Question about paid publishing outside Lit

[JohnDavidSmith]

I know there are authors who publish free stories here while also publishing paid work (Amazon, B&N, Smashwords, etc, or Lot's Cave in the case of Incest/Taboo), so I know it's not against the rules to publish some stories here, while publishing other stories as paid work.

However, I have questions about paid publishing of stories already posted here on Lit (assuming the paid version is a significant improvement on the free lit version).

I'm considering taking my recent Incest/Taboo story, beefing it up into a full-length novel or novella (something like 30-40 thousand words, or at least 20 thousand), and maybe publishing it with Lot's Cave. Not necessarily because of the positive response to the Lit version; it's actually an idea I'd already toyed with prior to posting it.

https://www.literotica.com/s/the-shy-exhibitionist

The story was originally going to be a Nude Day 2019 entry. When I missed the deadline, I mulled over the idea of paid publishing instead, before forgetting about the story for several months. I also flirted with the thought again for a few days before I posted it.

If I do go the paid publishing route with Lot's Cave(on this story in particular), my concern is what to do with the version already published on Literotica. I'd hate to unpublish it here, as that would likely disappoint and/or annoy the people who have already read and liked it. I also don't want to break any site rules (including any unspoken rules). *

Obviously it would be silly to expect anyone to pay for a story already available for free, which is why I'd make sure the paid version had enough value above the free version to be worth paying for.

If the Lot's Cave version was significantly different (as I'm planning it to be), with enough new material added and/or current material fleshed out, would leaving it published here (in its original shorter form) be acceptable?

If I do unpublish the Lit version (like if I decided to publish it as paid work, and unpublishing was the only way, even in the case of the paid version being significantly added/improved upon), would I be committing suicide as a Lit author? Would a reader of the Lit story feel somehow hurt or betrayed if there was a longer version of said story available as a paid ebook?

I also know I can't point readers of the Literotica story to the longer published version outside of the approved channels (author bio, forum signature, and the official release thread).

Btw, I do intend to continue to write on Lit. Partly to establish myself as an author & hopefully snag a few customers of paid published works, as well as simply giving people here who enjoyed my story more of the same (albeit shorter stories, around 10-ish thousand words; I'd probably save most, if not all, of the longer works for paid publishing).

I also intend to publish stories with Lot's Cave either way; I'm mainly concerned with the one story in particular.

I also may turn the paid published version of The Shy Exhibitionist (if I go that route) into a series, which *probably* shouldn't anger readers of the Lit story, since the Lit story didn't end on a cliffhanger, and could stand alone. I know you're not supposed to start a series here on Lit only to have the series continue as paid work, but I assume that's in the case of the Lit story being incomplete without the series. I would imagine there's nothing wrong about paid follow ups/sequels to a story that can stand on its own. If I'm off base on that assumption (in terms of actual rules or unspoken rules), please correct me.

*I'm aware Lot's Cave would have their own policy on this, which I will have to ask them about, but this post is purely about the ramifications it would have here on Lit.

 

[Bramblethorn]

As far as Literotica is concerned, publishing the same work elsewhere is fine.

What Literotica doesn't allow:

- excessive promotion of other sites here (sounds like you're already aware of the rules for that)
- posting "teaser" work here, where the Literotica version is incomplete and readers are required to go to another site for the full version

I'm not sure exactly where the line is drawn between "teaser", "different version" (e.g. my stuff on Another Site is formatted for e-reader and has basic cover art), and "self-contained stories in a series".

 

[JohnDavidSmith]

The version of my story on another site (paid ebook on Lot's Cave, most likely) would have e-reader formatting and cover art of course, but it would also have significantly more content. More content that someone who read the Lit version wouldn't even be aware of unless they went on to my bio, saw my signature, or saw the appropriately placed forum post.

Even if the book was expanded into a novel series, no one who read the Lit story would have any idea going purely from the text of the story. There is nothing in the text of the Lit version that implies either a longer version of the same story, or that there would be further entries.

There is an implication of future sex between the two of them, including a challenge to an all-night fuck-fest, but its meant as more of a general hint of things to come (ie, to show that their sexual relationship will continue, but not necessarily promise further entries. However, any sequel novels would skip over that specific thing to a future point in their relationship.

That's a tricky thing about endings, even on stand-alones; you want the story to have a satisfying conclusion, while still reminding the reader that the characters will continue to live after the story ends.

That being said, I suppose someone *could* interpret that ending as a promise to write about that fuck-fest. In that case, I could write a Lit-exclusive short story about that all-night fuck-fest between them, just to be safe (and end on something like "I love you," where it has a more definite ending). That, and to give fans of the Lit story a bonus, and help establish my presence here.

So I think I would be ok to publish the story on Lot's Cave while leaving the shorter Lit original up, provided I only promoted the paid version on the proper channels. At least, I would be ok so far as official rules.

I suppose my question then becomes, how much of a risk would I be taking in alienating Lit readers if everything was kosher according to the letter of the law.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Leave it up on Lit and cross promote in your profile, signature block, and the thread linked in the first Sticky at the top of this page.

That's what I've done, and sold a hundred bucks worth to loyal readers from here.

It's vanity publishing, really - to make a sizeable buck you have to keep up the content churn and figure out how to market yourself. That's all too hard for me, there'd never be a decent return.

 

[gordo12]

It's been done. I've read shorter works here that are complete to a certain point and then the longer version is for sale elsewhere.

Keeping the content the same is important though.

The story I purchased was the same until it got to the last few chapters and all of a sudden you find it detouring into the woman taking on 20 guys in a gang bang. The original story never even hinted at that. Didn't like it, don't like the gang bang concept and I regretted the purchase.

 

[KeithD]

Keeping the content the same is important though.

To you, perhaps, but not to all potential buyers, so it being "important" not to redo the content isn't important to everyone. I would hope JDS wouldn't take this as solid advice on what to do/not to do.

 

[gordo12]

To you, perhaps, but not to all potential buyers, so it being "important" not to redo the content isn't important to everyone. I would hope JDS wouldn't take this as solid advice on what to do/not to do.

So add a section on pedophilia or a political rant. Change it from gay to bdsm or bdsm to non-human. Tentacles anyone? Will sasquatch make a cameo? Where are the limits?

Seriously Keith? Readers enjoy the flow and timbre of an writer. That's why they buy their books. I've made sudden changes midway in the content of a story and it didn't go down well. Got my ass kicked by some of the readers (mostly female). It was one of the first lessons I learned on Lit.

Like any product it's about keeping the customers happy.

And BTW I didn't say "redo the content." I said keep the content the same as the original story. IE softcore bdsm doesn't change to hardcore bdsm or outright torture in the new section.

So if keeping content similar for the readers isn't important why do you have 157 out of 160 stories on your profile as Gay Male? Is that because it's important for you to keep your readers happy? Finding what they expect from you?

 

[KeithD]

So add a section on pedophilia or a political rant. Change it from gay to bdsm or bdsm to non-human. Tentacles anyone? Will sasquatch make a cameo? Where are the limits?

Seriously Keith? Readers enjoy the flow and timbre of an writer. That's why they buy their books. I've made sudden changes midway in the content of a story and it didn't go down well. Got my ass kicked by some of the readers (mostly female). It was one of the first lessons I learned on Lit.

Like any product it's about keeping the customers happy.

And BTW I didn't say "redo the content." I said keep the content the same as the original story. IE softcore bdsm doesn't change to hardcore bdsm or outright torture in the new section.

So if keeping content similar for the readers isn't important why do you have 157 out of 160 stories on your profile as Gay Male? Is that because it's important for you to keep your readers happy? Finding what they expect from you?

Sorry, but you asserted an "it's important" on something that is destructive to the creative process. Taking something you've written and recasting it for submission--even radical recasting--to another venue is creative and has been done back in time and it . . . is . . . not . . . important not to do it. There is absolutely no requirement to keep in the original parameters of a work for all time, especially when you are publishing it to a different platform. There is no need to babysit for a reader in that way.

Your query about the content of just one of my Literotica accounts is irrelevant to the point of what you do with a story written to one venue and how you choose to twist it any way you like to a different venue. I do it all of the time and if one of my readers is so pantywaisted that they have the vapors in finding that I've taken a gay male story from Literotica and turned it into a lesbian cozy for the marketplace (which I've done before), tough shit on them.

You've taken a personal preference and tried to turn it into "do/not do" guidance for other writers to follow and I'm called bullshit on that.

 

[8letters]

Obviously it would be silly to expect anyone to pay for a story already available for free, which is why I'd make sure the paid version had enough value above the free version to be worth paying for.

I believe you are wrong here. My understanding is that people who are considering buying your story aren't going to check to see if it's available for free somewhere else. If a person is looking to pay for porn, then they are looking to make the best porn purchase and aren't going to be thinking about free alternatives. The only reason for taking down your story from LitE is if the other site requires that it be taken down.

 

[gordo12]

Sorry, but you asserted an "it's important" on something that is destructive to the creative process. Taking something you've written and recasting it for submission--even radical recasting--to another venue is creative and has been done back in time and it . . . is . . . not . . . important not to do it. There is absolutely no requirement to keep in the original parameters of a work for all time, especially when you are publishing it to a different platform. There is no need to babysit for a reader in that way.

Your query about the content of just one of my Literotica accounts is irrelevant to the point of what you do with a story written to one venue and how you choose to twist it any way you like to a different venue. I do it all of the time and if one of my readers is so pantywaisted that they have the vapors in finding that I've taken a gay male story from Literotica and turned it into a lesbian cozy for the marketplace (which I've done before), tough shit on them.

You've taken a personal preference and tried to turn it into "do/not do" guidance for other writers to follow and I'm called bullshit on that.

Well, you're taking a personal preference of saying tough shit on the reader and turning that into do/not do advice so I'm calling bullshit on that.

Curious: your gay male story to lesbian cozy (whatever that is?) did you publish under the same author name or use another?

We may have to agree to disagree here.

 

[KeithD]

Curious: your gay male story to lesbian cozy (whatever that is?) did you publish under the same author name or use another?

Those particular ones, under a different name, so that's not a good example.

But I have other stories here that I've expanded--and twisted--for the marketplace, and will continue to do so. In fact, I think that's the best to do, because the version here is a free read. There should be something different to be found in what my publisher is putting into the marketplace. The names are also different from what they are posted under on this particular Web site, but not by choice. Literotica wouldn't give me my publishing name on an account. I publish the same stories on other Web sites in the same name I publish expansions/recasts in the marketplace.

Your comment on personal preference and me having them as well has no teeth for this thread. You asserted your personal preference as guidance "important" for writers to do. You're the one trying to give limiting rules (that don't exist) for writers on this thread. That's what I've called bullshit on. There's a tendency on this discussion board for amateur writers to try to assert limiting rules on writing creative that not only do not exist, they harm writers who take them on as valid, when they aren't.

 

[gordo12]

Those particular ones, under a different name, so that's not a good example.

But I have other stories here that I've expanded--and twisted--for the marketplace, and will continue to do so. In fact, I think that's the best to do, because the version here is a free read. There should be something different to be found in what my publisher is putting into the marketplace. The names are also different from what they are posted under on this particular Web site, but not by choice. Literotica wouldn't give me my publishing name on an account. I publish the same stories on other Web sites in the same name I publish expansions/recasts in the marketplace.

Your comment on personal preference and me having them as well has no teeth for this thread. You asserted your personal preference as guidance "important" for writers to do. You're the one trying to give limiting rules (that don't exist) for writers on this thread. That's what I've called bullshit on. There's a tendency on this discussion board for amateur writers to try to assert limiting rules on writing creative that not only do not exist, they harm writers who take them on as valid, when they aren't.

So there's your red herring. It's not about amateur writing or being creative. You already did that with the existing product. After the book is written it's about marketing. Something I know a fair bit about having set sales records and pioneered multi-million dollar sales tracks in the financial industry.

So guy walks into a restaurant. Waiter throws a plate of slop down, swats at a few flies. Picks the carcass of one out of the meal.

"Now don't you go getting the vapours or being a panty-waist."

Wrecking your reputation...great move

My own "personal" edict would be to keep the tone of the book similar to what I started with. Others can do what they want.

 

[KeithD]

You were giving bogus guidance to writers on what to write. I've told them not to take it as gospel. It's up to them what they take away from that. Bottom line and out.

 

[KeithD]

I believe you are wrong here. My understanding is that people who are considering buying your story aren't going to check to see if it's available for free somewhere else. If a person is looking to pay for porn, then they are looking to make the best porn purchase and aren't going to be thinking about free alternatives. The only reason for taking down your story from LitE is if the other site requires that it be taken down.

You'd think JDS's assumption was common sense, but I take a couple of cruises a year on it not being the reality.

 

[gordo12]

You were giving bogus guidance to writers on what to write. I've told them not to take it as gospel. It's up to them what they take away from that. Bottom line and out.

And your "alternative facts" don't hold much water either.

The OP can make their own decision as to what makes more sense to them. Or maybe something else. I'm out too.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Keeping the content the same is important though.

No, it's up to the author. They're two different products; one is free on Lit, the other might be longer or shorter as a book available commercially.

Lit's policy is to prohibit teasers here, where the full version is only available elsewhere; but a different version is a different version, buyer beware.

 

[JohnDavidSmith]

On the thought of keeping content the same, perhaps it's better stated as not adding content that isn't properly setup, either in the pre-existing text, or through a believeable progression in the new text.

For example, if you have a story about a brother and sister who are having sex, but they have to keep the relationship secret from their bible-thumping parents...don't have the next chapter be a family orgy, unless you've done some damn clever foreshadowing in the earlier text, and/or write a believeable bridge from one to the next.

Tones, genres, etc *can* change, IMO. I think the trick is being skillful enough to pull it off organically.

A lot of people like to be surprised when reading a book...but they hate surprises that aren't earned in some way. The end of a story can't just surprise; it has to surprise in a convincing way. "I totally didn't see that coming" isn't enough. A *good* surprise is more like "I totally didn't see that coming, but I should have!"

 

[KeithD]

On the thought of keeping content the same, perhaps it's better stated as not adding content that isn't properly setup, either in the pre-existing text, or through a believeable progression in the new text.

For example, if you have a story about a brother and sister who are having sex, but they have to keep the relationship secret from their bible-thumping parents...don't have the next chapter be a family orgy, unless you've done some damn clever foreshadowing in the earlier text, and/or write a believeable bridge from one to the next.

Tones, genres, etc *can* change, IMO. I think the trick is being skillful enough to pull it off organically.

A lot of people like to be surprised when reading a book...but they hate surprises that aren't earned in some way. The end of a story can't just surprise; it has to surprise in a convincing way. "I totally didn't see that coming" isn't enough. A *good* surprise is more like "I totally didn't see that coming, but I should have!"

A recast means you'd remake the existing content to meld with the changes you are making in the overall slant/story. No, you wouldn't just tack on a different ending if what preceded it didn't fit, but that's not what a recast of work does.

And "People" don't like just one way of doing anything. The one, universal "people" reader doesn't exist.

I swear there's an effort here to build limiting barriers for writers that don't exist unless you let them exist.

 

[gordo12]

I swear there's an effort here to build limiting barriers for writers that don't exist unless you let them exist.

Now who's got the vapours?

Just kidding

I'd say JDS summed it up very nicely and his incest/bible thumper example worked perfectly.

The one, universal "people" reader doesn't exist.

No but the average reader does. And most sales campaigns are aimed at the average.

If you're going to extend a free story extend it with quality content similar to that story.

If you're going other places, creatively rewrite the damn thing, give it a different title and market that as a new book. Period.

 

[gordo12]

buyer beware.

Social media has killed or severely curtailed that way of selling. How many large companies have you seen back down lately when the social media ladies get going.

If I have to be deceptive to be creative...that's just wrong.

And now I'm really out of here. Really!

 

[KeithD]

No but the average reader does. .

There you go again, asserting what you can't possibly know. There is no "average reader."

I don't have the vapors, but I admit that continuing to assert what you can't know as you are doing is like fingernails scraping down a blackboard.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I believe you are wrong here. My understanding is that people who are considering buying your story aren't going to check to see if it's available for free somewhere else. If a person is looking to pay for porn, then they are looking to make the best porn purchase and aren't going to be thinking about free alternatives. The only reason for taking down your story from LitE is if the other site requires that it be taken down.

FWIW, everything I have up on SW for sale is also available on Lit for free, and I still get sales on those stories there. (Or did, back when I was putting up new content there - it's been a while.) Some of it seems to be people who don't read Literotica, and maybe some from people who want it in e-reader format, but I think there's also a bit of people using it as a tip jar for content they've already read.

 

[gordo12]

There you go again, asserting what you can't possibly know. There is no "average reader."

I don't have the vapors, but I admit that continuing to assert what you can't know as you are doing is like fingernails scraping down a blackboard.

Go talk to your publishers. I'll bet they've got every genre graphed up the ying yang for averages.

 

[KeithD]

I've worked in mainstream publishing for over twenty years now. They deal in targeted audiences, not "average readers."

There go those fingernails across the blackboard again.

 

[JohnDavidSmith]

As far as the Lit policy on not posting incomplete story teasers where the conclusion is only available somewhere else, does anyone know where that is stated? I know it exists because I remember reading it somewhere, but I can't find it again. It doesn't seem to be in the Lit faqs or any of the forum stickies or rule lists, unless I'm overlooking it.

I mostly just want to read over the actual rule again, to make sure that my idea (turning a complete, self-contained Lit story into a series outside of Lit) would be ok. I at least want to make sure it wouldn't be outright breaking a rule.

Any mod input on this would be appreciated.