Afghanistan Going Forward

[SpeareChucker]

Republicans in the House are trying to introduce legislation
for a complete withdrawal of forces in Afghanistan.

How do Nancy and the Democrats play that tune?
Do they kill/ignore it for the short-term?
That would make for some interesting election-year politics...

Or, do they have the patience to play the long-term and allow a vote?
Who, in their right minds, in an election year, would vote for more war?
If we do completely bug-out, it will end up looking a lot like South Vietnam
when we did the "popular" thing and got the hell out of that war and then
the Democrats can lay all of that at the feet of Trump and the Republicans.

(And keep in mind that unlike his predecessors, Trump has yet,
despite the predictions that he would get us into WWIII, to start a war.)


So, I guess the question of the day is:

Is it time just to leave Afghanistan's plains and let the chips fall where they may?
Do #AfghanLivesMatter?

~~ or ~~​

#AmericanLivesMatter?

 

[WillJ8787]

There was never a time to be in Afghanistan. This was a bungled Republican decision (Bush W.) That ignored the strong history (Soviet Russian failure there) of failures of anyone having any success in that place. Democrats(Obama) then continue to a lesser degree to make the same mistakes.

I think this can will get kicked good and hard down the road.

 

[SpeareChucker]

This isn't a question of 20-20 hindsight...

 

[oggbashan]

It is not just Afghan and American lives. So many of the US's allies have lost troops there too.

We went there to stop Afghanistan from being a haven for terrorists attacking the West. Now many of them are in lawless parts of Pakistan. If we leave, they will be back in Afghanistan - unless the Afghans can produce an effective government that can stop terrorists returning.

If the US and its allies withdraw? Afghanistan will return to being a breeding ground for more terrorists. An effective Afghan government? Is that possible? So far, it seems not.

 

[SpeareChucker]

To bastardize an old-time football coach,
loosing becomes a habit...
That's current Kabul.

It's obvious what will happen when we leave,
the question is about the political football of departure.


'Cause the players tried to take the field
The marching band refused to yield
Do you recall what was revealed
The day the Afghans died?

We know the field but
who are the players?
who is the band?

 

[SpeareChucker]

... and they were wailing,
Bye bye we'll miss American pie!

 

[oggbashan]

... and they were wailing,
Bye bye we'll miss American pie!

But if the reason we went there in the first place is still valid?

If we (all of us, not just the US) leave - we have lost.

 

[jaF0]

Give it to Iran.

 

[oggbashan]

Give it to Iran.

And encourage more terrorist attacks on the West?

We didn't go to Afghanistan to save the Afghans. We went there to protect ourselves.

 

[SpeareChucker]

But if the reason we went there in the first place is still valid?

If we (all of us, not just the US) leave - we have lost.

Politically (domestically) the original reason does not matter
anymore than the repercussions matter.
The only thing that matters
are the election optics.


Our leaders are tactical experts
but only at gaining and holding power.
The majority of them reflect their constituents
who don't give a shit about Afghanistan and no longer
believe in, respect, or support the war on Islamic terrorism.

 

[SpeareChucker]

And encourage more terrorist attacks on the West?

We didn't go to Afghanistan to save the Afghans. We went there to protect ourselves.

7:1 jaF0 doesn't care other than in the political advantage sense...

 

[oggbashan]

Politically (domestically) the original reason does not matter
anymore than the repercussions matter.
The only thing that matters
are the election optics.


Our leaders are tactical experts
but only at gaining and holding power.
The majority of them reflect their constituents
who don't give a shit about Afghanistan and no longer
believe in, respect, or support the war on Islamic terrorism.

And that means that the US will ignore all the US and allied dead in Afghanistan just for an election?

You, and your allies, need better politicians than that.

 

[icanhelp1]

This isn't a question of 20-20 hindsight...

As long as Pakistan is a safe haven for the Taliban it's a no win situation, we need to get the fuck out out. We've given enough time, treasure and training to Afgani people, they lack the will, filled with corruption in the ranks. Get the fuck out.

 

[BrokenBarbie]

It will never be a “win”.

You can’t beat an insurgent, the hidden enemy within the population, unless you’re willing to go completely “scorched earth”.

We’re limited to either being bogged down forever, swift and blinding violence of an overwhelming nature, or walking away.

 

[jaF0]

Give it to Iran.

It will occupy them and their resources for decades.

 

[SpeareChucker]

And that means that the US will ignore all the US and allied dead in Afghanistan just for an election?

You, and your allies, need better politicians than that.

No, we need better voters
but we have turned education into indoctrination
and most of it is in the school of Zinn, or as Pogo* put it:

"We have met the enemy and he is US!"​

* Walt Kelly's comic-strip character.

 

[jaF0]

The entire region has been in conflict for centuries. Long before 'the west' existed. Let them duke it out.

 

[oggbashan]

The entire region has been in conflict for centuries. Long before 'the west' existed. Let them duke it out.

And if that means they produce more terrorists to attack the West?

 

[SpeareChucker]

Give it to Iran.

It will occupy them and their resources for decades.

It will create a dynamic tag-team or have you slept through everything
since the fall of the Shah and the Russian adventures in Kabul?


We (and our 'allies' - for Ogg) are the only peoples to have made any real difference.
Where we protect, they are free of fundamentalist religious edict
which is something Democrats are fully on board with here...





... but maybe not so much with those "other people."

It's clearly what they want.

:nods:

(Which is why protected Afghanistan is fighting us so vociferously
and giving their women more Liberty that Fundamentalism allows.)

 

[SpeareChucker]

And if that means they produce more terrorists to attack the West?

As with all elections, once the Democrats win,
they can deal with that much more effectively
than the Republicans can (but they won't -
it hurts their ability to buy voters...).

 

[SpeareChucker]

It will never be a “win”.

You can’t beat an insurgent, the hidden enemy within the population, unless you’re willing to go completely “scorched earth”.

We’re limited to either being bogged down forever, swift and blinding violence of an overwhelming nature, or walking away.

The question is walking away and who is wiling to do it.
Right now the political set-up is emerging with
the Republicans saying we are the party
of walking away from Afghanistan.
Do Democrats join or oppose?

 

[BrokenBarbie]

Well if they quietly oppose, not make a big splash about it, a few small press blurbs advising caution, then they can come back and say “we opposed this!” later.

 

[jaF0]

The 'progress' we've made is to further destabilize the region and foster increased hatred of the west. We need to get out and let them resolve their own issues. We don't poke them, they won't poke us. They did just fine for 10,000 years before U.S.


Greed for oil led us there to begin with. Greed alone is the cause.

 

[SpeareChucker]

Well if they quietly oppose, not make a big splash about it, a few small press blurbs advising caution, then they can come back and say “we opposed this!” later.

The veneer of opposition covering the years of demand for withdrawal
that was so subdued under President Obama that we never
really heard of it but was given voice under big orange?

 

[SpeareChucker]

The 'progress' we've made is to further destabilize the region and foster increased hatred of the west. We need to get out and let them resolve their own issues. We don't poke them, they won't poke us. They did just fine for 10,000 years before U.S.


Greed for oil led us there to begin with. Greed alone is the cause.

Dude, do y'all ever give up on an established mantra?
They have/had significant oil production?
They are too prolific at war...


Serious.