supreme court rules that about half of oklahoma is native-american reservation land

[butters]

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/09/8895...es-that-about-half-of-oklahoma-is-indian-land

missed this but it's about time; having said that, it's not really a case of land-rights but jurisdictional ones

"The Supreme Court today kept the United States' sacred promise to the Muscogee (Creek) Nation of a protected reservation," the tribe said in a statement. "Today's decision will allow the Nation to honor our ancestors by maintaining our established sovereignty and territorial boundaries."

The ruling has a number of significant consequences for criminal law in the relevant portion of Oklahoma.

The first is that going forward, certain major crimes committed within the boundaries of reservations must be prosecuted in federal court rather than state court, if a Native American is involved. So if a Native American is accused of a major crime in downtown Tulsa, the federal government rather than the state government will prosecute it. Less serious crimes involving Native Americans on American Indian land will be handled in tribal courts. This arrangement is already common in Western states like Arizona, New Mexico and Montana, said Washburn.

Oklahoma Attorney General Mike Hunter released a joint statement with the Muscogee (Creek), Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw and Seminole nations on Thursday, indicating that they "have made substantial progress toward an agreement to present to Congress and the U.S. Department of Justice addressing and resolving any significant jurisdictional issues."

 

[Rightguide]

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/09/8895...es-that-about-half-of-oklahoma-is-indian-land

missed this but it's about time; having said that, it's not really a case of land-rights but jurisdictional ones

They are still subject to federal law.

 

[WillJ8787]

Such a good ruling by Trump appointees....thank you Donald!

 

[butters]

Such a good ruling by Trump appointees....thank you Donald!

breakdown:

The decision was 5-4, with Justices Gorsuch, Sonia Sotomayor, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Elena Kagan and Stephen Breyer in the majority, while Justices John Roberts, Brett Kavanaugh, Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas dissented.

 

[butters]

They are still subject to federal law.

i don't believe they have an issue with that; this ruling means they're now considered more a county when it comes to jurisdiction, lesser 'crimes' being tried by native bodies and higher crimes under federal law.

 

[HisArpy]

i don't believe they have an issue with that; this ruling means they're now considered more a county when it comes to jurisdiction, lesser 'crimes' being tried by native bodies and higher crimes under federal law.

It's absolutely laughable.

All those people who purchased property "on the (new) reservations" without tribal approval, are SO FUCKED right now.

Every criminal convicted in State Courts inside "the (new) reservations" can have their conviction overturned and expunged. If they're currently incarcerated, they MUST BE released.

Anyone want to guess how much of the taxes that the citizens paid to the local governments has to be refunded to them? Trillions? Quadrillions?

And all of those police, firefighters, government employees and so on are out of a job too.

It's laughable.

 

[Klinkster]

It's absolutely laughable.

All those people who purchased property "on the (new) reservations" without tribal approval, are SO FUCKED right now.

Every criminal convicted in State Courts inside "the (new) reservations" can have their conviction overturned and expunged. If they're currently incarcerated, they MUST BE released.

Anyone want to guess how much of the taxes that the citizens paid to the local governments has to be refunded to them? Trillions? Quadrillions?

And all of those police, firefighters, government employees and so on are out of a job too.

It's laughable.

Goat rope is more like it.

How are people, living on what is reservation land, going to own, what the Native Americans can't own?

Land on the rez, is held in trust, by the Feds.

Goat rope.

 

[rae121452]

uh-oh! time to get busy, they're not going to fuck THEMSELVES out of their own land. where is the government?

 

[HisArpy]

Goat rope is more like it.

How are people, living on what is reservation land, going to own, what the Native Americans can't own?

Land on the rez, is held in trust, by the Feds.

Goat rope.

Which means that all those people who bought houses inside the rez area, are fucked unless they have some sort of document which authorizes their purchase.

Chicago Title is in deep doo doo too.

 

[phrodeau]

So crimes occurring on the reservations will be tried by higher courts. That explains why the oil and gas industry heads are worried.

 

[Bad_Egg]

That's for damn sure, they have the best peyote.

So crimes occurring on the reservations will be tried by higher courts. That explains why the oil and gas industry heads are worried.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1e/7e/51/1e7e5199ae3b18b636f600f3bbed59a3.jpg

 

[FL30]

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/09/8895...es-that-about-half-of-oklahoma-is-indian-land

missed this but it's about time; having said that, it's not really a case of land-rights but jurisdictional ones

All of America at one point or another was Indian Land.

 

[Tigersman]

Elected officials in cities, towns and communities in Indian Territory are on edge too as now the Tribal Council is in charge, Any person who is currently holding an elected position in the Senate or House, be they state or US are out of a job.

 

[Rightguide]

It's absolutely laughable.

All those people who purchased property "on the (new) reservations" without tribal approval, are SO FUCKED right now.

Every criminal convicted in State Courts inside "the (new) reservations" can have their conviction overturned and expunged. If they're currently incarcerated, they MUST BE released.

Anyone want to guess how much of the taxes that the citizens paid to the local governments has to be refunded to them? Trillions? Quadrillions?

And all of those police, firefighters, government employees and so on are out of a job too.

It's laughable.

It looks like the decision addresses only jurisdiction and not property ownership. From what I've read a tribal member accused of crimes in that part of the state will be subject to tribal and federal jurisdiction which will be tried in Federal Court instead of state court. I don't see anything about transfers of land or property titles, changes in the power of taxation, or a redirection of revenues, etc.

Roberts, in his dissent wrote: “On top of that, the Court has profoundly destabilized the governance of eastern Oklahoma,” Roberts wrote. “The decision today creates significant uncertainty for the State’s continuing authority over any area that touches Indian affairs, ranging from zoning and taxation to family and environmental law.”


Gorsuch writing for the majority said, “Today we are asked whether the land these treaties promised remains an Indian reservation for purposes of federal criminal law,Because Congress has not said otherwise, we hold the government to its word,”

It seems to me that Congress has the final say what the parameters of this decision will mean going forward. Congress does have the power to define the law with the reservation. The President does have the authority to unilaterally withdraw from a treaty as was done by President George W. Bush when he unilaterally withdrew the U.S. from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty in 2002, and President Jimmy Carter acted unilaterally to end America’s 1954 mutual defense treaty with Taiwan. When Senator Goldwater and others sued in federal court against the President the ultimate position of the SCOTUS was that the case presented a “nonjusticiable political question”—meaning that the courts had no authority to rule on the matter. When President George W. Bush abrogated the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty (ABM) in 2001-2002 he was immediately sued by Dennis Kucinich, and 32 members of Congress. A federal judge dismissed their suit saying that “issues concerning treaties are largely political questions best left to the political branches of the government, not the courts, for resolution.”

 

[Biggs_Darklighter]

It's absolutely laughable.

All those people who purchased property "on the (new) reservations" without tribal approval, are SO FUCKED right now.

Every criminal convicted in State Courts inside "the (new) reservations" can have their conviction overturned and expunged. If they're currently incarcerated, they MUST BE released.

Anyone want to guess how much of the taxes that the citizens paid to the local governments has to be refunded to them? Trillions? Quadrillions?

And all of those police, firefighters, government employees and so on are out of a job too.

It's laughable.

Most of what you said isn't true.
You're a seriously shitty lawyer.

 

[Biggs_Darklighter]

Elected officials in cities, towns and communities in Indian Territory are on edge too as now the Tribal Council is in charge, Any person who is currently holding an elected position in the Senate or House, be they state or US are out of a job.

And that's not true either.

jeebus doesn't anyone actually read things anymore?

 

[HisArpy]

Most of what you said isn't true.
You're a seriously shitty lawyer.

Tell us smartmouth;

What EXACTLY do you think happens when someone lays claim to land within a sovereign territory other than the US with the intent to covert it into private property?

The land in question is either tribal land and there is no chain of title from the tribal authority, or it's held in trust via the US Federal government with no chain of title from the government to the private citizen.

Either way, you have ZERO support to the title to your house.

 

[sundries]

This is a topic of great interest to me.

I think that Native Americans, Innuits, Maoris, Aboriginals and Black South Africans (but NOT African Americans) need more advantages.
After all, we're all living on THEIR land.

But how can you avoid the pitfalls of enabling either moochers or frauds like Elizabeth Warren or Nathan Philips?

All those people who purchased property "on the (new) reservations" without tribal approval, are SO FUCKED right now.

Every criminal convicted in State Courts inside "the (new) reservations" can have their conviction overturned and expunged. If they're currently incarcerated, they MUST BE released.

Anyone want to guess how much of the taxes that the citizens paid to the local governments has to be refunded to them? Trillions? Quadrillions?

And all of those police, firefighters, government employees and so on are out of a job too.

And specific to the thread: HA and others who are specialized and understand these nuances, brought up interesting pitfalls/cons and pros.

But please break it down for the rest of us. I just struggle to understand.

 

[sundries]

Does this mean that you're ShittyMcGee the Canadian?
Or Luk prettending to be ShittyMcGee? Or ShittyMcGee pretending to be as dumb as Luk?

 

[Biggs_Darklighter]

Tell us smartmouth;

What EXACTLY do you think happens when someone lays claim to land within a sovereign territory other than the US with the intent to covert it into private property?

The land in question is either tribal land and there is no chain of title from the tribal authority, or it's held in trust via the US Federal government with no chain of title from the government to the private citizen.

Either way, you have ZERO support to the title to your house.

Dont' you think if people were about to lose their homes that this story might be a just a tad bigger than it is? That maybe millions of people in Oklahoma might be having a hissy fit right now but they're not at all? In fact nobody really gives a shit because it's a non story for about 99% of the population.

The decision has NOTHING to do with land, property or anything of the like. It's about Native American criminals and what jurisdiction they fall under. That's it. Nobnody is losing their land, nobody is losing their job. All you'ld have to do is read about it.
Even Vette bothered to actually look and see what it meant.

 

[HisArpy]

Dont' you think if people were about to lose their homes that this story might be a just a tad bigger than it is? That maybe millions of people in Oklahoma might be having a hissy fit right now but they're not at all? In fact nobody really gives a shit because it's a non story for about 99% of the population.

The decision has NOTHING to do with land, property or anything of the like. It's about Native American criminals and what jurisdiction they fall under. That's it. Nobnody is losing their land, nobody is losing their job. All you'ld have to do is read about it.
Even Vette bothered to actually look and see what it meant.

The land belongs to the tribal authority. It's been recognized to be RESERVATION LAND now and has ALWAYS BEEN reservation land. It's not private property, it's an Indian reservation.

As a practical matter, when you buy a house the title company warrants that the seller actually has marketable title. That's why people use title companies, to ensure that all the ducks are in a row so that the buyer isn't be defrauded by a con man who doesn't have title.

Because if you buy a house from someone who doesn't actually have title, then you don't own the house. Plus you're out the money you paid if you can't find the guy after escrow closes.

Per this decision by the US Supreme Court, THE LAND belongs to the tribal authority. If you own a house inside the reservation border, somewhere in the chain of title for that house there MUST BE a deed transferring title from either the tribe or the US Government to the first private citizen homesteader. If there isn't then EVERY DEED ISSUED AFTER THAT is based on the first false title. Which makes each and every one of them false as well because none of the sellers/current owners has valid title to the land.

It's a incurable title defect and every title company that warranted that the title during the sale was clear committed professional malpractice.


Now, I don't believe that the tribal authority is going to kick all those millions of people out of their homes. That's just an unworkable objective that will only result in another Indian war that the Tribe won't win. The solution will likely be to execute some kind of blanket transfer that gives up all the land in the area that is currently under a title by a private citizen.

However, since that hasn't happened yet, the land still belongs to the tribal authority and not the people who own the homes inside the reservation. Further, few people realize that when you purchase property from a tax lien sale, the title company will no longer warrant the chain of title as "clear" because, while the tax authority of the county has the legal authority to seize and sell the property, they ARE NOT the "legal title holder of record". So, even if there is a blanket release by the tribal authority, if you purchased a home in reliance upon the title being valid with a CLEAN chain of title, you may have an actionable claim against the title company anyway because now your title, just like the title after a lien sale, is "clouded".

In this case, the land belongs to the tribal authority unless the owners already have a deed from the tribal authority or the US government for the property in question. A retroactive deed transfer may prevent the land from reverting back to tribal ownership, but it doesn't alter the fact that the chain of title is based on a false deed transfer. Every warranty that the title was "clear" was an actionable lie that can be traced straight back to the original settler. That persons heirs and assigns are also liable for damages if they can be found and successfully sued for fraud.

Real property law is filled with archaic terms and concepts that traditional modern society doesn't comprehend very well. It's rigid and unyielding and there isn't ANY "gray area". You either own the land, or you don't.

 

[Biggs_Darklighter]

The land belongs to the tribal authority. It's been recognized to be RESERVATION LAND now and has ALWAYS BEEN reservation land. It's not private property, it's an Indian reservation.

As a practical matter, when you buy a house the title company warrants that the seller actually has marketable title. That's why people use title companies, to ensure that all the ducks are in a row so that the buyer isn't be defrauded by a con man who doesn't have title.

Because if you buy a house from someone who doesn't actually have title, then you don't own the house. Plus you're out the money you paid if you can't find the guy after escrow closes.

Per this decision by the US Supreme Court, THE LAND belongs to the tribal authority. If you own a house inside the reservation border, somewhere in the chain of title for that house there MUST BE a deed transferring title from either the tribe or the US Government to the first private citizen homesteader. If there isn't then EVERY DEED ISSUED AFTER THAT is based on the first false title. Which makes each and every one of them false as well because none of the sellers/current owners has valid title to the land.

It's a incurable title defect and every title company that warranted that the title during the sale was clear committed professional malpractice.


Now, I don't believe that the tribal authority is going to kick all those millions of people out of their homes. That's just an unworkable objective that will only result in another Indian war that the Tribe won't win. The solution will likely be to execute some kind of blanket transfer that gives up all the land in the area that is currently under a title by a private citizen.

However, since that hasn't happened yet, the land still belongs to the tribal authority and not the people who own the homes inside the reservation. Further, few people realize that when you purchase property from a tax lien sale, the title company will no longer warrant the chain of title as "clear" because, while the tax authority of the county has the legal authority to seize and sell the property, they ARE NOT the "legal title holder of record". So, even if there is a blanket release by the tribal authority, if you purchased a home in reliance upon the title being valid with a CLEAN chain of title, you may have an actionable claim against the title company anyway because now your title, just like the title after a lien sale, is "clouded".

In this case, the land belongs to the tribal authority unless the owners already have a deed from the tribal authority or the US government for the property in question. A retroactive deed transfer may prevent the land from reverting back to tribal ownership, but it doesn't alter the fact that the chain of title is based on a false deed transfer. Every warranty that the title was "clear" was an actionable lie that can be traced straight back to the original settler. That persons heirs and assigns are also liable for damages if they can be found and successfully sued for fraud.

Real property law is filled with archaic terms and concepts that traditional modern society doesn't comprehend very well. It's rigid and unyielding and there isn't ANY "gray area". You either own the land, or you don't.

You obviously still haven't read anything and are just assuming based on a headline.

 

[HisArpy]

Other issues arise in connection with the land.

For instance, if the land is tribal land held in trust by the US government, then all property within the county/state that was taxed by the state, under pain of seizure and sale of said property, was UNLAWFULLY TAXED.

Reservation land is sovereign territory and the county has no authority to tax and/or seize the land.

So, if you own a home inside the boundary of the reservation, you're owed all those years of taxes PLUS INTEREST that you paid to the State/county.

If the county seized and sold the land for nonpayment of taxes, the owner of the property at the time can sue for return of the property and can evict the current residents without consideration or repayment of their purchase money because the county had ZERO ability to seize and sell land of a sovereign nation.

The fun part about all of this is that the litigation will be in tribal court, not US courts or even State courts. From there, in some reservations, tribal court decrees and decisions aren't binding on the tribal authority and they can disregard the outcome if they so choose. Thus, even if you win, you can still lose.

Ain't lawyering fun?

 

[HisArpy]

You obviously still haven't read anything and are just assuming based on a headline.

dudly, if the land is reservation land for purposes of criminal prosecution, then it's reservation land for all other purposes as well.

That you don't understand that doesn't alter the facts.

 

[Biggs_Darklighter]

dudly, if the land is reservation land for purposes of criminal prosecution, then it's reservation land for all other purposes as well.

That you don't understand that doesn't alter the facts.

Let's see one credible source that says any of the shit you say is gonna happen.
You said the title company was in deep shit.
You said all criminals must be released.
You said all taxes must be repaid.
You said all cops, fire, etc are out of jobs.

So prove your bullshit.