Plagiarism on Amazon

[KeithD]

There's no fundamental difference between piracy lawsuits that involve e-publishing and piracy lawsuits that involve music or movies.

Yes, there is. Wiley definitely takes out formal copyrights on what they publish--before it's released. They have legal standing. The difference isn't in the mode--books/movies/music. The difference is in holding formal copyrights. You don't file for formal copyrights (in the States) on your erotica, do you? If you say you do, I won't believe you. I don't believe that anyone writing erotica and, first thing, submitting it to a free-use, open Internet story site has obtained formal copyright on those works. In the United States, if you don't hold formal copyright, you are not getting a court date. You're not going to win a lawsuit against anyone, because you aren't going to get into court. Bottom line reality.

Let's get real here.

Sometimes bluff works in getting stuff taken down (until later that day when it pops up again), and it's wonderful if it does--but that's what it is--bluff. Don't fool yourself about lawsuits and legal recourse and such. That dog don't bark with what we're doing here.

 

[Salacious_Scribe]

I'm surprised one was ablr to be sued. Usually those sites are located in countries with lax enforcement of copyright laws. That's why they succeed. Take one down two pop up.

Then there's the Dark Web...

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Yes, there is. Wiley definitely takes out formal copyrights on what they publish--before it's released. They have legal standing. The difference isn't in the mode--books/movies/music. The difference is in holding formal copyrights. You don't file for formal copyrights (in the States) on your erotica, do you? If you say you do, I won't believe you. I don't believe that anyone writing erotica and, first thing, submitting it to a free-use, open Internet story site has obtained formal copyright on those works. In the United States, if you don't hold formal copyright, you are not getting a court date. You're not going to win a lawsuit against anyone, because you aren't going to get into court. Bottom line reality.

Let's get real here.

Sometimes bluff works in getting stuff taken down (until later that day when it pops up again), and it's wonderful if it does--but that's what it is--bluff. Don't fool yourself about lawsuits and legal recourse and such. That dog don't bark with what we're doing here.

First of all, I wasn't offering someone legal advice. You called someone a liar and challenged them to name a court case. I named a prominent one. There are plenty of others and there are plenty of defendants who have been sued and settled before trial.

Second, copyright registration costs only $65 if you fill the application out yourself instead of paying someone to do it for you. It's imminently achievable, whether or not you choose to believe someone would do it.

Third, that's not exactly how copyright law works. You do have to register the copyright to legally enforce the copyright, but copyright protection arises as soon as the work is created. You don't have to register it in advance. If you find someone stealing your work, you can register it at that time and proceed to court as soon as you have the work copyrighted. The copyright infringement will be retroactive back to the first date of infringement. However, if the work isn't copyrighted within three months of creation, the litigant will only be able to sue for financial losses, and not for attorney fees and court costs.

Fourth, copyright infringement isn't the only way to take someone to court over an Amazon-style rip-off. A lawsuit for tortious interference with a business prospect is another option, and one better suited to putting Amazon itself in the crosshairs.

Fifth, this still isn't legal advice or a suggestion about what anyone should do in any given situation. Whether or not any of these things are something somebody would actually do to protect a story published on Lit is another matter entirely. It's not helpful, though, to leave people with a false impression of what their options are.

If you don't want to protect your work, that's absolutely your prerogative, and I seriously doubt anyone is going to be troubled by your decision. There's no reason to discourage other people from protecting theirs, though.

 

[Ada Stuart]

Hmmm, @160 stories all published within a couple of days of each other. No Amazon, that is not suspicious at all.

Ugh. Now it's 201 published stories. Someone has been busy - or is making a lot more money than she's entitled to

Has any of you been successful in getting Amazon to remove your books? She has to earn some income from this theft.

I just realised that I downloaded one of those she had for free - before I recognised the name...

 

[KeithD]

First of all, I wasn't offering someone legal advice.

You offered advice. It was misleading and wrong advice for the situation of Literotica authors. I wish that people who have absolutely no knowledge of a publishing issue wouldn't act as if they did. People reading in on the discussion board don't know you don't know what you're talking about and they'll be misled into hurting themselves.

You've published more to the discussion board than you have to the story file. You have one incomplete story and a few poems. Whoopie do in terms of understanding the business. You haven't demonstrated the experience required to help other writers not to shoot themselves in the foot by following your advice.

Compared to you I certainly do know how copyright works. I've done it in publishing. All you're doing is talking about it. In addition, this question involves actual publishing to the marketplace. I can point to nearly 200 published works. What can you point to that justifies you giving advice on publishing?

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

You offered advice. It was misleading and wrong advice for the situation of Literotica authors. I wish that people who have absolutely no knowledge of a publishing issue wouldn't act as if they did. People reading in on the discussion board don't know you don't know what you're talking about and they'll be misled into hurting themselves.

You've published more to the discussion board than you have to the story file. You have one incomplete story and a few poems. Whoopie do in terms of understanding the business. You haven't demonstrated the experience required to help other writers not to shoot themselves in the foot by following your advice.

Compared to you I certainly do know how copyright works. I've done it in publishing. All you're doing is talking about it. In addition, this question involves actual publishing to the marketplace. I can point to nearly 200 published works. What can you point to that justifies you giving advice on publishing?

No, Keith. Up to that point, I merely contradicted your assertion that someone was a liar. After that, I corrected your false information. People are smart enough to make their own decisions about the best course of action they want to pursue, and they don't need someone giving them false information to try to make the decision for them.

I'm well aware of your claims to have an extensive background in the publishing world. At one point, you even claimed to have helped write U.S. copyright laws. I give those claims as much credence as your claims to be a Blackbird test pilot, a Broadway actor, a CIA agent, a big player in news media, a nightclub owner, a singer in a famous choir, and whatever else I'm forgetting at the moment. Frankly, if you want to use Lit to act out J. Walter Mitty-style fantasies, that's fine. Lit's about fantasy, after all, but when you start providing false information, don't expect it to go uncorrected. I've told you before that I ignore you entirely until you start demeaning someone. This is another example of that.

I'm also very familiar with your theory that churning out stories in vast quantities is an achievement in and of itself. I don't share that opinion, and I don't need to demonstrate anything to your satisfaction. The information I've provided is accurate and was provided only to correct the false impression you left when you began backpedaling. If I had never published a single piece of work, under this name or any other, the information would still be correct and verifiable.

I didn't give anyone advice on publishing, but I'd say my qualifications are exactly the same as yours: turning over a script and letting an indie publisher distribute it. It isn't difficult and it doesn't require navigation of U.S. copyright laws. Doing it another 199 more times will not make it any more or less impressive, nor will it make me any more or less qualified to accurately comment on U.S. copyright laws.

 

[KeithD]

Naw, didn't bother to read that. You're just another easy button guru, leading folks down the garden blind alley. Happy to see that you're intent on keeping your wordage on the discussion board well ahead of your wordage to the story file in the five months you've been here and an expert in your own mind.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Naw, didn't bother to read that. You're just another easy button guru, leading folks down the garden blind alley. Happy to see that you're intent on keeping your wordage on the discussion board well ahead of your wordage to the story file in the five months you've been here and an expert in your own mind.

For someone who didn't read the post, you sure keep editing your response to it a lot.

The "wordage" in the published portion of my "story file" (obsolete term) is over 120k. My chapters are a little different than yours. You ought to have noticed the length when you were leaving snotty comments because you got pissed off.

Mass quanities of stories seem to be important to you, and that's fine. But I don't measure myself by the word or by the number of stories. I measure myself by the quality. I'm not a story factory. I have no goals to produce mass quantities of stories. Why would I?

None of that is relevant to the accuracy of the information I provided. I could be the worst author in the world, and that information would still be accurate. You called someone a liar, belittled them, and then when you were given the example of copyright enforcement you challenged someone to provide, you tried to cover your error with misinformation. I provided the accurate information to correct it, and you can't let it go.

More than two hours after your original response that you didn't read my post, you're still editing your reply to it and load in a few more attempts at insults. If you're going to argue about something, argue about the substance. Nobody cares what you think about me or the quantity of my writing.

 

[lovecraft68]

Naw, didn't bother to read that. You're just another easy button guru, leading folks down the garden blind alley. Happy to see that you're intent on keeping your wordage on the discussion board well ahead of your wordage to the story file in the five months you've been here and an expert in your own mind.

I recall you taking a swipe at me insinuating I talk about my stats....yet all we see here is you trying to compare how many stories you have to a subject that has nothing to do with how many stories anyone has.

Then you denigrate people because it somehow makes you better because you've put more stories up on a FREE site than they have? What good is wordage if hardly anyone reads it?

What someone knows about the legal system has fuck all to do with writing stories here. Your 'story file' is something you whip out when you have nothing else, and try to intimidate people with it.

better not fuck with that guy, see how many stories he has?

You find ways to talk about how many stories you have constantly, then try to say you don't care about anything here. Your talk of your story file reminds me of guys who drive large pick up trucks to overcompensate.

You're telling someone they're misleading people by saying there is recourse, but you saying deal with it, nothing you can do...is not misleading?

Then you throw in what does she -or anyone else-know about publishing. How many times have you said in context of publishing "I don't know, I have people who do that for me?" but when you need to sound like an expert you know everything.

I can tell you right now that a couple of things you do here tell me you don't know anywhere near what you think you do. Something you do on a regular basis and talk about all the time is a big mistake that could blow up in your face, anyone who self publishes/publishes should know this.

If it were anyone else, I'd mention it to save them a potential problem, but you can go fish seeing you know everything and even if it turned out I was right you'd never admit it so I won't bother.

Closing on the topic...

You say there's nothing that can be done.
EON says there is.

The truth is....there are things you can do. The issue is can someone afford an attorney and then spend years waiting their date in copyright court? For an e-book that most of the time doesn't make a fraction of the money you'd spend pulling it down.

So the real question is there are things that can be done, but is it worth it?

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

The truth is....there are things you can do. The issue is can someone afford an attorney and then spend years waiting their date in copyright court? For an e-book that most of the time doesn't make a fraction of the money you'd spend pulling it down.

So the real question is there are things that can be done, but is it worth it?

That's an important point and something that people should consider when deciding whether or not it's worth the $65 and 15 minutes of time to register their copyright. If you register within the first three months of publication, if you sue, you're entitled to ask for attorney fees and costs to be awarded. That means that the defendant has to pay for your lawyer if you win your case.

Paying for your lawyer upfront and then going through months to reach a settlement or a couple of years of litigation (almost always at least one year, sometimes significantly more, depending on the venue) before you can collect the fees would still be out of reach for most people. But, there are lawyers who take copyright cases on a contingency fee basis, meaning that they only get paid if and when you win your case.

Attorneys won't take just any case on that basis, but they are far more likely to take a copyright case on a contingency basis if the copyright was registered within the three months. For the attorney, that means it doesn't really matter if your book isn't a best seller. They're still going to get their fees awarded by the court as long as they can win the case. Most of the time, it's going to be an easy win if your copyright was registered before the defendant stole your work.

If the attorney is sure they're going to be able to have fees awarded to them, the other financial concern would collectibility of the award (does the defendant have any money, and are they in a country that will honor the process to collect it?) As authors, we can't control that. We can control whether or not we copyright the work within three months or if we wait until we need to enforce it - if we want to try to enforce it at all.

it's just a consideration. It's not always going to make sense to pay $65 to register a short story. The calculus probably changes if you're talking about a full-length novel. It's just something that's good to know, just like it's good to know that if you haven't registered your copyright, you're not without recourse. There are options, and knowing the options exist is important.

 

[Salacious_Scribe]

It's not always going to make sense to pay $65 to register a short story. The calculus probably changes if you're talking about a full-length novel.

This is true, but you can register hundreds of stories under one copyright. I plan on fileing when I have 100 completed stories. Then it's only $6.50 each. Not a bad price for the protection.

 

[KeithD]

I recall you taking a swipe at me insinuating I talk about my stats....yet all we see here is you trying to compare how many stories you have to a subject that has nothing to do with how many stories anyone has.

Take your stalking and stick it where the sun don't shine. Not playing that game with you.

 

[KeithD]

For someone who didn't read the post, you sure keep editing your response to it a lot.

Yeah, I edit my posts, adding to them, for a while. Tough. Sue me. Didn't read the rest of your longwinded rant here either. I'll leave it up to the writers here on whether they go down your "just got here but I'm an expert" rat holes with you.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

This is true, but you can register hundreds of stories under one copyright. I plan on fileing when I have 100 completed stories. Then it's only $6.50 each. Not a bad price for the protection.

Not a bad price at all. I think that's s65 cents each, actually - even better. Their current online form only allows ten entries. I'm not suggesting that you can't do exactly what you're saying, but it might take something besides the standard form. Hopefully, it's still something you can do online.

 

[lovecraft68]

This is true, but you can register hundreds of stories under one copyright. I plan on fileing when I have 100 completed stories. Then it's only $6.50 each. Not a bad price for the protection.

Is that a recent change? 8 years ago I filed for one for two series I had started and it was $35 for each series. It looked like any individual title would be an additional $35.

 

[Salacious_Scribe]

Is that a recent change? 8 years ago I filed for one for two series I had started and it was $35 for each series. It looked like any individual title would be an additional $35.

Again, this is what I was told by someone in publishing. It may have changed, it may be for traditionally published anthologies. Until I'm ready to actually copyright something, I won't research what I can and can't do.

 

[Jay626]

She ripped off 2 of my stories that I know of. She is probably a he and an idiot or a lazy asshole thief.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

She ripped off 2 of my stories that I know of. She is probably a he and an idiot or a lazy asshole thief.

That sucks. He or she is an idiot, because they listed it with Kindle Unlimited, so people are downloading it for free right now.

Have you reported it to Amazon?

 

[SimonDoom]

Again, this is what I was told by someone in publishing. It may have changed, it may be for traditionally published anthologies. Until I'm ready to actually copyright something, I won't research what I can and can't do.

Here's a link to the Copyright Office's official circular on the subject of group and collective registrations of works: https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ34.pdf.

As I read this, if you write a series of unpublished stories and then choose to publish them together in an anthology or collection, you can register them together under one application. But you cannot do that if you have previously published the works one at a time. Publishing them at Literotica would count as publication, I would think. You might get away with doing it depending on how you fill out the application, but it might be subject to challenge. But you might interpret the Copyright Office's advice differently from the way I do.

A disadvantage to registering many separate stories as one collective registration is that it counts only once for purposes of statutory damages, as the circular says. That means if three of your stories are infringed, you can't get statutory damages for three works infringed, only one.

 

[KeithD]

Here's a link to the Copyright Office's official circular on the subject of group and collective registrations of works: https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ34.pdf.

As I read this, if you write a series of unpublished stories and then choose to publish them together in an anthology or collection, you can register them together under one application. But you cannot do that if you have previously published the works one at a time. Publishing them at Literotica would count as publication, I would think. You might get away with doing it depending on how you fill out the application, but it might be subject to challenge. But you might interpret the Copyright Office's advice differently from the way I do.

A disadvantage to registering many separate stories as one collective registration is that it counts only once for purposes of statutory damages, as the circular says. That means if three of your stories are infringed, you can't get statutory damages for three works infringed, only one.

My first six published novels were all copyrighted together under a single registration. They were all written before the first one was published. The publisher applied for and paid for the copyright in my name. They were all part of a continuous series.

 

[SimonDoom]

My first six published novels were all copyrighted together under a single registration. They were all written before the first one was published. The publisher applied for and paid for the copyright in my name. They were all part of a continuous series.

That's interesting to know. If they're all part of a series, it would support the claim that they're properly considered parts of a whole to be registered together.

In that situation I'd still consider whether it might not be better to copyright separately because of the possibility of getting more statutory damages. If you obtained the copyright before or close to the time of publication you'd potentially (I emphasize "potentially") be entitled to a lot of damages for willful infringement ($150,000 max per work). So if all six of the novels were infringed, you'd be looking at max damages of $800,000 versus $150,000 for a collective work.

 

[KeithD]

That's interesting to know. If they're all part of a series, it would support the claim that they're properly considered parts of a whole to be registered together.

In that situation I'd still consider whether it might not be better to copyright separately because of the possibility of getting more statutory damages. If you obtained the copyright before or close to the time of publication you'd potentially (I emphasize "potentially") be entitled to a lot of damages for willful infringement ($150,000 max per work). So if all six of the novels were infringed, you'd be looking at max damages of $800,000 versus $150,000 for a collective work.

Applying this to the erotica we write and post here, this quickly gets to "why bother"? The legal damages on a story posted for free to an open-access story site is zero. The legal damages of a group of 1,000 stories posted for free to an open-access story site is still zero.

People encourage themselves to zip from what James could make off of infringement of marketplace sold and copyrighted 40 Shades to what they could make off of infringement of the story "Debbie Does Tulsa" posted for free access and not formally copyrighted to Literotica and they equate them. They don't equate. The value an author gave to anything posted at Literotica is zero, legally. There are no monetary damages, so the only money going anywhere on a suit you'd take on a Literotica story (which could only get to court if you paid the money to formally copyright it) is the money you fork over for your legal fees. Presumably you could get the offending Web site to take it down. They could do so at noon and have it back up at 1:00 p.m.

 

[SimonDoom]

Applying this to the erotica we write and post here, this quickly gets to "why bother"? The legal damages on a story posted for free to an open-access story site is zero. The legal damages of a group of 1,000 stories posted for free to an open-access story site is still zero.

People encourage themselves to zip from what James could make off of infringement of marketplace sold and copyrighted 40 Shades to what they could make off of infringement of the story "Debbie Does Tulsa" posted for free access and not formally copyrighted to Literotica and they equate them. They don't equate. The value an author gave to anything posted at Literotica is zero, legally. There are no monetary damages, so the only money going anywhere on a suit you'd take on a Literotica story (which could only get to court if you paid the money to formally copyright it) is the money you fork over for your legal fees. Presumably you could get the offending Web site to take it down. They could do so at noon and have it back up at 1:00 p.m.

I didn't mean to suggest applying it here -- only in your case. But of course if one adopts a "why bother?" attitude (which, by the way, is my own personal attitude toward copyright registration of my stories -- I see it as pointless) then it makes no sense to register at all, collectively or otherwise.

IF you went to the trouble to timely register the copyright in your Literotica story around the time of publication, then theoretically you could pursue an infringer and seek statutory damages, which would not require evidence of actual damage, as well as attorney's fees. For that to be worthwhile, one would have to have a strong stomach for and receptiveness to uncertainty, litigation, disclosure of one's identity, and a high probability of spending more in fees and headaches than in earning from a successful resolution of the matter.

 

[KeithD]

I didn't mean to suggest applying it here -- only in your case. But of course if one adopts a "why bother?" attitude (which, by the way, is my own personal attitude toward copyright registration of my stories -- I see it as pointless) then it makes no sense to register at all, collectively or otherwise.

Absolutely correct. My mainstream works are copyrighted--by the publisher in my name at the publisher's expense. That's the standard for the publishing world. For erotica, I get it published first, before anyone could swipe it, to the marketplace for whatever money is likely to be made off it. By the time I publish it to Literotica, it's had its monetary run. Instead of worrying about protecting it after it's posted here, which isn't going to happen no matter how much anyone wants to shut their eyes tight and wish it were so, I'm spending my time writing new work to go to the marketplace for whatever money is likely to be made off it. If it's so valuable to me that I can't stand to see it swiped and reposted by someone else, I just don't submit it to Literotica. Doing so is the author's responsibility and liability.

The six works I mentioned as copyrighted as a unit were going to the marketplace and the publisher paid for and handled the formal copyright application.

Theoretically, though, I could copyright a whole glop of erotica stories under one application, even ones already posted to Literotica, because the Copyright Office doesn't check on that. They don't verify other than look at the dates of dueling copyright claims and authorize the earliest application date. For instance, I do a series of GM short story anthologies under the title Grab Bag. I'm up to 18 of them in the marketplace, two more at the publishers, and I'm finishing compiling number 21 now. Each includes between 15 and 20 stories. I could lump all of these together and copyright them as Grab Bag Anthologies, thus covering some 400 works, and the Copyright Office would provide a formal copyright without question, for the one basic fee. I know it can happen; I've filed for similar series while working in mainstream publishing houses, and the formal copyrights were obtained.

Where the wrinkle comes is that, if this made it to court because someone swiped some of the stories and published them through Amazon themselves (which they've done with some of mine), all the opposition has to do is to point to any of them existing in the Literotica file, and the value of the works go to zero. No monetary damages.

Having the formal copyright to show would work with Amazon without going to court and might work to get the offending Web sites to take what they've stolen down (to go back up next Tuesday), but it's all by bluff, not by what legal recourse can get you in reality. As I've already noted, bluff is great if it works. It's still bluff. And it's one whack in a popup world.

The eventual result of a lot of yammering to Amazon on this sort of thing when they have no idea who really owns any or it and no interest in putting in the effort to be King Solomon with it, is going to be Amazon just not handling any of it anymore--just shutting down, starting with anything self-published. Folks have said this is a profit center, so they won't shut it down. Well, it's a miniscule profit center compared to their other profit centers and when it gets to be a real nuisance they'll just give it the ax. Books and mortars bookstores took this position from the get go--they just don't stock any self-published books except for rare exceptions of their own self-interest.

 

[Jay626]

So this Allison Hartman stole 7 stories on mine and has 200 stories posted. Please help find the other Authors and tell them. I am so thankful that another author spotted that my work was stolen and told me.