Pros and cons of using a volunteer editor?

[Nexte100]

I'm curious how the veterans around here have felt about using volunteer editors (those who have). Though I try, I'm not a grammar guru, and I know I make plenty of mistakes in my writing, despite the fact that I review it line by line a few times before submitting. I'm interested in the prospect of having someone more adept with these aspects giving me a sanity check prior to submission, but I have some concerns. Obviously, editing can be as surface level as spell/grammar checking, or as thorough as having someone act as a sounding board for character development and making significant changes to content in the name of a more focused story. Chiefly, my concerns are:

1. The intangible feeling of having to credit someone else with sharing in creating my brainchild.
2. Adding one more element of latency to the process.
3. Concerns over a potential offering of the work for sale purposes (e.g. Amazon) down the line (unlikely, but never say never). Would they need to be "cut in" for their contributions?

Those of you who have used or considered using a volunteer editor, what has been your experience with the process?

 

[Rustyoznail]

Up until I wrote here, my writing was all technical. I had no problems with my spelling and grammar, but the preferred layout had me tossed.

Heyall was my initial editor, and helped me with a lot of good tips. I have no problems giving credit where it’s due. Yes, it adds time to the process but it’s better than being rejected.

I don’t plan to sell my stories, but others who do may have ideas on how that would work.

Best of luck!

 

[SisterJezabel]

I'm curious how the veterans around here have felt about using volunteer editors (those who have). Though I try, I'm not a grammar guru, and I know I make plenty of mistakes in my writing, despite the fact that I review it line by line a few times before submitting. I'm interested in the prospect of having someone more adept with these aspects giving me a sanity check prior to submission, but I have some concerns. Obviously, editing can be as surface level as spell/grammar checking, or as thorough as having someone act as a sounding board for character development and making significant changes to content in the name of a more focused story. Chiefly, my concerns are:

1. The intangible feeling of having to credit someone else with sharing in creating my brainchild.
2. Adding one more element of latency to the process.
3. Concerns over a potential offering of the work for sale purposes (e.g. Amazon) down the line (unlikely, but never say never). Would they need to be "cut in" for their contributions?

Those of you who have used or considered using a volunteer editor, what has been your experience with the process?

I'm a volunteer editor who doesn't use VEs on my own stories ;-)

I do it because I like helping others. I don't ask to be credited and tell people they can if they want, but I don't edit to seek publicity.

I would never think I would be cut in on an Amazon deal!

 

[Nexte100]

Thank you for the thoughtful responses. Just to be clear, I would absolutely want to credit any assistance I would receive from an editor. To do otherwise would be grossly unfair to them.

Just trying to see if folks may have had experiences with this, positive or negative, that might get me off the fence.

Again, thanks for your input.

 

[BiscuitHammer]

I've been using a volunteer editor for just over two years now, and it's been fantastic. The sheer number of typos in my stories has dropped by a good 97%, and any of my late-night oversights about continuity errors have disappeared as well.

One thing I will say... it's all well and good if they're a nice person (mine is), but get you a pedant who develops an eyebrow twitch when they find errors, because they WILL let you know.

I'm terrible at self-editing, because I know what I meant to say, and just gloss over things and therefore don't see my errors. I very highly recommend an editor, even volunteer, if you can't self-edit.

 

[HeyAll]

I hear what you're saying about sharing credit for someone who just checks grammar. If I edit or give advice for someone's story, and I barely do anything, I decline credit.

But to your question, using an Editor is a roll of the dice. Some do a quick grammar check. But some actually do a lot of work which makes the story so much better. There are editors that I wish I could work with all time, but can't do their lack of time or whatever.

There's a reason why some authors work with the same editors for years. Because it makes the story so much better.

But those kinds of editors are very rare. As the author, you get the credit and enjoyment out of it. Editors don't have the same connection unless they really love doing it.

If you're looking for an editor, try to find one that goes beyond a grammar check and really has a strong grasp on writing and ideas.

 

[Haulover]

When I wrote a few novels that were published on mainstream media (25 years ago, way before Amazon etc.), I had a professional editor who was excellent - if expensive. The grammar and spell checks were minor - the real benefit was her advice on character development, story pacing, plot credibility, and so on.

Before I started writing here, I volunteer-edited for someone. I did for him exactly what my (excellent) editor had done for me, and he was royally pissed-off! He even took offense to my recommendations on smoother dialog ("Yes I will be there tomorrow" vs "Yep, I'll be there tomorrow").

So I stopped volunteer editing and don't have time to do it again.

I then had someone (a friend on these boards) edit one of my stories. He hated it, and dropped the project halfway through. The story is running 4.72 right now, so the readers seem to like it okay.

So I stopped using volunteer editors.

 

[yowser]

My experience is perhaps atypical (since I have only used editors when a piece was rejected - maybe a half dozen of my submissions, ten percent).

In general, it almost never hurts to have another pair of eyes (and a sentient being) review your work.

But, given it is a 'volunteer' program, it has all the deficits you would expect. Only two of the four or five listed editors ever responded to my queries (one quickly) and all of them mostly just confirmed my impressions ('hmm, don't see why this was rejected....'), one of them offering valuable advice.

If you manage to find a good (thoughtful, thorough) editor -- keep them! But it may take a bit of shopping. A committed 'beta-reader' with whom you have established a relationship may be more than adequate.

 

[MetaBob]

Definitely a mixed bag

I've only gotten useful feedback from one volunteer editor here. Most don't reply at all when asked, even within hours after advertising their services in exactly the genre(s) I've written a piece for. I don't really have unrecognized grammar or spelling issues, though because I use more complex, esoteric constructions than many are used to, some disagree and can be quite derogatory about it. (The "their way or it's wrong" crowd.) I asked about that once when I had something that was tricky to unwind. A shitshow resulted. I no longer ask about grammar or much of anything else, at least not here.

More often what I've seen is people only reading part of what I'd written (sometimes a very brief part), assuming they know where it's going, then criticizing it on the basis of that "knowledge," sometimes quite vehemently and riddled with insults while blissfully, intransigently incognizant that the very next sentence after they stopped reading utterly contradicts what they'd just spent paragraphs polemicizing about. Or trying to change the story (and its underlying themes) to something they like better. Or injecting their own genderized socio-politics as if it should be everyone's. Or, upon blatantly mis-reading something and being politely made aware of it, resorting to different and even more insulting and genderized language. Even after being profusely thanked for having helped make the piece better in other ways. Or not recognizing that some genres are written in very different ways than others, judging (say) a piece written in the style of a private-eye novel as if it were a romance.

A mixed bag, as I mentioned, some of it just head-scratching. But writers and their close relations, editors, can be sensitive and insecure, especially if they're not already getting paid for it, and even more especially now, when there's so much in the world to be legitimately apprehensive about.

When I've beta-read or edited the work of others, from novices to very experienced and highly skilled (and widely appreciated) writers, even some who get paid well for this as their main living, I try to be sensitive to their experience level. Novices can be fragile and easily discouraged. Some just want someone to read their stuff and tell them it's good. One asked that I not provide detailed feedback (including obvious misspellings). Some can't bear the thought of re-doing any part of their piece, even after requesting specific suggestions for exactly that.

Experienced writers are another breed entirely. Many want detailed feedback, both of lower-level outright mistakes (very rare and usually met with grateful thanks) and higher-level stuff like temporal inconsistencies or esoteric stuff that only a subject-matter expert would notice (what "bonking" or "hitting the wall" feels like, for instance). Others, on the other hand, even while acknowledging that your feedback is good and correct, won't change anything. Perhaps they can't bear the thought of re-doing their piece, either, but that's the author's prerogative. I'm certainly not going to belittle them for it.

I try to make clear when accepting a volunteer editing gig that the piece will remain the sole property of the author, and they're welcome to use any and all feedback I provide, or none. They own it, it's their choice. Mostly for this reason, I don't like to edit the original manuscript at all -- that's the author's property and I consider it sacrosanct. I'll provide feedback in a separate file for individual items with enough context to locate them easily, often suggesting changes. I find that works best when the author uses the spirit of the suggested changes rather than any suggested text; it'll sound like more their voice, which is the whole point.

That said, if I commit to editing, I'm going to do so in detail for as long as the author continues to want feedback. This can mean multiple passes, but I'm in for the long haul. For this reason, I don't lightly accept an editing request, especially from a novice writer. When all's said and done, I appreciate when an author thanks me for my contributions unless I specifically ask them not to, as was the case for the one volunteer editor who gave me useful feedback here.

For details on how I try to go about editing, see this, wherein I describe my editing process in excruciating detail, mostly for my own benefit since I'd never tried doing so before.

Best wishes,
-MɛtaBob

 

[Blind_Justice]

I would be lost without my editor. I'm helpless with punctuation and as a non-native speaker, I appreciate every bit of help I can get polishing my word use and sentence structure. I don't mind giving credit where it's due and should it come to paid publishing, I'm pretty sure he and I could come to a reasonable agreement. That's one reason why I've set up my Patreon in the first place - to have "work-related" funds available for cover art, paid editing etc.

Also... Sorry for not sticking with your story, Neil. No hard feelings, eh?

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm curious how the veterans around here have felt about using volunteer editors (those who have). Though I try, I'm not a grammar guru, and I know I make plenty of mistakes in my writing, despite the fact that I review it line by line a few times before submitting. I'm interested in the prospect of having someone more adept with these aspects giving me a sanity check prior to submission, but I have some concerns. Obviously, editing can be as surface level as spell/grammar checking, or as thorough as having someone act as a sounding board for character development and making significant changes to content in the name of a more focused story. Chiefly, my concerns are:

1. The intangible feeling of having to credit someone else with sharing in creating my brainchild.
2. Adding one more element of latency to the process.
3. Concerns over a potential offering of the work for sale purposes (e.g. Amazon) down the line (unlikely, but never say never). Would they need to be "cut in" for their contributions?

Those of you who have used or considered using a volunteer editor, what has been your experience with the process?

As others have noted, volunteer editors are a bit of a lucky dip: some editors know their stuff, some don't, and some who aren't clear on where "editor" leaves off and "co-author" begins. But even somebody whose spelling/grammar is worse than your own may spot some errors that you've missed, because it's hard to check your own work.

In professional publishing, it's not the norm to credit editors. I've edited dozens of non-fiction books and my name has never appeared in any of them AFAIK, even when I had to heavily rework material because the author was confused about the concepts they were trying to explain. Instead, I got money and more paid work, which suited me.

Here, it's a bit less settled. Some authors credit editors, some don't, some editors don't want to be credited. (Ultimately the author decides whether or not to take advice, and sometimes they don't. An editor may not want readers assuming that flaws in the text are their fault.)

Many authors here work on a reciprocal arrangement - I edit your stuff, you edit mine.

Potential sales: another grey area. Most Amazon self-publishers make so little money that it's not worth worrying about, and small payments may not be worth the hassle or the transfer/conversion fees. But if you were expecting to make a decent amount of money, it'd be unethical to exploit unpaid labour from editors who aren't aware of your commercial intentions.

Payment can be in-kind, though. There are a couple of authors here who edit for me, and in return I edit for them. I'm a pretty thorough editor and my own output is fairly small, so I like to think they're getting value back for the help they give me. If I wasn't able to reciprocate, and if I was expecting a story to sell well, I'd be talking to them about that and asking what they thought was fair.

 

[Haulover]

I would be lost without my editor. I'm helpless with punctuation and as a non-native speaker, I appreciate every bit of help I can get polishing my word use and sentence structure. I don't mind giving credit where it's due and should it come to paid publishing, I'm pretty sure he and I could come to a reasonable agreement. That's one reason why I've set up my Patreon in the first place - to have "work-related" funds available for cover art, paid editing etc.

Also... Sorry for not sticking with your story, Neil. No hard feelings, eh?

NP

 

[Nexte100]

Wow, a lot of fantastic and thoughtful replies. One of the advantages of a message board populated by writers, I imagine

Part of the reason why I feel like I could use some help is that, particularly for lengthy submissions, I feel like I spend hours (my most recent 14k word submission took me probably 4-5 hours to edit/proof) going over the same text to catch minor typos and inconsistencies. As someone else here mentioned, I find it difficult to proofread my own work due to a natural tendency to gloss over sections because I know their intent. This means I will go over the entire chapter 3-4 times to capture as much as I can, each time also finding little "happy to glad" things that I could improve. Figured even someone that could help with nothing more than proofreading and inconsistencies ("hey, doesn't this character have auburn hair, not brown?")

But based on the experiences of the folks on here, it sounds like I might need to curb my expectations a bit going into this.

Thanks again for your input.

 

[MetaBob]

Wow, a lot of fantastic and thoughtful replies. One of the advantages of a message board populated by writers, I imagine

Part of the reason why I feel like I could use some help is that, particularly for lengthy submissions, I feel like I spend hours (my most recent 14k word submission took me probably 4-5 hours to edit/proof) going over the same text to catch minor typos and inconsistencies. As someone else here mentioned, I find it difficult to proofread my own work due to a natural tendency to gloss over sections because I know their intent. This means I will go over the entire chapter 3-4 times to capture as much as I can, each time also finding little "happy to glad" things that I could improve. Figured even someone that could help with nothing more than proofreading and inconsistencies ("hey, doesn't this character have auburn hair, not brown?")

But based on the experiences of the folks on here, it sounds like I might need to curb my expectations a bit going into this.

Thanks again for your input.

One thing that works for me is to read over a piece in a different format. I write and edit in plain-text and that's fine, but my eyes grow accustomed to that text and sometimes skip past mistakes that can range from esoteric to glaring. So I'll try a different editor, such as Literotica's "Preview" mode, which changes the look of the piece and helps me find more things I might want to change. It's like a cheap easy way to direct another (virtual) pair of eyes, which helps a lot when I agonize over every word.

Try reading your piece aloud, whispering if you must. Try a different font, or different line and paragraph spacing, anything to change things up and help defeat your mind's very natural impulse to skim over text that you know so very well.

I also recommend trying grammarly. 95% of what it finds for me is crap, but that other 5%, when I'm trying to be as perfect as I can, helps.

 

[Salacious_Scribe]

I tried using VE's several times. Most of the ones I contacted never responded.

Those that did actually work on my pieces had results of varying quality.

One actually totally rewrote my piece even changed character names.

One was great but had some personal issues and didn't finish the piece she was working on. At least she let me know.

One made more typos then was in the original.

So I'm not a fan of the program. I know Lit rules fairly well and haven't had a story rejected in years. I use Hemmingway Editor and Grammarly to edit my stories. Yes there are still mistakes, but I'm not getting paid so deal with it.

 

[Nexte100]

I also recommend trying grammarly. 95% of what it finds for me is crap, but that other 5%, when I'm trying to be as perfect as I can, helps.

Wow, you just blew my mind. I wasn't aware of this service. I just tried the free version online with the submission I had sent. Darn thing picked up a stupid mistake in my very first sentence that I can't believe I made! I must have read right over it a dozen times as I wrote. Haha.

As you said though, many of the issues it picked up I had intentionally put in. I like to use colloquial speaking occasionally to make the dialogue feel more natural, and it didn't particularly like that. Shame there's not setting on there for "smut". Lol.

@Salacious_scribe. I'll try Hemingway editor also, thanks!

 

[Emirus]

It would be foolish for me to volunteer for Editor, but as I have no problems getting my stories accepted,

When I find lots of issues, I sometimes send a my comments on the first part to check if that's what they're really expecting, or if I'm wasting our time.

I've had one author who told me, after returning my first reaction within one day, that (s)he no longer needed my comments anymore, as already the work had been resubmitted again. No need for that author to contact me again. Sometimes Editors are useless or jerks, but several authors are not much better...in the end, the author is responsible for the story; they shouldn't hide behind me.

A while back another writer and myself had a relationship in which I was dealing with their technicalities and giving my opinion on what had been written and they worked on improving the quality of my writing. It was a very enjoyable and rewarding relationship for both of us but in the end we outgrew each other.

I very rarely accept when asked to edit and even more rarely offer to assist anyone. One writer I offered to assist, because I thought they had potential, sent me the story but there were so many things wrong I got so far in and then sent a preliminary edit. They disagreed, vehemently, with just about everything so that was the end of that. I had the experience of someone submitting before receiving my edit but I think it was because they were eager and it was about five days between receiving and me sending the edit.

When I have edited I’ve always told them it’s their story and if they want to accept what I’ve said that’s okay but if not it’s also okay. I’m not there to rewrite their story as I would have written it.

I don’t use an editor/proof reader now. As I’m writing I go back regularly to check over what I’ve written since I last checked. When it’s finished I check. I leave it a few days and then check again. If there’s anything I’ve missed then tough and anyway they’re never worth submitting an edit.

 

[davion2308]

Good and/or Bad

The VEs are a nice bunch for the most part and all the ones I've talked to have no connection or intent to commercialize their services. No one is looking at my stuff to see if it's saleable and I'm fine with that.

For the most part, they can pick out obvious mistakes, grammar errors, inconsistencies, and they help clean up stories (which, if you like looking at your score, is good for .1 to .25 added on). Voters hit you hard for grammar errors, spelling, and mundane story interruptions. An editor can take you from 3.95 to 4.15 with just a few red-colored notes on a Word document.

Saying that, the tough part is when you have a good story or something you like, and the editor inserts their opinions and thoughts about how the story *should* be written. It's an exercise in frustration when they say, 'It's technically and procedurally correct within the constraints of the English language but your characters should probably do ..... instead."

Now we're getting into questions about ownership of the work. It's my story. It's not your story. I'll edit as I see fit.

If you set the expectations that they will help with word selection, vocabulary, formatting, grammar, punctuation, etc, etc, and they're not getting in on the bigger picture, you'll have a good time. Criticism from people who are looking at the story itself isn't fun. When the VEs get out the feather duster and polish the look ... that's worth its weight in however long they take.