My Series Imperius

[Damoiselle]

My Series, Imperius

Lit just accepted the 7th chapter of my noncon series Imperius. It's an oddball mix of war drama and retro-futurist pulp fiction. https://www.literotica.com/s/imperius-ch-07

I've been on the fence for a while about inviting feedback, because while I am interested in notes, I'm not necessarily hungry for some of the most obvious one about stories in this category.

For example, I know that the male lead is a bad guy because I made him that way, and people who tell me that he's an asshole...my first internal feeling is confusion, not because I don't agree, but it seems as fulfilling as informing me that there's chlorine in my pool (I knew there was chlorine in my pool. I submitted my pool to Pools and chlorination monthly. Surely the latter at least allows for at least some degree of probability that it's going to be one of the ones with chlorination?).

So basically I'm saying that there's a selectiveness in the request. I don't want anyone who feels uncomfortable with noncon stories to get an impression that I'm asking them to put themselves through it anyway to give me feedback. I really really don't. I'm exclusively interested in feedback from people who are internally comfortable with reading and discussing the category--assuming the possibly underserved idea that there are people who want to give me that.

I think I'm prepped for notes about the pacing, but I'm curious to see if I'm tough enough to handle anything more rigorous than that.



For the record, this is intended as an option to tell me any thoughts you have about any chapter in the series, no matter how minute they might be.

 

[SimonDoom]

I haven't read the whole story yet but I read the chapter. I have no problem with noncon stories. A few thoughts:

You're a good writer, with a good feel for words and an obvious command of grammar and style. You turn some really nice phrases. You have a gift for that and it makes reading your story a pleasure.

Like this:

She writhed in futility, clearly not knowing how to fight both her panic and her arousal simultaneously.

That's a sentence that perfectly captures the eroticism of noncon. I might quibble whether the word "clearly" is necessary but the rest of it is good, and the way you yolk "panic" and "arousal" together is great. You couldn't do any better to express the essence of noncon with those two words.

With most authors, their weakness is that they don't delve deeply enough into their characters' feelings. It's just insert part A in slot B. This, to say the least, is not a weakness in your writing. You keep the reader up on your character's feelings the whole time.

There are a lot of great passages in the story, like this one:

She was gasping, her voice quaking with pleasure, but she wasn't screaming yet.

He would fix that.

He withdrew, and thrust in again, and she let out the cry he wanted to hear.

I love that. In a few words you say a lot with this passage. You use short words. The economy of the words makes the passage that much sexier and hotter.

Sometimes the writing is a bit more flowery and less focused, and what seems like the desire for the words to "sound" a certain way gets in the way of clarity and grammar.

For example:

His gaze sharpened, losing their deep thoughtfulness and cutting back to Saphir.

"Their" in this sentence has no antecedent. It seems to refer to "eyes" in the previous paragraph, but it's not a clear sentence. I think this was a case of wanting to say something a certain way getting in the way of clarity. "Deep thoughfulness" is a bit fuzzy, to me. It's telling, not showing.

Also, you overuse the word "gaze" in your story. "Gaze" is a good word, especially in romance, even noncon romance, but you don't want to overuse it.

The one mechanical objection I had with this story is I felt you didn't have enough command over point of view. It's OK to shift POV from one section to another, I suppose, but within a given section the story would be stronger if you stuck with one character's point of view. In noncon, especially, you want the reader to focus on one character's feelings or the other's, but you don't want to ping pong the reader back and forth between the aggressor and the agressee. By doing so you risk losing the reader.

For example, the last section of the story that begins "Magnus searched" is from his point of view. But it contains this paragraph:

He moved to the silk-soft skin of her throat, and her breathing turned still more shallow. He frightened her as obviously as he aroused her--not because she feared he wanted to do her harm—not because she didn't see what he would do to protect her--but because she saw too well. She saw the jagged, greedy hunger underneath the stoicism.

That's from her point of view, not his. So it takes me, the reader, out of his sustained point of view, which up to this point you have done an excellent job of capturing. Stick with one POV at a time in a story like this.

Anyway, those are a few random thoughts. I enjoyed it and when I get time will go back to chapter 1 and read from the beginning.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

As you know, I'm not an objective reader. I'm a fan of the series. I thought it was another great chapter. There were choices that were different than ones I would have made, but that's a good thing. I thought that your choices were well-executed.

I can understand the feeling that the diction is a little flowery, but for me, at least, it suits the story. It's consistent, and that's what I think is most important. I prefer not to use overtly romantic language in my stories, but I can enjoy it where it's done well. It just doesn't work for me when a story is written in what I think of as generic diction and idiom and then switches to Harlequin Romance. (Not saying yours is Harlequin Romance, thank goodness!)

I wasn't bothered by the change in perspective Simon pointed out. I know others will probably point it out, too, but I think it's' a matter of preference and technique. I strongly prefer smooth, almost unnoticeable transitions between perspectives within a particular tableau. I like seeing parts of a sequence from different points of view without having each character rehash the scene from their own perspective. I think that avoiding the switches in view point is a convention rather than a staple of good writing. Like most conventions, it's there for a reason. The reason, I believe, is that it can be jarring or confusing. If it is done without being jarring or confusing, I see no need to adhere to the convention. I did not find your fluidity jarring or confusing.

Your sex scenes do what I always want my own to do, which is to be part of the action. They carry the plot forward and they develop the characters. I've seen articles and posts from people allegedly (and probably really) from the publishing industry who say that if something in an erotic story isn't there to provide sexual excitement, it doesn't belong. I think that's just sad. It probably explains a lot about the novel-length erotic fiction that gets published. At their best, sex scenes serve more than one function in a work with a plot beyond the sex scene itself. It's fine if they don't, provided they maintain consistency of character, but I feel like it's a wasted in opportunity when the sex scene is a separate chunk from the rest of the story.

You do not waste opportunities in your sex scenes, and they keep improving.

Also, I have stolen a couple of words from you that I intend to use. I have just the spot for "flare." It will replace "surge" which I used once already. So, please and thank you.

The only repetition that jumped out at me was "jagged." It's only there twice. I see Simon picked up on "gaze." I suspect I also overuse "gaze." But dammit, there's a scarcity of appropriate synonyms. (Someone prove me wrong, please. I' can make good use of the list of alternatives. And it's cheating to include variations on "met so-and-so's eyes" or things that aren't interchangeable, like stare or glare.)

I'm sorry I don't have more constructive criticism, but like I said, I'm a fan.

 

[SimonDoom]

Following up on two things:

Re what EON said about POV: I stand by my point but I admit I violate my own rule a lot, so take that for what it's worth. There's no real rule. If it works, it's right. The thing about writing is there's no definitive rule that determines if it's going to work or not.

I want to follow up on something I said about your writing: you do turn a nice phrase. You have a feel for how the words flow and sound. Emphasize that and work it. Keep doing what you do well. Make it a part of your style.

Something I think I do well, if I may say so, is last lines. I work on it. As I write my story I think about what the last line will be. It's often a line of dialogue. The way I write my stories, I feel like the whole point of the story is to get to the last line, and I want the last line to strike just the right note.

Focus on what you do well and make it your trademark. It makes it more fun to write when you write to your strengths.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Following up on two things:

Re what EON said about POV: I stand by my point but I admit I violate my own rule a lot, so take that for what it's worth. There's no real rule. If it works, it's right. The thing about writing is there's no definitive rule that determines if it's going to work or not.

I want to follow up on something I said about your writing: you do turn a nice phrase. You have a feel for how the words flow and sound. Emphasize that and work it. Keep doing what you do well. Make it a part of your style.

Something I think I do well, if I may say so, is last lines. I work on it. As I write my story I think about what the last line will be. It's often a line of dialogue. The way I write my stories, I feel like the whole point of the story is to get to the last line, and I want the last line to strike just the right note.

Focus on what you do well and make it your trademark. It makes it more fun to write when you write to your strengths.

What you were supposed to say is, "Here's a long list of synonyms for 'gaze' you overlooked, EoN, you big dummy," followed by a long list.

 

[SimonDoom]

What you were supposed to say is, "Here's a long list of synonyms for 'gaze' you overlooked, EoN, you big dummy," followed by a long list.

Hey, do you have permission to use that Avatar?

He ducks, as she picks up a heavy object to throw at him.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Hey, do you have permission to use that Avatar?

He ducks, as she picks up a heavy object to throw at him.

It probably depends on how nice I've been to the artist lately.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

I read the first three chapters so far, and it’s a good story. But especially after the third chapter, I have a question about categories and genres. I don’t have real “feedback”; this is really just for my own edification. TIA for your indulgence.

What are the characteristics of a non-con story, and what makes this a non-con story?

I’m not familiar with non-con; I don’t think I’ve read anything in this category before. My presumption was that the genre is stories where a character (or multiple) do not consent to sex—stories where lack of consent is a primary factor of the plot and, if not outright assault, nonetheless the sex acts are, to some degree, tortious. Setting aside the Miller Test and what Laurel herself will allow, my thought was non-con stories would run a spectrum ranging from minor non-consent (e.g., a wife who gives in to her husband despite not really wanting to at that specific time) on one end, to extreme violence (e.g., a snuff film) on the other. On this basis, I’ve even turned down a couple of editing requests for stories solely because this was my view of the genre.

But your story seems to be more about reluctance and seduction than what I would have called a non-consenting encounter. And this is a story world where consent doesn’t seem to be needed anyways. That, combined with the lyricism, and pleasure slave status and certain specific plot points and turns of phrase, and your story strongly reminds me of, for example, Ann Rice’s The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty, which I personally wouldn’t think of as a “non-consent” story but a dark romance, or fantasy BDSM.

Obviously, based on your story’s success and readership, I’m wrong. I just would like to know why by understanding the distinctions that I’m missing, and the reader expectations and likes/dislikes in this genre.

 

[SimonDoom]

I read the first three chapters so far, and it’s a good story. But especially after the third chapter, I have a question about categories and genres. I don’t have real “feedback”; this is really just for my own edification. TIA for your indulgence.

What are the characteristics of a non-con story, and what makes this a non-con story?

I’m not familiar with non-con; I don’t think I’ve read anything in this category before. My presumption was that the genre is stories where a character (or multiple) do not consent to sex—stories where lack of consent is a primary factor of the plot and, if not outright assault, nonetheless the sex acts are, to some degree, tortious. Setting aside the Miller Test and what Laurel herself will allow, my thought was non-con stories would run a spectrum ranging from minor non-consent (e.g., a wife who gives in to her husband despite not really wanting to at that specific time) on one end, to extreme violence (e.g., a snuff film) on the other. On this basis, I’ve even turned down a couple of editing requests for stories solely because this was my view of the genre.

But your story seems to be more about reluctance and seduction than what I would have called a non-consenting encounter. And this is a story world where consent doesn’t seem to be needed anyways. That, combined with the lyricism, and pleasure slave status and certain specific plot points and turns of phrase, and your story strongly reminds me of, for example, Ann Rice’s The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty, which I personally wouldn’t think of as a “non-consent” story but a dark romance, or fantasy BDSM.

Obviously, based on your story’s success and readership, I’m wrong. I just would like to know why by understanding the distinctions that I’m missing, and the reader expectations and likes/dislikes in this genre.

I think this IS a noncon story, and it's captured in this line from the story:

She writhed in futility, clearly not knowing how to fight both her panic and her arousal simultaneously.

Noncon stories inhabit a fantasy space that appeals to two types of people: a) those who want to be taken sexually, against their will, or perhaps more accurately regardless of their will, and b) those who want to take another sexually, without getting that person's consent, but somehow knowing, intuitively, that the other person does, in fact, want to be taken. It's a complicated space that embraces a variety of kinds of stories, but the essence of it, if there is such a thing, is internal conflict between the need to be taken and the desire not to be taken. That conflict, in whatever form, is what makes the story erotic. In that sense I think this clearly is a noncon story. The internal conflict clearly is present in the heroine.

It's not so much a matter of what happens externally as it is about how the characters experience what is happening.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

I think this IS a noncon story, and it's captured in this line from the story:

She writhed in futility, clearly not knowing how to fight both her panic and her arousal simultaneously.

Noncon stories inhabit a fantasy space that appeals to two types of people: a) those who want to be taken sexually, against their will, or perhaps more accurately regardless of their will, and b) those who want to take another sexually, without getting that person's consent, but somehow knowing, intuitively, that the other person does, in fact, want to be taken. It's a complicated space that embraces a variety of kinds of stories, but the essence of it, if there is such a thing, is internal conflict between the need to be taken and the desire not to be taken. That conflict, in whatever form, is what makes the story erotic. In that sense I think this clearly is a noncon story. The internal conflict clearly is present in the heroine.

It's not so much a matter of what happens externally as it is about how the characters experience what is happening.

This doesn’t help answer the questions I’ve asked; it’s all rather generic.

The sentence you quoted could just as easily have been from, for example, a CFNF story or an E&V story or a Romance. There are hundreds if not possibly thousands of “romance” stories, both commercial and amateur, prefaced on the A/B modes of sexual tension you described.

I haven’t disagreed at all that this is a non-con story; I don’t challenge it, and acknowledge that I misunderstand the genre. But knowing that it’s like other genres just it’s called non-con doesn’t help me understand the distinctions.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

This doesn’t help answer the questions I’ve asked; it’s all rather generic.

The sentence you quoted could just as easily have been from, for example, a CFNF story or an E&V story or a Romance. There are hundreds if not possibly thousands of “romance” stories, both commercial and amateur, prefaced on the A/B modes of sexual tension you described.

I haven’t disagreed at all that this is a non-con story; I don’t challenge it, and acknowledge that I misunderstand the genre. But knowing that it’s like other genres just it’s called non-con doesn’t help me understand the distinctions.

I think the easiest answer is that the category isn't what you may believe it is. The full title of the category is Non-Consent/Reluctance. I think the vast majority of the stories there lean toward reluctance. I'm not trying to speak for Damoiselle's reasons for putting it there, but the rationale I generally apply is that if there's an element that's anywhere along the edges of lacking full consent, it should go in noncon so that someone who is sensitive to such issues isn't confronted with it. Nobody wants someone who's experienced one of the fuzzier versions of date rape to accidentally happen across a story where one character pressures another into sex. A common feature of many stories in the category is that the "victim" has a literal choice, but no realistic choice. Is that real consent? Legally, maybe, depending on the circumstances. But ethically? No. There's necessarily a disparity in the power dynamic that makes consent dubious. (Maybe think of it as a conscionabiity analysis.)

I think one of the interesting things about the non-con category is that real rape is generally accepted not to be about sex. In the non-con category, it's definitely about the sex, and the psychology that drives it. That doesn't mean there aren't some sick little twerps writing stories that are artless violence and degradation, but those don't generally crawl high enough up the ratings to be seen unless people just look at random stories. Most of the authors in the category are women. I'm pretty sure most of the readers are, too.

The appeal is all in the psychology. I don't think it's going to be easy to understand why a story like Imperius is in the non-con category if you look at it within a legal or quasi-legal framework. I think you would have to read some of the stories in the category and see feelings and motivations they are exploring. There's a commonality to them that I think would lead you to see why they are in the same category, even if you may disagree with the designation of the category.

Certainly, many of these could go in romance, but out of sensitivity to the many people who don't need to be reminded of traumatic life experiences, I think it's best that they don't.

 

[Damoiselle]

Thanks for the feedback, it's very appreciated.

@Vix

Yeah, you might want to rethink the range you associate with the category. There IS a range, but in my experience snuff isn't part of it. Lots of story range on the reluctance side, and lots of stories are intrigues or romances or just make the consent very complicated.

One prolific writer in the category makes it just more porn-y. The resistance, where it happens, is played more for humor and just not taken seriously. The women keep saying "how dare you," and are generally outraged, but basically never resist beyond that.

Some people have to be careful when engaging with the category. I kind of do actually, because there are different subcategories in terms of motive and tone. Is the aggressor angry with a potent vendetta? Is he peeved because the new female supervisor chewed him out and he's made a deal with the building super to get revenge? Is he obsessive and infatuated or insulting and mean? Not all of them are going to be to the taste of all of the the category readers, obviously.


One of the most popular stories in the history of the category, Hunted by Furrybert, is pretty freaking rough. One of my favorite authors in the category was wishfulthinking, and she pretty much always went with wish fulfillment, dominant but adoring male leads. There's a huge range, but there are trackable common themes.



I read Sleeping Beauty when I first became interested in erotica. I'm definitely partly inspired by it in general, but I think my story has a lot of stylistic differences, though they both definitely qualify as non-con, my story is a bit more grim. War backdrop, and all that.

 

[Damoiselle]

@Simondoom

Gosh, thank you. That was more thorough than I could have hoped for. I'll work on not overusing "gaze."


@EoN

I'm delighted that my word choices could inspire, and even more thrilled that you think my sex scenes contribute so much. I think they're actually kind of scene I find second most challenging to write...apart from a gun fight, it turns out.

Ah, jagged. One of those words I love too much.

 

[AlinaX]

I enjoyed the first chapter. Feels like I'm reading an erotic romance novel, almost. The POV switching is fine, but unbalanced. It's mostly his POV and only glimpses of hers. We need her story too. We see that she's resistant, but we don't see a real struggle. It's Ch. 01 and already she's happily orgasmic from a non-consensual fuck?

Fwiw. I'm thoroughly biased, of course.

Also, five consecutive paras starting with 'He'. Watch out for that.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

@Simondoom

Gosh, thank you. That was more thorough than I could have hoped for. I'll work on not overusing "gaze."


@EoN

I'm delighted that my word choices could inspire, and even more thrilled that you think my sex scenes contribute so much. I think they're actually kind of scene I find second most challenging to write...apart from a gun fight, it turns out.

Ah, jagged. One of those words I love too much.

Sex scenes are the hardest ones for me, too. I got self-conscious about varying sentence structure within them and it really threw me. I'm still thrown, but recovering. Hopefully, it doesn't show too much in the end product, but my god does it take forever to write.

I'm afraid the people who read my stuff are too nice to tell me if the sex scenes sucked. Besides, they're too busy trying to get my characters to communicate and have a nice, healthy relationship of dubious consent. Your readers don't seem to be trying to get your pair into relationship counseling, but they seem absolutely gaga over Magnus.

 

[Damoiselle]

I enjoyed the first chapter. Feels like I'm reading an erotic romance novel, almost. The POV switching is fine, but unbalanced. It's mostly his POV and only glimpses of hers. We need her story too. We see that she's resistant, but we don't see a real struggle. It's Ch. 01 and already she's happily orgasmic from a non-consensual fuck?

Fwiw. I'm thoroughly biased, of course.

Also, five consecutive paras starting with 'He'. Watch out for that.

The thing that's funny is that sometimes I actually regret not making it MORE of a seduction under dubious circumstances and less of a force thing.

Ooph, five, that's rough. I'll remember to look out for that.

 

[Damoiselle]

Sex scenes are the hardest ones for me, too. I got self-conscious about varying sentence structure within them and it really threw me. I'm still thrown, but recovering. Hopefully, it doesn't show too much in the end product, but my god does it take forever to write.

I'm afraid the people who read my stuff are too nice to tell me if the sex scenes sucked. Besides, they're too busy trying to get my characters to communicate and have a nice, healthy relationship of dubious consent. Your readers don't seem to be trying to get your pair into relationship counseling, but they seem absolutely gaga over Magnus.

Yeah, that's an interesting phenomena. I think it has a bit to do with how their introduced in most of their scenes. Michael is like, a person. He internally considers his own ethics, expends brain power on them. He has regrets and worries and his goal is an emotional connection with her, and a kind of partnership.

Magnus is more like Darth Vader except that he's handsome and sexual. I treat him more like a force of nature than a character. He looms, he churns with feeling, but the feelings aren't quite so relatable.

I think your readers are leading with the instincts behind most Kylo Ren fan-fics. "I'm into this bad guy but I'm not a bad person so they can't really be a bad...Gasp, what if he's not bad at all but instead everyone who criticizes him is bad and actually the real fascist?" and then readers pick on that, or just prefer it and judge the fic where the text is like, "Yeah, so he's superbad, but also here's what I think having his penis inside you might be like," and then they're all pissy about it because they apparently think that the only reason anyone might ever be into a villainous characters is if those people just actually try to whitewash his villainy like they do.

I'm not bitter.

I get where you're readers are coming from, though, and I had to kind of consciously work against that giving mine that impression initially, had to convince them that he doesn't have the good intent they've seen in Michael, and it was kind of a rocky start there. After I delivered his "I don't care," line in ch. 02, at least one of the commenters actually had me worried for them, they seemed so angry about that response, but I couldn't tell if they were seething just at the character of Magnus in a love-to-hate way, or if they were seething at me for writing such an explicitly cruel reprobate and expecting them to be attracted anyway. I think we've attracted slightly different groups--Some of the people who walked away from my story in disgust and still want to coax yours into a shape that pleases them.

And again, I don't really judge them for the initial impulse. That's their cup of tea and not mine and that's fine and good. I do kind of wonder how they might react if they didn't take Michael's good intentions for granted, though. What if an outside source kind of cast some doubt on whether his manipulation runs deeper than it seems. It wouldn't necessarily have to be true, it would just have to evoke an alertness in the readers about him. A steamy, soap-opera fascination that's just morbid enough to give them the idea that maybe they can't count on him being unsurprising and delivering just a hint of horror film suspense amidst the steam.

I'm not saying it's a thing you should do with your story, of course, you know where Michael needs to go and how to get there. I just wonder.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Yeah, that's an interesting phenomena. I think it has a bit to do with how their introduced in most of their scenes. Michael is like, a person. He internally considers his own ethics, expends brain power on them. He has regrets and worries and his goal is an emotional connection with her, and a kind of partnership.

Magnus is more like Darth Vader except that he's handsome and sexual. I treat him more like a force of nature than a character. He looms, he churns with feeling, but the feelings aren't quite so relatable.

I think your readers are leading with the instincts behind most Kylo Ren fan-fics. "I'm into this bad guy but I'm not a bad person so they can't really be a bad...Gasp, what if he's not bad at all but instead everyone who criticizes him is bad and actually the real fascist?" and then readers pick on that, or just prefer it and judge the fic where the text is like, "Yeah, so he's superbad, but also here's what I think having his penis inside you might be like," and then they're all pissy about it because they apparently think that the only reason anyone might ever be into a villainous characters is if those people just actually try to whitewash his villainy like they do.

I'm not bitter.

I get where you're readers are coming from, though, and I had to kind of consciously work against that giving mine that impression initially, had to convince them that he doesn't have the good intent they've seen in Michael, and it was kind of a rocky start there. After I delivered his "I don't care," line in ch. 02, at least one of the commenters actually had me worried for them, they seemed so angry about that response, but I couldn't tell if they were seething just at the character of Magnus in a love-to-hate way, or if they were seething at me for writing such an explicitly cruel reprobate and expecting them to be attracted anyway. I think we've attracted slightly different groups--Some of the people who walked away from my story in disgust and still want to coax yours into a shape that pleases them.

And again, I don't really judge them for the initial impulse. That's their cup of tea and not mine and that's fine and good. I do kind of wonder how they might react if they didn't take Michael's good intentions for granted, though. What if an outside source kind of cast some doubt on whether his manipulation runs deeper than it seems. It wouldn't necessarily have to be true, it would just have to evoke an alertness in the readers about him. A steamy, soap-opera fascination that's just morbid enough to give them the idea that maybe they can't count on him being unsurprising and delivering just a hint of horror film suspense amidst the steam.

I'm not saying it's a thing you should do with your story, of course, you know where Michael needs to go and how to get there. I just wonder.

You're right - Magnus is Darth Vedar! That's exactly the vibe you conveyed. (That still makes him more likable than Kylo-Ren, in my book.) You've got readers absolutely drooling over him, though. I read the comments and I'm thinking, "But you guys saw what he did, right?" And the "I don't care" line! How does a villain get a fan club after that? But Magnus would probably have people throwing panties at him. No matter which way you look at it, the character really works since it gets such a response.

I'm much more interested in what Lilah's going to do, though. I was surprised there aren't more comments about her. She's a very strong, resourceful and motivated character, and after she strategically killed her commander, I would have thought people would be wondering more about her potential. I'm trying to figure out Saphir more, too. That is, I'm trying to figure him out when I'm not more interested in running him through a giant cheese grater.

That's a very intriguing idea about Michael. I'd actually thought of something similar, except about Mariah. It's hard to have Michael pull off any intrigue without Mariah figuring it out. I keep expecting someone to ask me why she didn't just take over the compound and be done with him. When the story gets
a little further into the Elites, I think there will be room for more skepticism about Michael's character, provided readers are willing to consider it.

I'm afraid my romantically disposed readers are in for a nasty shock with Michael in about two or three chapters. He will be atrocious. Not Magnus-level atrocious, but a level of atrociousness that still warrants having his teeth kicked out. He doesn't get his teeth kicked out, but his head of security does deck him for it. I am equally dreading and eager to see what readers think of the ?happy? couple after that.

Of course, I have to write a bunch of stuff before I get to find out.

 

[Damoiselle]

You're right - Magnus is Darth Vedar! That's exactly the vibe you conveyed. (That still makes him more likable than Kylo-Ren, in my book.) You've got readers absolutely drooling over him, though. I read the comments and I'm thinking, "But you guys saw what he did, right?" And the "I don't care" line! How does a villain get a fan club after that? But Magnus would probably have people throwing panties at him. No matter which way you look at it, the character really works since it gets such a response.

I'm much more interested in what Lilah's going to do, though. I was surprised there aren't more comments about her. She's a very strong, resourceful and motivated character, and after she strategically killed her commander, I would have thought people would be wondering more about her potential. I'm trying to figure out Saphir more, too. That is, I'm trying to figure him out when I'm not more interested in running him through a giant cheese grater.

That's a very intriguing idea about Michael. I'd actually thought of something similar, except about Mariah. It's hard to have Michael pull off any intrigue without Mariah figuring it out. I keep expecting someone to ask me why she didn't just take over the compound and be done with him. When the story gets
a little further into the Elites, I think there will be room for more skepticism about Michael's character, provided readers are willing to consider it.

I'm afraid my romantically disposed readers are in for a nasty shock with Michael in about two or three chapters. He will be atrocious. Not Magnus-level atrocious, but a level of atrociousness that still warrants having his teeth kicked out. He doesn't get his teeth kicked out, but his head of security does deck him for it. I am equally dreading and eager to see what readers think of the ?happy? couple after that.

You know how I imagine it sometimes? Like if a snake fell in love with a bird. I know it's a silly thought, but it's kind of like...Imagine being a snake. Like a really smart snake. And you love this bird, and you know that not only would every other snake try to devour this bird, but so would every other type of predator. So you want to protect this bird, but it's also a freaking bird and it keeps trying to fly away from you where you know there are other things that could hurt it. Do you try to hurt the bird's wings just enough to keep it close, and if so...how much?

That's what I try to convey as Magnus' perspective, and I think that's why so many readers can become invested in that when they're much harder on you with Michael. They both promise security and advantage that you don't have to feel guilty for accepting, because you didn't have much of a choice. But while Magnus embraces a meanest serpent in the garden image, Michael seems (to me so far) to be more like an eagle that was trapped underground, and hasn't had the chance to stretch his power yet.


I'm silly, I know, and a little overly into animal metaphors. I'm actually surprised no one has called me on that about Imperius. Whenever I re-read a chapter later on I go, "Huh, I wonder if I should have paused and thought, 'maybe I've compared these characters to various animals enough by now.'"

Of course, I have to write a bunch of stuff before I get to find out.

It's so obnoxious that to actually tell stories we have to write them.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

You know how I imagine it sometimes? Like if a snake fell in love with a bird. I know it's a silly thought, but it's kind of like...Imagine being a snake. Like a really smart snake. And you love this bird, and you know that not only would everything other snake try to devour this bird, but so would every other type of predator. So you want to protect this bird, but it's also a freaking bird and it keeps trying to fly away from you where you know there are other things that could hurt it. Do you try to hurt the bird's wings just enough to keep it close, and if so...how much?

That's an excellent metaphor. I will even forgive you for reminding me of the apocryphal story about Stalin and the bird. Not the one with the chicken, which is also horrible, but the one where he took a small bird in his hand, plucked out its feathers, and then opened his hand to show the bird lying shivering and helpless in his hand, and said, "Now he is grateful for the warmth of my hand." That haunts me.

It's so obnoxious that to actually tell stories we have to write them.

Right?

 

[ElectricBlue]

That's an excellent metaphor. I will even forgive you for reminding me of the apocryphal story about Stalin and the bird. Not the one with the chicken, which is also horrible, but the one where he took a small bird in his hand, plucked out its feathers, and then opened his hand to show the bird lying shivering and helpless in his hand, and said, "Now he is grateful for the warmth of my hand." That haunts me.

I've not read the story being discussed, but the thread itself is interesting; and I too thought Damoiselle's parable was superb. That short paragraph is a complete story in itself.

I'd forgotten about the Stalin anecdote. It's a powerful image.

 

[Damoiselle]

That's an excellent metaphor. I will even forgive you for reminding me of the apocryphal story about Stalin and the bird. Not the one with the chicken, which is also horrible, but the one where he took a small bird in his hand, plucked out its feathers, and then opened his hand to show the bird lying shivering and helpless in his hand, and said, "Now he is grateful for the warmth of my hand." That haunts me.



Right?

Oh, god. I'd never heard that story, but you're right...it's unpleasantly similar. Eek.

 

[SisterJezabel]

What are the characteristics of a non-con story, and what makes this a non-con story?

I think there's non-con and then there's reluctance. I've worked with survivors of sexual assault and none of them have ever mentioned being aroused by the situation or getting close to achieving an orgasm!

Someone has already mentioned the prolific writer who hails from the same country as me who always stumbles across women and uses ill logic and words to convince the women they want to give up their virginity and then ends the stories with them suspecting they will want to run into the perp again! If you read many of his stories you will see that he makes a point of the women never saying no specifically, yet most don't agree to the sexual encounter. I suspect a lawyer in a courtroom would have a field day with his protagonists on the witness stand! But most of these stories, albeit someone formulaic, are popular.

I think the majority of stories in the non-con field are fantasy stories and whereas Hallmark has a genre where you know it would probably never happen like that in real life and I will admit 99% of my stories have this fantasy element too.

Non-con is a broad spectrum- some might argue that a man waking up to a woman sucking his cock is non-con as she has not sought his permission, despite having spent the night/week/month/last 50 years with the person. then you have the often used wife needs to sleep with hubby's boss for hubby to keep job. This hasn't happened to any of my girlfriends, but that's not to say it doesn't happen, but not as widely as the page might suggest.

I am yet to read the story that started this thread (I'm off to do that now!) but it sounds as though it is a good example of what a good non-con is.

 

[Vix_Giovanni]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses, ladies, they all give me things to consider. These concerns about avoiding triggers are the same that I have, and SisterJezabel is spot-on—I’m sensitive about the real-world experiences of survivors and it’s an exact source of my uncertainty and discomfort as an editor.

My choices as an editor are somewhat different than as a writer or reader. I like writing plausible sex fantasies, but I’m not okay with letting fantasy become a vacuum; I’ve written sex scenes highlighting the uncomfortable gray areas of non-consent between spouses, and because I write a lot of I/T romance, my stories have subplots of realistic, uncomfortable incest crime. The reluctant sex in ch. 07 of Imperius has some overlap with the reluctant sex in the latest chapter of my own long-form I/T romance.

On the other hand, as a volunteer editor, the stories I edit aren’t my own, and I don’t feel comfortable telling another writer what s/he should/not include for sensitivity and moralistic reasons if it’s not part of the writer’s own vision. Not to say that I haven’t encountered the very same issues with stories in other categories—I’ve edited a couple of stories where the basic premise worried me that the story could be an unanticipated trigger to some readers! If I were just a reader, I’d just go find something else to read; but I don’t feel that I have that luxury once I’ve committed to helping someone edit their work. And usually, I’m working with new writers who do not have any existing works on the site, so I’m going in blind solely based on a story abstract. For those reasons, I’ve avoided assisting writers with non-con stories, and am very reluctant with certain genres like I/T.

I’d be comfortable with and interested in editing for writers creating the type of non-con works Damoiselle has created, especially now that I know this is a robust sub-category of the genre. Hopefully, I’ll find a way to attract such writers while sifting out/politely turning down others whose stories lack consent solely for prurient reasons.

Again, many thanks for this discussion and your insights.

I think the easiest answer is that the category isn't what you may believe it is. The full title of the category is Non-Consent/Reluctance. I think the vast majority of the stories there lean toward reluctance. I'm not trying to speak for Damoiselle's reasons for putting it there, but the rationale I generally apply is that if there's an element that's anywhere along the edges of lacking full consent, it should go in noncon so that someone who is sensitive to such issues isn't confronted with it. Nobody wants someone who's experienced one of the fuzzier versions of date rape to accidentally happen across a story where one character pressures another into sex. A common feature of many stories in the category is that the "victim" has a literal choice, but no realistic choice. Is that real consent? Legally, maybe, depending on the circumstances. But ethically? No. There's necessarily a disparity in the power dynamic that makes consent dubious. (Maybe think of it as a conscionabiity analysis.)

I think one of the interesting things about the non-con category is that real rape is generally accepted not to be about sex. In the non-con category, it's definitely about the sex, and the psychology that drives it. That doesn't mean there aren't some sick little twerps writing stories that are artless violence and degradation, but those don't generally crawl high enough up the ratings to be seen unless people just look at random stories. Most of the authors in the category are women. I'm pretty sure most of the readers are, too.

The appeal is all in the psychology. I don't think it's going to be easy to understand why a story like Imperius is in the non-con category if you look at it within a legal or quasi-legal framework. I think you would have to read some of the stories in the category and see feelings and motivations they are exploring. There's a commonality to them that I think would lead you to see why they are in the same category, even if you may disagree with the designation of the category.

Certainly, many of these could go in romance, but out of sensitivity to the many people who don't need to be reminded of traumatic life experiences, I think it's best that they don't.

Thanks for the feedback, it's very appreciated.

@Vix

Yeah, you might want to rethink the range you associate with the category. There IS a range, but in my experience snuff isn't part of it. Lots of story range on the reluctance side, and lots of stories are intrigues or romances or just make the consent very complicated.

One prolific writer in the category makes it just more porn-y. The resistance, where it happens, is played more for humor and just not taken seriously. The women keep saying "how dare you," and are generally outraged, but basically never resist beyond that.

Some people have to be careful when engaging with the category. I kind of do actually, because there are different subcategories in terms of motive and tone. Is the aggressor angry with a potent vendetta? Is he peeved because the new female supervisor chewed him out and he's made a deal with the building super to get revenge? Is he obsessive and infatuated or insulting and mean? Not all of them are going to be to the taste of all of the the category readers, obviously.


One of the most popular stories in the history of the category, Hunted by Furrybert, is pretty freaking rough. One of my favorite authors in the category was wishfulthinking, and she pretty much always went with wish fulfillment, dominant but adoring male leads. There's a huge range, but there are trackable common themes.



I read Sleeping Beauty when I first became interested in erotica. I'm definitely partly inspired by it in general, but I think my story has a lot of stylistic differences, though they both definitely qualify as non-con, my story is a bit more grim. War backdrop, and all that.

I think there's non-con and then there's reluctance. I've worked with survivors of sexual assault and none of them have ever mentioned being aroused by the situation or getting close to achieving an orgasm!

Someone has already mentioned the prolific writer who hails from the same country as me who always stumbles across women and uses ill logic and words to convince the women they want to give up their virginity and then ends the stories with them suspecting they will want to run into the perp again! If you read many of his stories you will see that he makes a point of the women never saying no specifically, yet most don't agree to the sexual encounter. I suspect a lawyer in a courtroom would have a field day with his protagonists on the witness stand! But most of these stories, albeit someone formulaic, are popular.

I think the majority of stories in the non-con field are fantasy stories and whereas Hallmark has a genre where you know it would probably never happen like that in real life and I will admit 99% of my stories have this fantasy element too.

Non-con is a broad spectrum- some might argue that a man waking up to a woman sucking his cock is non-con as she has not sought his permission, despite having spent the night/week/month/last 50 years with the person. then you have the often used wife needs to sleep with hubby's boss for hubby to keep job. This hasn't happened to any of my girlfriends, but that's not to say it doesn't happen, but not as widely as the page might suggest.

I am yet to read the story that started this thread (I'm off to do that now!) but it sounds as though it is a good example of what a good non-con is.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

...I’d be comfortable with and interested in editing for writers creating the type of non-con works Damoiselle has created, especially now that I know this is a robust sub-category of the genre. Hopefully, I’ll find a way to attract such writers while sifting out/politely turning down others whose stories lack consent solely for prurient reasons...

Assuming you list the categories you will/will not edit, it might work to simply state that you will edit reluctance but not rape stories. Stating it in terms of "rape" instead of "non-consent" will go a long way to sorting the author's intentions, especially with the more amorphous areas like dubious consent. I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect that new writers of non-con are experienced readers of it and will understand the distinction. If a writer sends you a rape story in the belief that it's reluctance, a wake-up call for the writer is probably in order anyway.

Just an idea.