EU's decisions here. They are uniformly bad and wrong, while UK sits at #3--almost best world--in vaccination rate. The behavior of the EU should lead to a change in government, but they are the EU. You can't get rid of them.

But Brexit will damage the UK.

Surely at some point 'normalcy' will return to UK-EU trade. But 'normalcy' from COVID will return to UK much sooner than in the EU. On the balance, I would pick the latter.

 

[colddiesel]

The only issue on the agenda of the Brussels Bureaucracy is the preservation of the EU and their jobs. They are terrified that other fed up countries will also leave.

No-one ever voted for the EU they voted for the Common Market a different thing altogether.

The Astra Zenica issue is a Brussels created crisis which they thought would hurt UK but is backfiring badly.

 

[Kay_Evans100]

The only issue on the agenda of the Brussels Bureaucracy is the preservation of the EU and their jobs. They are terrified that other fed up countries will also leave.

No-one ever voted for the EU they voted for the Common Market a different thing altogether.

The Astra Zenica issue is a Brussels created crisis which they thought would hurt UK but is backfiring badly.

Agreed

 

[DeYaKen]

The Eu's behaviour on vaccines has been truly inept.

But Brexit will damage the UK. Those who voted to leave weren't necessarily anti-Europe. just anti-EU, and other EU member states are getting the jitters too. The UK economy, already reduced by Covid restrictions, is also taking a hit from Brexit (as is the EU's trade with the UK). How long it will take for that damage to reduce? That depends on cooperation and mutual goodwill which appears to be absent on both sides.

The EU's handling of the Northern Ireland agreement has angered many, not just in Northern Ireland, but in the rest of the UK and Ireland itself. The agreement was intended to preserve the peace process. So far it seems to have damaged it.

First, it is not the EU that are being inept when it comes to vaccination it is the individual member states. Not all EU states have been raising doubts about the Astra-Zenica Vaccine. The EU regulator has been emphatic that it is safe. Those countries including Non-EU states like Norway are shooting themselves in the foot. For the second time, they have cast doubt on the efficacy and safety of the vaccine that offered the best chance of rapid rollout. Their people will, by now, have lost faith in it so the high take-up necessary to defeat the disease will be more difficult to achieve.

Second, the agreement with the EU, on the subject of the Irish Border, Is the deal Boris Johnson fought so hard to get. If you remember, when Theresa May offered a similar deal he orchestrated its defeat then negotiated something he said was much better. The EU is now insisting that he implements the deal that HE negotiated. Yes, there is distrust on both sides but only one side has threatened to break international law and now has actually done it. I would say that it is quite understandable that the other party doesn't trust the lawbreaker.

Those of us with a memory that lasts longer than four years can't understand what is going on. Weren't we promised that Ireland would not be a problem and that technology was going to provide us with a seamless border. We also can't understand why nurses can't have a decent pay rise now we are saving £350 million a week in Payments to the EU.

 

[DeYaKen]

For most of my life, the 9-11/Iraq war has been the most important crisis. Now, clearly, it is COVID. Knowing what we knew at the time, the Iraq war could have happened or not depending on you opinion. There is no 'other side' of the EU's decisions here. They are uniformly bad and wrong, while UK sits at #3--almost best world--in vaccination rate. The behavior of the EU should lead to a change in government, but they are the EU. You can't get rid of them.

As I've said to Ogg, it is not the EU that is the problem at the moment, it is individual member states. The EU regulator has not backed their action and has in fact told them that any fears about the Astra-Zenica vaccine are groundless. The governments in those states are under great pressure due to their slow rollout of the vaccination program and, like most governments, they are shifting the blame. The truth is that they were late getting their orders in and AZ has not been able to ramp up production as fast as they'd hoped and they are fulfilling orders on a first-come-first-served basis. Rather than tell their people that they cocked it up, the governments are suggesting that there is something wrong with the vaccine. Of course, once they have sufficient supplies the problem will cease to exist but faith in the vaccine will have been seriously eroded. In my opinion their actions can only be described as irresponsible.

 

[DeYaKen]

The only issue on the agenda of the Brussels Bureaucracy is the preservation of the EU and their jobs. They are terrified that other fed up countries will also leave.

No-one ever voted for the EU they voted for the Common Market a different thing altogether.

The Astra Zenica issue is a Brussels created crisis which they thought would hurt UK but is backfiring badly.

No, it is not Their beef is with Astra Zenica, an Anglo-Swedish company that produces the vaccine in a number of countries including the Netherlands Britain and India.

The current scare stories about Astra Zenica come from the Individual States who are looking to divert the flack from their slow rollout. More than half of the EU countries are still using the AZ vaccine and the EU regulator has stated that fears about safety are groundless.

I know like many Brexiteers you would like to believe that we didn't know what we were getting into when Britain joined the EU in 1973 or when we voted to stay in 1975. Nothing could be further from the truth. The EEC as it was then already had a European Parliament when we joined and we had members of that parliament when we held a referendum in 1975. The foundations of the EU were already there and Britain was instrumental in pushing it along by insisting that the European Parliament actually had some power.

The actions of the member states throwing up scare stories will backfire and the EU regulator has urged them to continue using the vaccine.

 

[JackLuis]

From California, it just looks like Europeans being European! Nuts the lot of you.

You vote for a Union but don't want a Federal Unin, more like a Confederacy. That hasn't worked out too well here.

I'm buying more popcorn.

 

[oggbashan]

What the UK voted for when we joined is nothing like the EU is now. We joined a trading bloc with a parliament. We wanted that parliament to have real political control over the EU organizations. They has NEVER happened and what the EU has become was not supported by any democratic process whatever.

The UK (and EU) will suffer because of Brexit over the next few years. The EU will miss the UK's massive contributon to its finances.

 

[DeYaKen]

What the UK voted for when we joined is nothing like the EU is now. We joined a trading bloc with a parliament. We wanted that parliament to have real political control over the EU organizations. They has NEVER happened and what the EU has become was not supported by any democratic process whatever.

The UK (and EU) will suffer because of Brexit over the next few years. The EU will miss the UK's massive contributon to its finances.

The UK NEVER voted to join the EU The Heath government took us in without giving the people a say. It was a time when Britain was in deep shit. we weren't exporting anywhere near enough and were still paying large amounts to the USA for their assistance in WW2. It was not until 1975 that the Wilson government offered the people a referendum and they voted 2 to 1 in favour of staying in. If people didn't know they were voting for a politically closer Europe they were blind. Why would a trading bloc need a parliament? The EU parliament did manage to get a veto on all laws passed. They did not get to amend them which would have been better. Directives are another thing altogether. They come from the commission which consists of representatives appointed by the governments of the member states. Directives are not law they are instructions to member states to implement a policy using laws or systems of their own creation. E.G. directive said that by 2011 all member states should provide plans for opening the postal service to competition. Only Britain decided this was a good opportunity to privatise the postal service.

In some respects, the EU is more democratic than Britain where bishops have a say in amending laws as do hereditary peers. At least in the European Parliament, the number of MEPs from any particular party reflects the number of people who voted for them. Unlike Britain where, in 1951, Labour polled 48.8% of the vote but the Conservatives with only 40% got a 17 seat majority.


The UK contribution was significantly smaller than Germany's It will mean that projects in the poorer EU countries will have to be cut. The economies of those poorer countries will now grow at a slower rate making them less able to buy products from the wealthier countries, one of which was Britain.
Yes the countries of the EU will suffer a little but as a bloc they only exported 5% of their output to Britain. Britain, on the other hand, sold 44% of its exports to EU countries. That has dropped by 19% since we left with many smaller companies deciding to cease exports to the EU altogether.

 

[oggbashan]

Elections to the EU parliament might have been more democratic since it was by proportional representation, but what's the point when the EU ignores the parliament?

 

[DeYaKen]

Elections to the EU parliament might have been more democratic since it was by proportional representation, but what's the point when the EU ignores the parliament?

That is quite simply not the case. If the European Parliament vetoes a bill it goes into "Tripartite" where representatives of the parliament, the commission and the council of ministers get together to thrash out a compromise. This is then sent back to the parliament and so on until it is passed. Neither the commission nor the council of ministers can overrule the parliament.

In the European parliament, it is impossible to abstain. If you do not cast a vote it is taken as a vote for the motion. This makes a lot of sense since if you don't care enough to vote against then you must be okay with it. This means that UKIP voted for every motion that they later criticised.

 

[oggbashan]

But the EU parliament can not amend or initiate. That makes them B**** useless.

And that's without the enormous cost of moving it because the EU couldn't agree on a permanent base...

 

[DeYaKen]

But the EU parliament can not amend or initiate. That makes them B**** useless.

And that's without the enormous cost of moving it because the EU couldn't agree on a permanent base...

Nothing is perfect. The EU is still in its infancy which is why it relies so heavily on the governments of the individual states. So far the biggest mistake they have made is the common currency. It seems like such a good idea but with no way of raising revenue from the states using it, it is a millstone around the neck. Sadly, because it was born out of a trading agreement it is going to be hard going to force through the reforms necessary. Without Britain that will be harder but give it time. The union of states in America has had a hell of a lot longer and they aren't there yet.

 

[oggbashan]

I am not sure the EU will EVER get there. Italy and Germany are confederations with internal conflicts more than a century after integration and the EU doesn't seem to recognize their status. Spain has problems with Basques and Catalans; Belgium is almost ungovernable because of the divide internally...

 

[DeYaKen]

I am not sure the EU will EVER get there. Italy and Germany are confederations with internal conflicts more than a century after integration and the EU doesn't seem to recognize their status. Spain has problems with Basques and Catalans; Belgium is almost ungovernable because of the divide internally...

You missed out the Floems and Walloons in Belgium. But such divisions happen all over the world. Britain has four different countries plus the Cornish who think they should be a separate country. We have the Orcadians and Shetlanders who feel closer to Norway than Britain. They all think they are ignored by Westminster but the solution is not to divide.

 

[oggbashan]

You missed out the Floems and Walloons in Belgium. But such divisions happen all over the world. Britain has four different countries plus the Cornish who think they should be a separate country. We have the Orcadians and Shetlanders who feel closer to Norway than Britain. They all think they are ignored by Westminster but the solution is not to divide.

My last sentence is about Belgium. The EU says it supports subsidiarity - the idea that different groups can interpret EU rules differently but in practice they don't. In the UK we have Welsh, Scots, and Northern Ireland Parliaments with differing powers to act independently. The EU doesn't even seem to allow that for complete countries, and certainly not for subdivisions within those countries. They seem obsessed with one size fits all.

 

[colddiesel]

I know like many Brexiteers you would like to believe that we didn't know what we were getting into when Britain joined the EU in 1973 or when we voted to stay in 1975.

.

I did not vote for Brexit because at the time I thought we could get change far more effectively from the inside. But once the decision was made there was and is no going back. Unfortunately it took the politicians three years and more to work out that once the die is cast there is no point pining for the past.

The UK has to deal with the here and now, not blather on about what might have been. Brussels is now the enemy and it is necessary to drive a wedge between them and the European governments at every opportunity. Nicely of course.

 

[oggbashan]

...

Brussels is now the enemy and it is necessary to drive a wedge between them and the European governments at every opportunity. Nicely of course.

The EU is doing that very well without any help from the UK.

 

[DeYaKen]

I did not vote for Brexit because at the time I thought we could get change far more effectively from the inside. But once the decision was made there was and is no going back. Unfortunately it took the politicians three years and more to work out that once the die is cast there is no point pining for the past.

The UK has to deal with the here and now, not blather on about what might have been. Brussels is now the enemy and it is necessary to drive a wedge between them and the European governments at every opportunity. Nicely of course.

The war is over and has been for 75 years, why do you want to fight it again? Brussels is not the enemy. In "the here and now," the EU is still our biggest trading partner and rather than trying to break up something that has kept peace in Europe for 75 years we should be doing our best to develop as close a relationship as possible. The EU have made it quite clear that their vaccine dispute has nothing to do with Britain, it is between them and the Anglo Swedish company Astra Zenica. Why do you want to turn it into some kind of nationalist issue?

 

[DeYaKen]

The EU is doing that very well without any help from the UK.

Wishful thinking again Ogg, or could it be sellers remorse?

 

[oggbashan]

Wishful thinking again Ogg, or could it be sellers remorse?

No. I read the European press. Do you?

Edited for PS:

1. The Greeks are incensed by the pain of being in the Euro, which they only joined because their then government lied massively.

2. Hungary and Poland are facing EU 'punishments' because of their domestic policies.

3. The northern European countries are getting pissed off with supporting the Southern States.

4. The Schengen agreement is in tatters as countries introduce barriers because of Covid.

5. Angela Merkel's party is being trounced in local elections by anti-EU groups.

6. President Macron is facing a rise in anti-EU parties that could prevent him, or his party, from reelection.

7. Many EU states have seen a rise in anti-EU sentiment. For most, it is still a large minority, but the vaccination shambles is not helping.

8. Ireland (not just Northern Ireland) is worried about EU actions jeopardizing the peace process.

And none of that, except 8, has to do with the UK and Brexit.

 

[DeYaKen]

No. I read the European press. Do you?

Edited for PS:

1. The Greeks are incensed by the pain of being in the Euro, which they only joined because their then government lied massively.

2. Hungary and Poland are facing EU 'punishments' because of their domestic policies.

3. The northern European countries are getting pissed off with supporting the Southern States.

4. The Schengen agreement is in tatters as countries introduce barriers because of Covid.

5. Angela Merkel's party is being trounced in local elections by anti-EU groups.

6. President Macron is facing a rise in anti-EU parties that could prevent him, or his party, from reelection.

7. Many EU states have seen a rise in anti-EU sentiment. For most, it is still a large minority, but the vaccination shambles is not helping.

8. Ireland (not just Northern Ireland) is worried about EU actions jeopardizing the peace process.

And none of that, except 8, has to do with the UK and Brexit.

1 in 2008 when their economy collapsed the Greeks could have left the Euro but they accepted all of the EU conditions in order to stay in. My personal opinion is that they should have pulled out but the fact of the matter is that they wanted to stay in and ejected the government that was standing up to the EU. Sort of gives the lie to the theory that they are incensed. They may be unhappy with the situation but they weren't unhappy enough to walk away from the Euro.

2 Yep they are and Austria is likely to join them. They are liable to have to accept large fines which they will pay. Hungary and Poland are net receiver from the EU and will not walk away from that.

3 Northern European press is getting upset because like the British press they represent very rich business people who are very unhappy about the EU attempts to crack down on tax evasion and avoidance.

4 Schengen is temporarily on hold. there are conditions written into the agreement which allows for the temporary suspension of free movement. At present everyone agrees that it makes sense to do so.

5 can't comment on local elections in Germany but as every British politician tells us after every local election, local elections can't be projected into central government because the nature of the beast is very different.

6 France has always had a strong nationalist representation dating back to Jean Marie Le Penn. Macron is unpopular and has been since the people realised that his policies meant that most of them would end up poorer. All the opposition parties are gaining from that, not just the nationalists.

7 I agree that the vaccination program has been a disaster but no country was bound by any rules to wait for the EU. You will, of course, have noticed that 17 of the 27 nations did not suspend the use of the AZ vaccine. That's because as sovereign nations they can do that, just as they could have placed orders early in the same way that Britain did.

8 Ireland is worried about Britain jeopardising the peace process. It is Britain after all that has broken international law. The DUP are blaming the EU because the agreement signed by Boris Johnson increases the chances of a united Ireland. Anyone with half an eye could see that it would do so but apparently in his hurry to "Get Brexit Done" he didn't.