Keep your eye on Sweden

[Liar]

It is spread more or less the same way, so that would make sense.

Yeah. only thing I've heard is that covid seems to have a higher risk of transferred contact spread, meaning it can live unusually long on surfaces compared to most viruses, and also that it can have a long incubation period with asymptomatic and obvlivious spreaders.

The first of those things seems to have penetrated into the skulls of my fellow Swedes, cause everyone is obsessive about hand washing and sanitizer. But at the same time, everyone seems 100% certain they don't have it, so they don't worry enough about passing it on. Hence, almost nobody in a face mask.

I tihnk the government should do some key things that would be immediately visual for people, like order table service at restaurants closed, further limit gatherings, provide and mandate face masks for key essential workers et al. Just to jolt that complacency out of some people and make them realize that yo, this is not business as usual.

 

[DeluxAuto]

When did the schools cease teaching kids how to diagram a sentence? It used to be 4th grade English.

You should ask your signature line.

 

[SpeareChucker]

I think that government deciding to close down the economy
is our ruling class telling us that when properly informed with
valid information, we will not, or ourselves, make right choices
so it is incumbent upon them to treat us as she sort of stupid
(and since we voted for them, they may have somewhat of a point).

Since none of these quarantine orders have any teeth, like so
many laws to protect us from ourselves, the same subset of
people who were never going to change their habits/lifestyle
are still not changing much of anything other than implementation.

 

[bellisarius]

Yeah. only thing I've heard is that covid seems to have a higher risk of transferred contact spread, meaning it can live unusually long on surfaces compared to most viruses, and also that it can have a long incubation period with asymptomatic and obvlivious spreaders.

The first of those things seems to have penetrated into the skulls of my fellow Swedes, cause everyone is obsessive about hand washing and sanitizer. But at the same time, everyone seems 100% certain they don't have it, so they don't worry enough about passing it on. Hence, almost nobody in a face mask.

I tihnk the government should do some key things that would be immediately visual for people, like order table service at restaurants closed, further limit gatherings, provide and mandate face masks for key essential workers et al. Just to jolt that complacency out of some people and make them realize that yo, this is not business as usual.

Your nation is embarked on a grand experiment the results of which won't be known for some time to come.

My thoughts on the subject of extreme measures is mixed at best. The medico's are trying to achieve two things. The first is to flatten the curve so that the services are overwhelmed. The second is, of course, prevention. The goal of the first effort is essentially self serving for the medical community. Yes, there are some benefits to the population as a whole, but it is the medical community that reaps the greatest rewards. As far as the second is concerned, this thing isn't going to go away until an effective vaccine is available which means that by flattening the curve you are achieving nothing more than to stretch the period of infection out. Recurrence is almost certain and, like the Spanish Flu, might be even more deadly in that everyone will have let their guard down. Letting it run its natural course may be the most effective way of dealing with the disease. I am not advocating that policy, there is just way too many unknowns at this point in time and we'll only be able to evaluate the various responses after the fact.

 

[Liar]

Fun fact, a total lockdown, stay-at-home order or curfew the likes we see in some countries can not be issued in Sweden. It would violate liberty clauses in the constitution.

They could do a whole bit more than they are. Shut down non-essential businesses, impose harder rules in public transport, and so on. But you'll probably never see cops in the streets fining you for frivolous walking-about or something like that.

 

[Conager]

Yeah. only thing I've heard is that covid seems to have a higher risk of transferred contact spread, meaning it can live unusually long on surfaces compared to most viruses, and also that it can have a long incubation period with asymptomatic and obvlivious spreaders.

The first of those things seems to have penetrated into the skulls of my fellow Swedes, cause everyone is obsessive about hand washing and sanitizer. But at the same time, everyone seems 100% certain they don't have it, so they don't worry enough about passing it on. Hence, almost nobody in a face mask.

I tihnk the government should do some key things that would be immediately visual for people, like order table service at restaurants closed, further limit gatherings, provide and mandate face masks for key essential workers et al. Just to jolt that complacency out of some people and make them realize that yo, this is not business as usual.

There's no question that this particular one is persistent on surfaces the question is though the methodology for infection. For example it's been found in fecal matter but they've just about ruled that out as a likely ansmission route. The thing does stay on surfaces but it has to somehow get from the surface into the bottom of your lungs in order to really debilitate you. I mean I wouldn't go licking any door knobs, but the only study that showed that casual contact after the fact might be causing it was at a mall in China but they had no idea whether hey were dealing with that or aasymptomatic or pre-symptomatic people. The only time that we know for sure that we get lots and lots of infections is when someone who is quite infected is breathing on other people so it seems to be airborne which is kind of more dangerous to healthcare workers cuz they have to deal with breathing patience.

 

[SpeareChucker]

Fun fact, a total lockdown, stay-at-home order or curfew the likes we see in some countries can not be issued in Sweden. It would violate liberty clauses in the constitution.

They could do a whole bit more than they are. Shut down non-essential businesses, impose harder rules in public transport, and so on. But you'll probably never see cops in the streets fining you for frivolous walking-about or something like that.

I think it violates ours as well (admittedly, no Constitutional scholar here),
but those who feel they know better than the deplorables and those who
feel born to lead (by virtue of dedicating their ives to the ballot) don't
really like a charter of negative liberties, they prefer an ethos that
allows them to do good works unfettered by legal constraint...

 

[Liar]

My thoughts on the subject of extreme measures is mixed at best. The medico's are trying to achieve two things. The first is to flatten the curve so that the services are overwhelmed. The second is, of course, prevention. The goal of the first effort is essentially self serving for the medical community. Yes, there are some benefits to the population as a whole, but it is the medical community that reaps the greatest rewards.

Weeeelll, the reward for the citizens in that case would be that there's room at the ICU for if and when the bug hits you.

Or some other bug. Or a stroke. Or a bullet. Or whatever.

 

[Conager]

Fun fact, a total lockdown, stay-at-home order or curfew the likes we see in some countries can not be issued in Sweden. It would violate liberty clauses in the constitution.

They could do a whole bit more than they are. Shut down non-essential businesses, impose harder rules in public transport, and so on. But you'll probably never see cops in the streets fining you for frivolous walking-about or something like that.

Short of actually declaring martial law (for which the pretext would be tenuous here) it's illegal in the US as well. You could quarantine the sick in the interest of the public good but quaranting people who are not sick has no constitutional basis whatsoever. You could quarantine people like fruits and vegetables for only the expected incubation period but beyond that, what is the rationale?

 

[SpeareChucker]

Short of actually declaring martial law (for which the pretext would be tenuous here) it's illegal in the US as well. You could quarantine the sick in the interest of the public good but quaranting people who are not sick has no constitutional basis whatsoever. You could quarantine people like fruits and vegetables for only the expected incubation period but beyond that, what is the rationale?

Whatever it takes to establish the maxim that personal liberty
relies solely on the largess of men and not law.

That's the way Progressivism rolls...

 

[Liar]

I think it violates ours as well (admittedly, no Constitutional scholar here),
but those who feel they know better than the deplorables and those who
feel born to lead (by virtue of dedicating their ives to the ballot) don't
really like a charter of negative liberties, they prefer an ethos that
allows them to do good works unfettered by legal constraint...

And yet, this is supposedly the quintessential stereotype for the cradle-to-grave nanny state. And now our usually overbearing do-gooders are holding back. Yeah I dunno.

 

[Liar]

Short of actually declaring martial law (for which the pretext would be tenuous here) it's illegal in the US as well. You could quarantine the sick in the interest of the public good but quaranting people who are not sick has no constitutional basis whatsoever. You could quarantine people like fruits and vegetables for only the expected incubation period but beyond that, what is the rationale?

So what are the stay-at-home orders that loads of US states have issued? Do they come attached with an implied "please" at the end?

 

[DeluxAuto]

this flatten the curve BS is BS

by LOCKING everyone down teh curve flattens....but a total lockdown cant last for months and months or we are all dead

what happens when we stray outside, the curve BOOMS

so whats the point?

open it all up, whoever dies, dies.....lets get going

NOW!

prolonging it all is bad for all

One death is a tragedy

10 million deaths are a statistic!


to quote the LIBZ/PROGZ favorite person

A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.

attributed to the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin

We are all dead! Dead, I tell you!

 

[SpeareChucker]

So what are the stay-at-home orders that loads of US states have issued? Do they come attached with an implied "please" at the end?

Pretty much.
The police aren't really being proactive.
I don't think they want to come in contact with people
unless events paint them into a corner and they have to deal with actual criminality.

 

[Conager]

So what are the stay-at-home orders that loads of US states have issued? Do they come attached with an implied "please" at the end?

They are unenforceable, like all unconstitutional laws.

For a charge like this to stick they're going to have to prove that I am some kind of a public menace to society. How are they going to do that without testing me for the virus? If I don't have it then how my risking anyone else? I'm only risking that I might become infected. If they test me snd find that I have antibodies showing that I've had it and I'm no longer infectious I am (probably) not capable of getting infected then how do they justify that? The whole thing is just circular reasoning, with no starting point unless you get out there and test the populous.

I'm not a big fan of what the police powers we have ceded to the state to run businesses in such but you're business license can pretty much be suspended capriciously and you'd have to sue and show selective enforcement to win. The Goldwater Institute had s legal division that has been taking on licensing laws on behalf.of military spouses. This is a rather s o Tarek rabbit hole but they're with me. Essentially when you go from one state to another with your military spouse all the sudden you can't practice your profession unless the states have reciprocity. Most states have laws that say that the state can grant concessions to military spouse is but of course anytime mistake and do something they of course don't get around to doing it. What you want our laws that say shall rather than can. They're trying to win these small battles because it's for a very good cause but the end game is the point out the we don't need a thousand different professional licenses. No one should have to beg the state for permission to go out and they're in the living.

We put up with a lot of unconstitutional lot in the United States. We have very little of the freedom that we brag about. You can't do anything without bureaucratic functionary telling you you can or can't do it.

Hell, in my cowboy'd up gin-slingin' State there is less land in private hands then there was proportionally in the Ukraine under the Soviet Union.

 

[Liar]

They are unenforceable, like all unconstitutional laws.

For a charge like this to stick they're going to have to prove that I am some kind of a public menace to society. How are they going to do that without testing me for the virus? If I don't have it then how my risking anyone else? I'm only risking that I might become infected. If they test me snd find that I have antibodies showing that I've had it and I'm no longer infectious I am (probably) not capable of getting infected then how do they justify that? The whole thing is just circular reasoning, with no starting point unless you get out there and test the populous.

I mean, the argument could be made that your ignorance of whether you are a carrier or not could make you said public menace.

But it's a stretch that I don't know what a court would say about. You'd be asking the individual to prove a negative.

 

[Conager]

I mean, the argument could be made that your ignorance of whether you are a carrier or not could make you said public menace.

But it's a stretch that I don't know what a court would say about. You'd be asking the individual to prove a negative.

Exactly. If *you* think I'm a menace because I am a potential (but not certain) host then *you* provide me with a test.

Keep in mind our chief Justice appointed by an ostensibly conservative president ruled healthy people must pay corporations money for insurance because they *might* be a burden on society *if* they get sick in the future.

The laugh about that is the law says no fenials for pre existing conditions so you can just simply wait until you need some insurance then go buy it. What could possibly go wrong with that?

 

[SpeareChucker]

Yes, we are doing a poor job of preventing rule of law (Republic)
from devolving into the rue of man (Democracy/the mob).

And it's funny that those who find republican rule anathema
are pretty much those advocating for stronger, central government
with the omniscient self-assurance that they will be in control of it...

They never are, which is why the strong man eventually emerges.
Those who get what they wish for, eventually want order restored.

 

[Liar]

Exactly. If *you* think I'm a menace because I am a potential (but not certain) host then *you* provide me with a test.

A test for what though? If you have the virus on you but not in you, you can still spread it. Which is why you're nagged to wash your fookin hands before you pick your nose.

There's no test for that afaik.

 

[DeYaKen]

Please stop with the "hoax" bullshit, that NEVER happened. Damn.

That's strange we all saw him saying it on the TV.

 

[bellisarius]

That's strange we all saw him saying it on the TV.

You're drugs may have seen him but no one of sane mind did.

 

[Conager]

That's strange we all saw him saying it on the TV.

Oh, look. Another one without a basic ability to follow a theme.

You obviously don't "ken."

 

[zipman]

Please stop with the "hoax" bullshit, that NEVER happened. Damn.

Just like the playbook Ish?

You're just a lying chickenshit moron.

 

[SpeareChucker]

That's strange we all saw him saying it on the TV.

No, you have convinced yourself that that is what you thought you saw.
There is no way that you can read the transcript and come
away with that conclusion unless you detest Trump
well beyond reason and comprehension...

 

[bellisarius]

No, you have convinced yourself that that is what you thought you saw.
There is no way that you can read the transcript and come
away with that conclusion unless you detest Trump
well beyond reason and comprehension...

I think that adequately describes its mental acuity.