How To Get To Heaven When You Die

DO YOU PLACE YOUR FAITH IN CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION BELIEVING HE DIED N ROSE AGAIN?

  • YES

    Votes: 8 9.2%
  • NO

    Votes: 44 50.6%
  • I ALREADY PLACED MY FAITH IN CHRIST AND HIS SACRIFICE

    Votes: 22 25.3%
  • OTHER

    Votes: 13 14.9%

  • Total voters
    87
I think you can get an inkling of the UK's feelings about US style worship if you watch the faces of the congregation during the royal wedding. That guy was tame by American standards, but seemed bizarre and alien here.

The issue with the UK version of Christianity is that it's primarily Liberal and doesn't believe what the Bible actually says. That's dangerous theology. The Bible is God's Word and Christ is the only way to heaven, through faith in Him, believing in your heart that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for your sins.
 
The issue with the UK version of Christianity is that it's primarily Liberal and doesn't believe what the Bible actually says. That's dangerous theology. The Bible is God's Word and Christ is the only way to heaven, through faith in Him, believing in your heart that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for your sins.
After blood again? I suppose you want to eat Jesus’ flesh. You are sick. Pray for healing from your barbarism.
 
After blood again? I suppose you want to eat Jesus’ flesh. You are sick. Pray for healing from your barbarism.

As I have told you a few other times before, I do not believe in transsubstantiation. Communion does not become the flesh and body of Christ. I know you would love for me to believe that so you can mock, but it's simply not true.
 
The issue with the UK version of Christianity is that it's primarily Liberal and doesn't believe what the Bible actually says. That's dangerous theology. The Bible is God's Word and Christ is the only way to heaven, through faith in Him, believing in your heart that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for your sins.

You've clearly never been to an English church.
 
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If i told you that in England a man would be be giggled at for wearing cowboy boots, frodo would say it's because we don't wear shoes in England.
 
The issue with the UK version of Christianity is that it's primarily Liberal and doesn't believe what the Bible actually says.

I'd say the issue with the issue with the Church of England is that it was made up by a King after the Catholic pope refused to allow him to divorce his wife.

It's somewhat akin to Bender shouting "Fine! I'm going to build my own theme park with blackjack and hookers!" when he get's thrown out of the lunar theme park.

It'd not inpsired by any form of divinity, but by the monomania of a King who probably had brain damage from a combination of childhood diseases.

However, that's only one version of Christianity from the UK, we also have the Catholics, the Baptists, the Methodists, the Quakers, etc.

****

Going back to XFrodo's claim, however, it amuses me that *any* protestant descended faith can call out another when they themselves abandoned Catholicism because they wanted to ignore the parts of the faith that they found inconvenient. Talk about not seeing the beam in your own eye.

Incidentally, XFrodo, did you miss my question earlier? Tryharder very kindly answered it, (well, some of it) but you didn't.

"What rules do you personally follow, and where do they come from? And which instructions from the bible are you happy to ignore as not being relevant to you?"

For example - if you are against homosexuality because of Leviticus, do you follow the other rules of Leviticus or ignore them? Do you follow Jesus's greatest commandment or are there loopholes that mean you don't have to love everyone?
 
So, to clarify...

Christ died for our sins, but only for the sins you approve of? And if if someone's idea of what sins he died for were to differ from what you think, that makes them less Christian? It all seems very convenient for people who want to invent a hollow reason to feel superior, without being unfashionably racist.
 
The Bible is God's Word.

Which bible, though?

The Protestant 39 book old testament + 27 book new testament?

The Catholic 46 (technically 51) book old testament + 27 book new testament?

The Eastern Orthodox Churches which add the 3 Maccabees, 1 Esdras, Prayer of Manasseh and Psalm 151?

What of the bibles that also include the 2 Esdras?

How about the 81 books in the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible?

The King James translation that adds unicorns and dragons?

And what do you think of the Vulgate bible, the Latin translation that (At he insistence of the Catholic pope) became the basis of the new testament. Do you not worry that some of Gods words may have been left out by Jerome, or mistranslated?

****

We know for a fact that whatever Bible you read, it has been edited, changed, translated and manipulated by man.

Unless you are reading the Old Testament in Hebrew from a scroll, and the New testament in Koine Greek - in which case, forgive me for my assumptions.
 
Incidentally, XFrodo, did you miss my question earlier? Tryharder very kindly answered it, (well, some of it) but you didn't.

"What rules do you personally follow, and where do they come from? And which instructions from the bible are you happy to ignore as not being relevant to you?"

For example - if you are against homosexuality because of Leviticus, do you follow the other rules of Leviticus or ignore them? Do you follow Jesus's greatest commandment or are there loopholes that mean you don't have to love everyone?

Ahhh! Now I understand what you are getting at. What I can't get people to understand is that Jesus made a difference. Look at the Bible as Volume 1-the old testament and Volume 2-the new testament. Volume 1 is the history and workings while awaiting the Messiah. Volume 2 is what happened because the Messiah came. (Matthew 5:17) Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. He took away our need to do "things" like those in Leviticus to get to heaven.

Some things he addressed specifically - like food restrictions. “Hear me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a man which by going into him can defile him; but the things which come out of a man are what defile him…. Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.) (Mark 7:1-5, 14-19; RSV)

At the time those things were needed for closeness to God. Now Jesus came and gave us a way to be with God.

If something is important from the Old Testament it is repeated in the New Testament. It doesn't mean the Old Testament was wrong, but Jesus made a difference. We don't have to do it all ourselves. Nobody can be perfect enough.
 
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The issue with the UK version of Christianity is that it's primarily Liberal and doesn't believe what the Bible actually says. That's dangerous theology.

As with all things you talk about Xfrodo you know next to nothing about what UK christianity is. Most English christians are Anglicans or Methodists of one sort or another with a large Catholic minority. A brief guide to Anglican Theology can be found in the '39 Articles of the Church of England.' You will find them in the 'Book of Common Prayer;' Liberal they ain't.

That said, most Welsh are Methodists of one sort or another and conduct services in their own language and shut the pubs on Sundays. The Scots make do without Bishops and are mainly Presbyterian but split into innumerable groups of idiocy some even more extreme than your lot.

I come from NW Scotland and knew a man from Gairloch on the west coast who took pills on a Saturday to make sure he was constipated on a Sunday. He was terrified of doing work (wiping his arse) on the Sabbath. Yup Gairloch Presbyterians would throw you out Xfrodo as a radical leftist liberal. :D

The Church of England in England has various sections from low church (lower than methodists) through the larger 'broad' church into high church and Anglo Catholic traditions. They have a lot of women priests in the low and broad church. You of course would be in agreement with the Catholics about women in the church.

And then there is the Southwark Diocese but the least said about them the better. :)

That's all for now, hope it helps. ;)
 
As with all things you talk about Xfrodo you know next to nothing about what UK christianity is. Most English christians are Anglicans or Methodists of one sort or another with a large Catholic minority. A brief guide to Anglican Theology can be found in the '39 Articles of the Church of England.' You will find them in the 'Book of Common Prayer;' Liberal they ain't.

That said, most Welsh are Methodists of one sort or another and conduct services in their own language and shut the pubs on Sundays. The Scots make do without Bishops and are mainly Presbyterian but split into innumerable groups of idiocy some even more extreme than your lot.

I come from NW Scotland and knew a man from Gairloch on the west coast who took pills on a Saturday to make sure he was constipated on a Sunday. He was terrified of doing work (wiping his arse) on the Sabbath. Yup Gairloch Presbyterians would throw you out Xfrodo as a radical leftist liberal. :D

The Church of England in England has various sections from low church (lower than methodists) through the larger 'broad' church into high church and Anglo Catholic traditions. They have a lot of women priests in the low and broad church. You of course would be in agreement with the Catholics about women in the church.

And then there is the Southwark Diocese but the least said about them the better. :)

That's all for now, hope it helps. ;)

Thank you for your insight. I appreciate it. Remember that the Bible is our guide on God's truth.

Here is how you know if they are genuine Christians or not. If they place their Faith in Christ alone for salvation, believing in their heart that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for their sins.

Legalism and Observance of the Law for salvation is not the grace of God. Christians are saved by grace through faith alone, without works. Trying to work for salvation and add things to God's plan nullifies grace. That is not where I want to be.

Women preachers would be a Liberal position. Adding works of the Law to Salvation would be a false teaching.
 
If something is important from the Old Testament it is repeated in the New Testament. It doesn't mean the Old Testament was wrong, but Jesus made a difference. We don't have to do it all ourselves. Nobody can be perfect enough.
Bears repeating.
 
Bears repeating.

It's not about Old Testament vs New Testament. It's about Grace vs Law. Even in the Gospels, the Jews are still under the OT Law. It's not until Paul that the Gospel of Grace is revealed to man and Salvation goes out to the entire world. Under Law it's primarily to Jews. Under Grace it's primarily to Gentiles.
 
Thank you for your insight. I appreciate it. Remember that the Bible is our guide on God's truth.

You still haven't answered my query about which Bible, though.

Women preachers would be a Liberal position.

Can you direct me to the part of the New Testament where it says this? Or why it matters? Surely, if the only important part of being a Christian is

"If they place their Faith in Christ alone for salvation, believing in their heart that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for their sins."

then it doesn't matter if you are man, woman, trans, straight, gay or bi, a divorcee, a woman who has had an abortion, you can be a Christian and by extension, a fully recognised preacher. (The Vicar at the Church school I used to teach at was gay, and camper than a field full of tents. Lovely bloke.)

For somebody who says "Legalism and Observance of the Law for salvation is not the grace of God." you sure do support a lot of extra rules.
 
You still haven't answered my query about which Bible, though.



Can you direct me to the part of the New Testament where it says this? Or why it matters? Surely, if the only important part of being a Christian is

"If they place their Faith in Christ alone for salvation, believing in their heart that He died and rose again, shedding His blood as a Sacrifice for their sins."

then it doesn't matter if you are man, woman, trans, straight, gay or bi, a divorcee, a woman who has had an abortion, you can be a Christian and by extension, a fully recognised preacher. (The Vicar at the Church school I used to teach at was gay, and camper than a field full of tents. Lovely bloke.)

For somebody who says "Legalism and Observance of the Law for salvation is not the grace of God." you sure do support a lot of extra rules.

Which Bible? There is only one Bible. There are many translations of the Bible from the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, but the manuscripts didn't change.

I like the KJV, but I think other good versions exist as well. The Jehovah's Witness Bible is a corrupt translation, aimed at changing the meaning of what the manuscripts said to push false doctrine.

Yes I can show you where it says that in the Bible:

Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ro 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

I Cor 15 Declares what "The Gospel is:

1Co 15:1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. {keep...: or, hold fast} {what: Gr. by what speech}
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

It doesn't matter who you are if you do this you are saved. We are to come to Christ just the way we are, submit our lives to Him from our heart, be willing to obey Him and let Him make the changes in our lives. We are all sinners and when we submit our lives truly to Christ, He will convict us of our sins unto repentance if we are willing to obey Him.
 
For somebody who says "Legalism and Observance of the Law for salvation is not the grace of God." you sure do support a lot of extra rules.

It's kind a ironic that Literalists like Xfrodo behave exactly like the Pharisees they condemn in the way they read their religious text with grossly excessive legalistic interpretation. Jesus wouldn't put up with their nonsense. :)
 
Which Bible? There is only one Bible. There are many translations of the Bible from the original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, but the manuscripts didn't change.

I like the KJV, but I think other good versions exist as well.

There are many different Bibles - There is a big wiki article which summarises them. The Ge'ez Bible for example has 81 books.

The biggest translation difference is that protestant churches generally prefer the Masoretic (9th century AD Hebrew) as an original text to the 2nd century BC text of the Greek Septuagint, which Catholics and Eastern Churches followed. Recent discoveries like the Dead Sea Scrolls now suggest that the Septuagint translation from the Hebrew was in fact more original and accurate than the Masoretic Hebrew, which is of course much later.

The KJV is a great work of literature but not the best translation at all. Don't ignore it but read it together with any of the more modern fairly literal translations (post RSV) Read together, understanding is much simpler. The basic problem with the KJV is that it was commissioned to reflect the views of the established Anglican church and is excessively authoritarian in style. For example it always translates what should be 'congregation or meeting' as 'church'
Not much difference apparently but the former implies a ground up fairly democratic organization whereas the latter supports an authoritarian top down approach to governance.

Finally, just a small task for fun. Try to find the word sin in any of the original language texts. When one considers how important sin sinning and sinners are to all the major churches, Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox, its presence or absence is more than a little important. :D I'll come back later to this but haven't time for explanation now.
 
There are many different Bibles - There is a big wiki article which summarises them. The Ge'ez Bible for example has 81 books.

The biggest translation difference is that protestant churches generally prefer the Masoretic (9th century AD Hebrew) as an original text to the 2nd century BC text of the Greek Septuagint, which Catholics and Eastern Churches followed. Recent discoveries like the Dead Sea Scrolls now suggest that the Septuagint translation from the Hebrew was in fact more original and accurate than the Masoretic Hebrew, which is of course much later.

The KJV is a great work of literature but not the best translation at all. Don't ignore it but read it together with any of the more modern fairly literal translations (post RSV) Read together, understanding is much simpler. The basic problem with the KJV is that it was commissioned to reflect the views of the established Anglican church and is excessively authoritarian in style. For example it always translates what should be 'congregation or meeting' as 'church'
Not much difference apparently but the former implies a ground up fairly democratic organization whereas the latter supports an authoritarian top down approach to governance.

Finally, just a small task for fun. Try to find the word sin in any of the original language texts. When one considers how important sin sinning and sinners are to all the major churches, Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox, its presence or absence is more than a little important. :D I'll come back later to this but haven't time for explanation now.

How many people do you know that use a Ge ez Bible? What are the books? It's not the Christian Bible.

Now you are talking about translations, so then you admit that there is only one Bible right? These different texts are all the same Bible, whether Septuagint, Mesoatis or other. They are different manuscripts of the exact same Bible. It wasn't changed or edited.

Like I said, it's all the same Bible, just different translations into English because the Bible wasn't originally written in English.
 
I can't say what most (or even a significant amount) do, but I've come across this. I pastor (not CofE) told me that reading the Bible without the right training and insight meant that the devil was probably controlling what you read. I shit you not.

Candi has a tendency to extrapolate from one person's experience in one part of the world.

Plus I'm a biblical scholar and youth pastor and she's a convert. There are sociology studies on this subject. I'm not using the experience over evidence logical falliacy, it's standard practice in every Christian denomination in the states except Catholicism and certain branches of Lutheran stuff that kids are banned from reading the Bible. Because you have to, 'train up a child' and if you give them a real bible before they're properly indoctrinated to not see the bullshit they see the bullshit. Like... Why did she think there were kid and teen versions if what I said wasn't true? They lose money on those because they're given away to the youth groups so it's not a money game. Like what was the thought process there?

I super don't have that tendency y'all just don't want to admit stuff for weird reasons. She's the one extrapolating from her limited experience and I'm the one trained to teach kids.

Kids call you on your bullshit. Like you know how if you let them think too hard on it they're like, "wait... Is this Santa thing bullshit?". They do that with the Bible if you let them read it before they feel so pressed to 'believe' that they'll do doublethink, and parents know that. So they make little kid versions with most of the bullshit cut out. And most of those kids never read a real bible. They'll think, as adults, that Noah got 2 of every animal and shit because they never read a real bible.

Like literally just Google'implicit atheism' and a lot of this will probably come up. This is a well-known, common thing. I actually put that user on iggy because she knew so little about the way Christianity was commonly practiced, the bible, or anything else that even as an atheist I found it insulting because I'm from the Bible Belt. The way she talks is insulting to my culture. It says you have to train up a child IN THE BIBLE. You don't give sacred shit to kids.

Jesus Christ.
 
We know for a fact that whatever Bible you read, it has been edited, changed, translated and manipulated by man.

Unless you are reading the Old Testament in Hebrew from a scroll, and the New testament in Koine Greek - in which case, forgive me for my assumptions.

It's even more obviously bullshit when every single name is a pun.

But also the unicorn is one thing that's actually not bullshit. It's just a breed of rhyno. Calling bullshit on that in particular aggravates me. It's so obviously a rhyno. Like horses aren't fat and armoured.
 
How many people do you know that use a Ge ez Bible? What are the books? It's not the Christian Bible.

Now you are talking about translations, so then you admit that there is only one Bible right? These different texts are all the same Bible, whether Septuagint, Mesoatis or other. They are different manuscripts of the exact same Bible. It wasn't changed or edited.

Like I said, it's all the same Bible, just different translations into English because the Bible wasn't originally written in English.

73 million Christian people of the Orthodox Tewahedo faith use the Ge'ez Bible, mainly in N.E.Africa, centred in Ethiopia. It along with the Coptic Bible of Egypt (22 million people) were very early versions originating more than 1000 years before the KJV that you use. There is some evidence that parts of the Ge'ez OT dates directly from pre Christian Hebrew sources but it is much more likely that the Greek Septuagint, also (pre - Christian) was their main OT source.

There is very significant additional material in the Ge'ez NT. There is also a very interesting omission - there is no resurrection story at all in the Ge'ez gospel of Mark. This is especially interesting given Western Christianity's difficulties with the end of Mark's gospel.

I will see if I can attach the wiki article listing the various and different canons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

The tables in this article make it very clear that these are not merely different translations but these different Bibles have very different content as well. I can see from a literalists point of view that presents a major problem because which version is true; the English KJV translated from poor Greek and solid Latin sources (also from Greek and 9th century Hebrew)1600 years later, or a 3rd/4th century Ge'ez source translated from original Koine Greek and Septuagint sources.

There are no easy answers.

But the Masoretic text is the accepted Hebrew Canon whereas the Mesoatis you mention is the name of a modern Greek Supermarket. :D

One day - maybe - if I have a month or so to spare, I will do a brief piece on the translation errors - plus both accidental and deliberate editorial changes.
 
When I was a kid, every child in school was gifted a copy of the new testament at around 10y/o. It's only just occurred to me how expensive that must be, a church giving away literally millions of books. Come high school, they were highly prized for the thin pages when cigarette papers ran out.
 
73 million Christian people of the Orthodox Tewahedo faith use the Ge'ez Bible, mainly in N.E.Africa, centred in Ethiopia. It along with the Coptic Bible of Egypt (22 million people) were very early versions originating more than 1000 years before the KJV that you use. There is some evidence that parts of the Ge'ez OT dates directly from pre Christian Hebrew sources but it is much more likely that the Greek Septuagint, also (pre - Christian) was their main OT source.

There is very significant additional material in the Ge'ez NT. There is also a very interesting omission - there is no resurrection story at all in the Ge'ez gospel of Mark. This is especially interesting given Western Christianity's difficulties with the end of Mark's gospel.

I will see if I can attach the wiki article listing the various and different canons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

The tables in this article make it very clear that these are not merely different translations but these different Bibles have very different content as well. I can see from a literalists point of view that presents a major problem because which version is true; the English KJV translated from poor Greek and solid Latin sources (also from Greek and 9th century Hebrew)1600 years later, or a 3rd/4th century Ge'ez source translated from original Koine Greek and Septuagint sources.

There are no easy answers.

But the Masoretic text is the accepted Hebrew Canon whereas the Mesoatis you mention is the name of a modern Greek Supermarket. :D

One day - maybe - if I have a month or so to spare, I will do a brief piece on the translation errors - plus both accidental and deliberate editorial changes.


...And which books are contained within these bibles is the more important question?

You realize that these Bibles are merely translations from the original manuscripts right? Also, merely including a book into their Bible doesn't automatically make that book inspired. There were strict criteria for books to be included in the Bibical canon. One was that it had to be written by an actual eyewitness to the events. The second was the a NT book had to be written by an Apostle or an associate of an Apostle. The only 2 exceptions are James and Jude which were written by the half Brothers of Christ. So, merely including a book in their Bible doesn't make it an inspired book.
 
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