Which Category

[rutger5]

Yup, another category question. I admit I’m not a huge fan of the way Lit is set up with hard categories; especially the way it mixes genres with let’s call them kinks, proclivities, or activities. Horror, romance, sci-fi, and fantasy are genres so they make sense. Anal is not a genre, neither is incest but the system is what it is and I’m not calling for changing it and it wouldn’t matter if I was.

Still when a story is set in a genre that is also a category does it always make sense to place it there? I understand about trump categories, though even there it doesn’t have to be cut and dried. I can see putting a story in gay male to prevent trashing of the story even though there are times it really should be placed in another category because no one wants to have their story suffer due to narrow minded types. I have a story in TV/TS/CD category that contains non con so I put a warning at the beginning. Yes, I hope to be writing for adults but things are what they are. I believe people greatly overuse terms like triggered but some people do get offended and that isn’t my goal. At another site I wrote a non con story for an internet friend with appropriate tags and warnings and still someone left a comment stating I should be tortured for writing it. You can’t argue with logic like that.

In this case I’m more asking if a story is set in a fantasy or sci-fi setting should it always go there or does it sometimes make sense to try to appeal to the kink. Here is a fake example that occurred to me and I’m using to illustrate what I mean. Say a story is set in a generic D&D type world. Protagonist is a hafling that enjoys voyeurism. He is small, quiet, and unobtrusive so is pretty successful in his kink. While getting his jollies some night he also witnesses something unexpected that leads to some kind of plot hook for an adventure or quest. Now if for the most part it was the quest that drove the story I’d say put it in fantasy and the voyeur aspect would be a side note. But what if the quest is just a plot device to allow him to witness numerous sexual acts? Would the voyeurism outweigh the fantasy elements of the story? Also I’ve heard here that sci-fi/fantasy readers are pretty open minded but still do they really want more standard plot and to downplay sex? Conversely are people into various kink categories open to voyeurism in fantasy or bdsm in horror or do they prefer their kinks in a more realistic setting? I know there isn’t one typical Lit reader but I’m wondering from people who write or read in such categories what their take is on this. Of course this is an open forum so any are welcome to put their two cents in.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's a good question. I've wondered this myself. My general impression is that if a story is in a fantasy/sci fi setting, that's where it should go even if it emphasizes one or more kinks.

I published an Anal story that was in an offbeat, fantasy setting. I published it in Anal rather than Sci Fi/Fantasy because despite its setting the erotic focus was on anal sex. It's done OK score-wise, but its views are far below those of many other anal stories. I suspect that's in part because the fantasy setting is not what Anal readers are looking for.

I think what others have said is correct: the sci fi/fantasy crowd is very open-minded about kinks and fetishes as long as you have done a sufficient job tending to the fantasy/sci fi elements.

I think sci fi/fantasy readers also are receptive to multi-chapter series, so it sounds to me like the D&D/pervy halfling story would be well-suited for the sci fi/fantasy category.

Sounds like a cool story! I'm still working on a LOTR Fan Fic story that involves Frodo and Sam getting it on in with an elf-maiden in an erotic episode that was left out of the Official Story.

 

[gordo12]

You're up against two things.

How will the readers react?

Will Laurel accept the story in that category?

I've used regular characters and thrown in a tinge of Sci Fi and it went over OK. (Transplant) Some said Sci Fi and one said Erotic Horror. It was in LW.

In another I started it with a dog. It went over very well something like 54/55 comments that it was hilarious or one of the best stories ever. One said I had no sense of humour. But I did get rumblings that some readers had gone huh? (over the dog) and clicked it off. Too unexpected for them. Again in LW.

But starting with fantasy creatures that go on quests??? It seems to me that the only people that would accept that are the SF Fantasy crowd. They're used to stuff like that. I think that is too far out to go in exhibitionism or voyeur.

I've seen stories posted in LW that have delved into SF (say aliens) and it hasn't gone well. Then again it is LW and they do love their secret comment/voting powers.

Laurel is of course Laurel. Things do slip through but I've found that putting good explanation notes in the box for her when submitting helps smooth out any issues, rather than having it booted back.

 

[Voboy]

My feeling, completely unsupported by any kind of analysis, is that the more rabid SF readers aren’t really into hardcore kink, and are less into sex in general. I feel SF would get your story very low readership.

OTOH, will your hardcore kinksters really want to read about hobbits?

My thought is that you’re right: this is something of a catch-22. I’d signpost it CLEARLY with your tags, description, and perhaps a disclaimer; you owe the readers information on which to make their choices. But prep yourself for low readership, low votes, or both.

 

[UsuallyPresent]

-snip-
I'm still working on a LOTR Fan Fic story that involves Frodo and Sam getting it on in with an elf-maiden in an erotic episode that was left out of the Official Story.

ROFL! I love it - the implicit-but-unwritten Orc/Uruk/Hobbit noncon scene up at the top of Cirith Ungol needs to be written, too.... Let's not forget Tom Bombadil vs everything or Ent/Hobbit/Hobbit slashfic! The nine semimaterial gay ringwraiths probably get some lovin' in too - boredom and immortality might well lead to all sorts of interesting things!

Ahem. Sorry - back to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Voboy]

Old Man Willow. What was he doing to the three hobbits in there? Was he getting off on Frodo beating him with a stick? Why was Bombadil so easily able to dom him?

Treesex FTW.

 

[Liethra]

I've got pretty limited experience, but most of my stuff is in Sci-fi/Fantasy. It feels like you're kind of going to run up against the same problem no matter what you do - many of the sections are specific kinks, whereas the SF section is a general genre. The two don't really compare fully.

So you're either going to have fantasy fans that aren't into particular kinks, or kinksters who are bored by the fantasy stuff. Personally, I'd say stick it in SF, and gather readers as you go. At least then you'll have the freedom to vary the kinks in your story more than if you did the things other way around.

I don't really think that SF readers in general are just in it for the story. Probably there are some that want the fantasy more than the erotica, but I think it's more that fantasy readers are more ready to fall in love with settings and characters. But I do agree that you need to be very transparent what kind of erotic material your story goes into through tags and descriptions.

For context: I write stories that are -very- niche kink-wise, so that comes at a price. I could put them in the Trans section instead, but really, it feels like it's better suited for SF, even though I don't go full lore-bomb. Hope any of this helps!

 

[ElectricBlue]

I've got pretty limited experience, but most of my stuff is in Sci-fi/Fantasy. It feels like you're kind of going to run up against the same problem no matter what you do - many of the sections are specific kinks, whereas the SF section is a general genre. The two don't really compare fully.

So you're either going to have fantasy fans that aren't into particular kinks, or kinksters who are bored by the fantasy stuff. Personally, I'd say stick it in SF, and gather readers as you go. At least then you'll have the freedom to vary the kinks in your story more than if you did the things other way around.

I don't really think that SF readers in general are just in it for the story. Probably there are some that want the fantasy more than the erotica, but I think it's more that fantasy readers are more ready to fall in love with settings and characters. But I do agree that you need to be very transparent what kind of erotic material your story goes into through tags and descriptions.

For context: I write stories that are -very- niche kink-wise, so that comes at a price. I could put them in the Trans section instead, but really, it feels like it's better suited for SF, even though I don't go full lore-bomb. Hope any of this helps!

I agree with this advice, - especially where the kink is subordinate to the story. But where a kink might be considered extreme (OP will have to be the judge of that) - or is by far the primary point of the story - I'd be asking what Simon does, what does the fantasy element add? Why is it there? And why is the "extreme" kink there?

The Category Police are in every category, so you need to balance your kinks with your story, I reckon - or be prepared for an adverse reaction and live with it.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Sounds like a cool story! I'm still working on a LOTR Fan Fic story that involves Frodo and Sam getting it on in with an elf-maiden in an erotic episode that was left out of the Official Story.

Suzie looked up. "Does this mean I have to wear fluffy slippers? I'm not tall enough to be a Tolkien elf maiden." She twirled, and oh my, she does looks good in green.

The problem you'll have with this story, Simon, is suspension of disbelief. Frodo and Sam with a woman? How are you ever going to convince us on that?

Carry on .

 

[SimonDoom]

With Sam it shouldn't be too hard. He's got a thing for Rosie Cotton, after all, and does end up marrying her. I admit it's a harder case with Frodo. No hint of female companionship, or any interest in one, and his attention seems rather focused instead on young male hobbit companions.

 

[ElectricBlue]

With Sam it shouldn't be too hard. He's got a thing for Rosie Cotton, after all, and does end up marrying her. I admit it's a harder case with Frodo. No hint of female companionship, or any interest in one, and his attention seems rather focused instead on young male hobbit companions.

Yes, Sam and Rosie, you got that covered. But Frodo is the T om C ruise of LOTR. But you're the man to do it, I have no doubt about that - just invent Frodo's mom and have her bring him tea. You'll be fine .

 

[RejectReality]

If you're set in an "other" world, whether that be swords and sorcery, starships, post-apocalyptic, or whatever, you're always going to get the least judgmental reception in one of the three fantasy categories: Sci-Fi & Fantasy, Non-Human, and Erotic Horror.

They're genre categories, and the readership is used to all sorts of kinks appearing in stories. By and large, they'll simply skip over anything that makes them cringe. They're also likely to heed content warnings, rather than use them as an excuse to leave a low vote and a nasty comment out of protest. Again, if the story is good enough, they'll simply skip the kink that gives them the creeps and get back to the story. No need to scare them off in chapter 1 if say chapter 6 is going to have a one-off GM scene. Just drop a note on Ch. 06.

While it's not universal, and there have been some genre stories that have done well in the traditional "kink" categories ( a long vampire incest epic in Incest, for example ) they generally don't perform well there. It's not what the readers are expecting, and will typically generate enough back-clicks to offset what would otherwise be a far larger readership than the genre categories can generate.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

Yup, another category question. I admit I’m not a huge fan of the way Lit is set up with hard categories; especially the way it mixes genres with let’s call them kinks, proclivities, or activities. Horror, romance, sci-fi, and fantasy are genres so they make sense. Anal is not a genre, neither is incest but the system is what it is and I’m not calling for changing it and it wouldn’t matter if I was.


.

I beg to differ... inceest, anal and such can be catagories. Can and do things overlap, sure. A all anal story might have other things in it than just anal and incest has step-whateber stories, personally through marriage is not incest. They are porn genres/catagories. You might think it doesn't matter, but even if a story has a theme, there has to be primary focus. You can have a transsexual sci-fi story; the setting might be some cyberpunk, and it will probably do best in Sci-fi. Then you can have a Sci-fi transsexual story, where a person makes a transgendered person or bio-android or something and it would be more suited for TS/CD.

 

[rutger5]

Thanks to all that replied. Like I feared it probably is a bit of a catch 22. People looking for a kink or fetish may not appreciate it in a more fantastical setting and back click or not open if the title gives info on the weird elements. Non human is a possibility because unlike sci-fi/fantasy I don't think most are expecting LOTR or Star Wars epics that go on forever with world building and never ending quests.

A few asides. The example I gave with the hafling (not Hobbit, which is copyrighted by Tolkien ) wasn't my actual story idea as I'm not a big fan of voyeurism stories. Just used as an example though I admit it could work well.

To Jax, though anal is a fine category for videos, in a literary sense it could never be considered a genre. Mysteries or historical fiction as well as romance and fantasy are literary genres which was what I was getting at whether they are G rated or triple X.

Simon I don't wish to rain on your parade so write your story. Parodies are generally protected and I've read Bored of the Rings. But to my mind what you propose is just as disrespectful as when someone wants to finish an "unfinished" story on Lit. Tolkien had a very specific worldview (Catholic) and it colored and informed his perspective. One doesn't have to agree with how he saw things but one can't deny he believed it. He wouldn't have approved of his characters being used in a sexual way, no matter what kind of sex was portrayed.
Also Sam was straight and if I remember correctly either Merry or Pippin got married too. Frodo was either just a confirmed bachelor or asexual .

 

[RejectReality]

Don't discount the readership in Sci-Fi & Fantasy when it comes to one-shots. I've got a story that did just fine set in Ancient Egypt with no magic, battles, or anything of that nature, and less than 6k words. The readership may appreciate epics, but they're hardly averse to reading something far less ambitious and dense. My first venture outside of my original, long story here was a one-shot about a King and Queen finding the time to be intimate. It blew up and had twice the votes of the chapters in my main story at the time.

That being said, if the main character isn't human, then Non-Human probably is the best place for it.

 

[SimonDoom]

Simon I don't wish to rain on your parade so write your story. Parodies are generally protected and I've read Bored of the Rings. But to my mind what you propose is just as disrespectful as when someone wants to finish an "unfinished" story on Lit. Tolkien had a very specific worldview (Catholic) and it colored and informed his perspective. One doesn't have to agree with how he saw things but one can't deny he believed it. He wouldn't have approved of his characters being used in a sexual way, no matter what kind of sex was portrayed.
Also Sam was straight and if I remember correctly either Merry or Pippin got married too. Frodo was either just a confirmed bachelor or asexual .

I appreciate your thoughts on the subject, although I think somewhat differently.

I take plagiarism and copyright infringement seriously, so I've wrestled with whether my story violates either of those doctrines. It's not plagiarism, because there's no question what the original source is. The question is whether it's copyright infringement. I think it's a close call. I think I come down on the side that it's so absurd and takes the story in such an obviously ridiculous and different direction, and that my view of the characters' sexual views and habits is so different from Tolkien's, that it would qualify as fair use/parody, but I'm not 100% certain. I've waffled on whether to finish it and publish it. I probably will, but I'm not certain.

I disagree, however, that Tolkien's own religious or moral views should have any impact on my decision. My view of art is that once it's in the public it's fair game for parody or exploitation for artistic purposes completely different or even totally at odds with the artist/author's own moral/artistic purposes (subject to the limits of copyright infringement, which I do respect). I strongly believe that parody and similar kinds of fair uses, even if disrespectful of the source material (one could argue that Bored of the Rings certainly was disrespectful) have a valid and valuable place in art. Besides, in Tolkien's case the status of his works is so secure that his heirs have nothing to fear from the publication of a few half-baked tales of salacious hobbit romps on a free story site.

That last point is what separates Fan Fic of this sort from continuing a story by a Lit author, in my view. I see them as completely different situations that call for different rules.

 

[gordo12]

This baffles me. How often do we see people stating here that it's immoral to finish/add to a Lit-story. The most common reaction is: Don't, unless you get permission from the author. And here, you say, 'the objections of the original author mean sh*t to me, and I can do whatever I want with his work because it's not plagiarism or copyright infringement.' As if that matters for Lit-stories. No-one else who thinks that's a bit double? As long as it isn't a Lit-story, do whatever you want?

To be honest, I'd rather have someone making a serious addition to my stories than a parody; that would sting...

No, those same discussions have included the word parody which IS an acceptable version of anyone's work. Simon does refer to that.

 

[SimonDoom]

This baffles me. How often do we see people stating here that it's immoral to finish/add to a Lit-story. The most common reaction is: Don't, unless you get permission from the author. And here, you say, 'the objections of the original author mean sh*t to me, and I can do whatever I want with his work because it's not plagiarism or copyright infringement.' As if that matters for Lit-stories. No-one else who thinks that's a bit double? As long as it isn't a Lit-story, do whatever you want?

To be honest, I'd rather have someone making a serious addition to my stories than a parody; that would sting...

OK, let me explain.

I believe the rules for how one deals with Lit authors versus authors outside Lit are different, and should be different.

For famous authors outside Lit, my guide is US copyright law. My principle is that, regardless of what Laurel does or does not allow, I should not infringe an author's copyright. But the flip side of that is that if I believe that my writing constitutes a "fair use" of the work -- which a parody is -- it's perfectly OK. US copyright law allows that. I have no qualms whatsoever about writing a parody or transformative work or something else that constitutes a fair use of the works of authors like Tolkien, or Larry McMurtry, or JK Rowling, or whoever.

Of course, to the extent Laurel imposes additional restrictions beyond what copyright law imposes (such as with underage content), I respect those too. My point is that I will respect an author's copyright law rights even if, in a particular circumstance, Laurel's rules will allow me to get away with NOT doing so.

The wishes of Tolkien's heirs are irrelevant to me. They have no right to limit what I write except insofar as US copyright law limits what I can write. I deny they have any moral or other claims against what I write other than what US copyright law gives them. I respect other countries' laws, but I live and write in the US and that's the law I have to abide by. If the Tolkien heirs are offended by what I write, I don't care as long as what I write is protected by law. The law gives them adequate protection and an adequate incentive for authors to continue publishing works in public, and that's all I have to be concerned about.

My attitude toward Literotica authors is completely different, and much more restrictive. Nobody here is making money off their work (except, possibly, in other venues, but that's not relevant to my thinking because most don't). People are motivated to publish here for other reasons, and as a colleague in this community I want to be respectful of those reasons and to grant them the respect I would want them to grant me so that we all maximize our mutual incentive to continue publishing here. Accordingly, while I'd have no scruples about publishing a parody of Dune, I would never publish a parody of a Literotica author's work without that author's permission. I agree strongly with those who feel it's wrong to continue a story started by a Lit author, even if that author has long since disappeared and seems to be in no position to object.

 

[ElectricBlue]

What Simon says. For me, it comes down to legal rights in the commercial market-place through copyright and so on, where money is involved; and moral ethics towards fellow writers here on Lit, where there is no money in the equation. Published writers (that is, those in the marketplace) have plenty of protection under law, amateur writers here on Lit, not so much, so we have to look after each other. Published writers have lawyers, we don't .

 

[rutger5]

OK, let me explain.

I believe the rules for how one deals with Lit authors versus authors outside Lit are different, and should be different.

For famous authors outside Lit, my guide is US copyright law. My principle is that, regardless of what Laurel does or does not allow, I should not infringe an author's copyright. But the flip side of that is that if I believe that my writing constitutes a "fair use" of the work -- which a parody is -- it's perfectly OK. US copyright law allows that. I have no qualms whatsoever about writing a parody or transformative work or something else that constitutes a fair use of the works of authors like Tolkien, or Larry McMurtry, or JK Rowling, or whoever.

Of course, to the extent Laurel imposes additional restrictions beyond what copyright law imposes (such as with underage content), I respect those too. My point is that I will respect an author's copyright law rights even if, in a particular circumstance, Laurel's rules will allow me to get away with NOT doing so.

The wishes of Tolkien's heirs are irrelevant to me. They have no right to limit what I write except insofar as US copyright law limits what I can write. I deny they have any moral or other claims against what I write other than what US copyright law gives them. I respect other countries' laws, but I live and write in the US and that's the law I have to abide by. If the Tolkien heirs are offended by what I write, I don't care as long as what I write is protected by law. The law gives them adequate protection and an adequate incentive for authors to continue publishing works in public, and that's all I have to be concerned about.

My attitude toward Literotica authors is completely different, and much more restrictive. Nobody here is making money off their work (except, possibly, in other venues, but that's not relevant to my thinking because most don't). People are motivated to publish here for other reasons, and as a colleague in this community I want to be respectful of those reasons and to grant them the respect I would want them to grant me so that we all maximize our mutual incentive to continue publishing here. Accordingly, while I'd have no scruples about publishing a parody of Dune, I would never publish a parody of a Literotica author's work without that author's permission. I agree strongly with those who feel it's wrong to continue a story started by a Lit author, even if that author has long since disappeared and seems to be in no position to object.

Simon there is a difference between what is legal and what is right. I don't give a fig about the wishes of Tolkien's heirs though they certainly have the law on their side. To my mind if someone offered them enough $$ they might consider allowing a gay male bdsm story with Sam and Frodo because they seem to believe that legacy equals the most money in their pockets. My point was it would go against what the actual creator would have wanted.

I'm not throwing stones as I have sinned. Under a different pen name I did write some fan fiction. At the time I didn't think about what i was doing. The site allowed it and there were plenty of that kind of story and I had an idea and went with it. There are times having sexual fan fiction does follow in the spirit of the original work and times it doesn't. I wrote one where it didn't and I regret it. That is just my take.

Something like a comic or even the Star Wars franchise that has been touched by so many writers and creators I don't feel the same way about ethically. That doesn't mean legally the owner of such material can't defend their rights but that is another issue. Whatever company owns the rights to the Archie comics allowed the TV show Riverdale to basically go against everything the comic was for fifty years and they have the legal right. Same way Disney owns Star Wars now and can do what they like with it. If George Lucas were to want to write a Star Wars book he couldn't because he made the choice to take the money so legally that is fine. I hope the money makes him feel better when and if he hates what they've done with his creation.

 

[sbrooks103]

I'm not as much of a category Nazi as I used to be, but my feeling is that the category should reflect what the MAIN thrust of the story is. If it's a LW story, where the lover just happens to be of a different race doesn't make the story I/R, though it should have an I/R tag. Now, if it's BBC (Big Black Cock), you're skating closer to edge, but it's still probably LW with appropriate tags.

On the other hand, there was a Loving Wives story recently with this title: "AN ETHNIC SHARING ADVENTURE." That tells me that the main thrust of the story is Inter-Racial, and probably should be in I/R.

Just one man's opinion.

 

[gordo12]

I'm not as much of a category Nazi as I used to be, but my feeling is that the category should reflect what the MAIN thrust of the story is. If it's a LW story, where the lover just happens to be of a different race doesn't make the story I/R, though it should have an I/R tag. Now, if it's BBC (Big Black Cock), you're skating closer to edge, but it's still probably LW with appropriate tags.

On the other hand, there was a Loving Wives story recently with this title: "AN ETHNIC SHARING ADVENTURE." That tells me that the main thrust of the story is Inter-Racial, and probably should be in I/R.

Just one man's opinion.

I've seen commenters react on LW when the male is black. IR they scream. Make it female and not a peep.

Nowhere in the LW category description does it say "Whites only allowed to screw here."

Upon thinking about it nowhere in ANY category does it say that.

Racist bunch of pricks.

 

[gordo12]

Not to harp on the issue, but THIS is the primary intent of LW.

"Married extra-marital fun: swinging, sharing & more"

Nowhere does it say that only BWC can participate. Nowhere does it say BBC unwelcome. Nor does it say anything about Latino, Japanese, Mexican, Indian or any other race.

In fact I can remember a story recently about a Japanese male and a white wife and not a peep was raised. Nor are any raised when it's Latino. There's been European, Spanish, Greek, English, French, Chinese, Thai, Philippino the list goes on and on.

Women can be any race. She's willing..."close enough!" Race doesn't matter.

Only black males seems to attract the "you don't belong here!"

What a shame.