The Reality of Socialized Medicine

[muycurioso]

I heart the V.A.

I love the V.A but they serve a small part of the population, not 350,000,000 people. The health care in the active duty was not so great when I was serving. It sucked! Those are kind of socialized medicine.

 

[BotanyBoy]

"At any cost?" - that is where I have difficulty. The US spend on healthcare is insane NOW compared with almost any developed country that has a universal system of heathcare.

The cost I'm talking about is not monetary but ideological and moral one.

A federally forced 1 size fits all HC system, is absolutely unnecessary, illiberal, a direct attack on statehood, democracy, self determination and individual liberty....it's anti-American.

There is no reason this should be federal, there is also no reason why blue states who want a socialized HC system can't have their own.

And if let's say Texas goes middle of the road and has just a public option style HC system but decides to not eliminate their private HC industry? They can do that.

And if Wyoming and Kansas don't want any HC system? They can do that too.

The question is if these "progressive" ideas are SOOOO fucking amazing why don't they do it?? Not a single blue state can manage to show a working example of what they want to FORCE everyone into and won't do it themselves.

California has all that good money and is super progressive. Why don't they provide HC to anyone who steps foot in CA asks for it?? 5th largest economy on the planet!!! If anyone can make it work it should be them.

US citizens are being ripped off by insurance companies, big pharma and ambulance-chasing lawyers

100%....and I think there needs to be some MAJOR legislation to reform the cluster fuck of half assed attempts to do "something" that is enabling all that ripping off.

I just don't think giving the people who have proven themselves to be nothing but corrupt and incompetent at doing much of anything more money and more control is the right answer.

It's sure as shit is not a M'arican one.

 

[PrincepsCyberius]

He's not wrong, in some ways it is superior, like getting most folks taken care of.

The question is however, is it the US governments job to protect the rights and liberty of it's individual citizens or is it the US governments job to ensure more equal outcomes for all??

Gotta pick one, can't have both at the same time....and that's the ideological core of the cold civil war we are in now.

A large and growing group in the USA thinks it's the federal governments primary responsibility to the US people is to provide social and economic equity at any cost.

The rest of us think it's the governments primary responsibility to secure the rights and liberty of the people so that they may pursue their individual happiness.

That's a good point. Unlike the USA's federal Constitution, the constitutions (be they explicit or, like the UK's, traditional) of most other nations are designed to empower government. Our Constitution was intended to define and limit the federal government. Universal health care does not fall anywhere near the defined powers of the federal government.

That, to me, is a sufficient argument against a federal health system, and every bit as important as the economic reasons against it.

 

[bhurry]

I'm guessing you don't have proof of any of this. Not a shock. But we do have proof that thanks to your hero Trump the Orange Nazi people are getting suckered into shitty health plans not to mention all the other changes Trump implemented that made Obamcare worse.

Hey bot your racist alt got busted lying. You better come pick it up before it gets banned like dawn.

Could we please see the proof? Thank you.

 

[BotanyBoy]

That's a good point. Unlike the USA's federal Constitution, the constitutions (be they explicit or, like the UK's, traditional) of most other nations are designed to empower government. Our Constitution was intended to define and limit the federal government. Universal health care does not fall anywhere near the defined powers of the federal government.

That, to me, is a sufficient argument against a federal health system, and every bit as important as the economic reasons against it.

No, there is absolutely no reason we need a federal level HC system.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I think you're missing out on a couple points. We're 22 trillion dollars in debt, why? because politicians can't make tough decisions or balance a budget ( both parties ). SS and the VA are examples of government run entities that are poorly managed. Poor customer service and care in both. Those departments are two of our largest organizations and both have demonstrated that government cannot efficiently manage anything. They are incapable of evaluating employee performance and separating the wheat from the chaff whereas in private companies if you don't perform you're history ( efficiency ), once on the government dole, they are there for life. I believe, in general, people would rather take their chances with private HC then let unabated government intrusion.

Once a government program is created you can't get rid of it, that's just the way our politics works. Politicians bring home the bacon and fight tooth and nail to keep it. One reason why I support term limits. We have a system where people vote on the one side and then we have the other side where politicians spend most of their time campaigning. Everyone likes their local politician but for the most part the synergies don't exist or don't work. Every government program is loaded with waste fraud and abuse and are incapable of policing up after themselves. Their incapable of condensing redundant programs into one and eliminating waste and saving taxpayers money.

It would be more effective to provide safety net type healthcare fixes for the less fortunate and create a high risk pool for pre-existing conditions and continue to march with what we have. There are millions pushing for some version of NHC and I'm afraid if that happens our economy bellies up, we become insolvent as a country and could land us in a depression where everyone loses. I believe medical innovations suffers also. Government regulating medical personnel wages will lead to an exitus of potential medical practitioners to other career field unless something is done with the education cost.

Other countries that have NHC, if you're satisfied with what you have GREAT! we don't hold that against you. I think that had we employed a NHC system some 60 years ago it could have been different and possibly successful but based on the abuse in our social security program, I'm not so sure.

You have valid points, ( I agree with most) yet, study after study shows the current HC systems of the US and Can are basically equal in health outcomes. Yet the current cost of delivering health care in the US, as paid by your government currently is more than our government pays. In fact it is the highest of all countries on a per capita basis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

I keep hearing the above arguments, but you surely can't advocate that for profit health care is the most cost efficient delivery method.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

There is so much that's untrue in what you wrote, I'm unsure where to begin. Let's start with this myth:

"If you are poor and ill in the US...."​

Under Federal law, hospitals must provide life-saving treatment. There are also charities and various free clinics that provide for the poor. I know. I've contributed to and done volunteer work at several.

Then there's:

"It works in other countries with a variety of systems at a much lower cost."​

You're not the first person to assert this here, and I've previously debunked it.

What do you mean by "cost"? Perhaps less money, but what about the human cost of longer waits for inferior service? What about the human cost of death panels, or whatever euphemism you care to use?

Nothing was debunked, the WHO studies of health care outcomes between the US and Canada have repeatedly shown there is no difference in the health outcomes.

The Canadian system is also less costly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

Since both system are inherently different, there are perceived problems. Yet Canadians have a long average life span, which is increasing year over year, vs the US which is actually decreasing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Last I have a few friends and relatives in the states. Two factual situations:


One is 58, due to medical costs, he has had to re mortgage his home, his common quote now is, "How long till I move to Florida to live on the beach." He had health insurance, the mortgage is cover the cost of the co-pays ( 28K)

Another who lost both her legs at the knees. She was hit from behind by a car, while both persons were standing between the cars checking the damage, a third car ( driver texting) hit the last car, sending it into the first car, crushing her legs.
The other person managed to get out of the way.

She had no medical insurance through work , her own insurance for the car is not covering her medical bills. The second car's insurance is not covering her bills, since they claim no responsibility. The third car's insurance company is fighting the bills in court. The accident occurred in 2015, there have been charities etc helping her out, this spring she finally received her 'stubbies", and is now at least out of the wheelchair.

As she say's collection bills don't bother her anymore, she just throws them away. She has given up her cell phone, that way the collection agencies can't call her.
So far she has received about $50k to help offset some of her costs from the third party insurance company, her hospital bill was over 300K.

If this had occurred here in Canada, she would have been in and out with artificial legs in under 6 month. No bills, collection agencies, etc etc. The legal fight between insurance companies would be happening, but it would not be the problem here, that it is in the US.

" but what about the human cost of longer waits for inferior service? What about the human cost of death panels, or whatever euphemism you care to use?'

Your words above, I hope you read mine, and understand you did not debunk anything.

 

[DawnONight]

Nothing was debunked....

Your words above, I hope you read mine, and understand you did not debunk anything.

I read yours in its entirety.

Individual anecdotes do not prove anything in this arena.

You failed to address any of my original points.

The debunking stands.

 

[bhurry]

Nothing was debunked, the WHO studies of health care outcomes between the US and Canada have repeatedly shown there is no difference in the health outcomes.

The Canadian system is also less costly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

Since both system are inherently different, there are perceived problems. Yet Canadians have a long average life span, which is increasing year over year, vs the US which is actually decreasing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

Last I have a few friends and relatives in the states. Two factual situations:


One is 58, due to medical costs, he has had to re mortgage his home, his common quote now is, "How long till I move to Florida to live on the beach." He had health insurance, the mortgage is cover the cost of the co-pays ( 28K)

Another who lost both her legs at the knees. She was hit from behind by a car, while both persons were standing between the cars checking the damage, a third car ( driver texting) hit the last car, sending it into the first car, crushing her legs.
The other person managed to get out of the way.

She had no medical insurance through work , her own insurance for the car is not covering her medical bills. The second car's insurance is not covering her bills, since they claim no responsibility. The third car's insurance company is fighting the bills in court. The accident occurred in 2015, there have been charities etc helping her out, this spring she finally received her 'stubbies", and is now at least out of the wheelchair.

As she say's collection bills don't bother her anymore, she just throws them away. She has given up her cell phone, that way the collection agencies can't call her.
So far she has received about $50k to help offset some of her costs from the third party insurance company, her hospital bill was over 300K.

If this had occurred here in Canada, she would have been in and out with artificial legs in under 6 month. No bills, collection agencies, etc etc. The legal fight between insurance companies would be happening, but it would not be the problem here, that it is in the US.

" but what about the human cost of longer waits for inferior service? What about the human cost of death panels, or whatever euphemism you care to use?'

Your words above, I hope you read mine, and understand you did not debunk anything.

How about we all move to Canada?

 

[BotanyBoy]

How about we all move to Canada?

Several tens of millions of "Americans" should....their hatred for individual liberty makes them far more suited to live somewhere other than the USA.

 

[gunthernehmen]

How about we all move to Canada?

I commented that any of our tired, weary, healthcareless could just bop on up to Montreal or someplace and get their healthcare needs taken care of, but I don't think fuzzy realized I was serious.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I read yours in its entirety.

Individual anecdotes do not prove anything in this arena.

You failed to address any of my original points.

The debunking stands.

I had addressed them prior to this post. You just disagree.

There comes a point where sometimes you have to agree to disagree, i just hope you never end up in one of those situations. I know that if I did, I won't have to go bankrupt, and depend upon the charity of others.

 

[gunthernehmen]

I had addressed them prior to this post. You just disagree.

There comes a point where sometimes you have to agree to disagree, i just hope you never end up in one of those situations. I know that if I did, I won't have to go bankrupt, and depend upon the charity of others.

We don't need to do either one of those.

If Americans get ill and don't have heath insurance then we only need to move to Canada and we'll get patched up there. You have universal health care coverage, after all.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

We don't need to do either one of those.

If Americans get ill and don't have heath insurance then we only need to move to Canada and we'll get patched up there. You have universal health care coverage, after all.

Yes we do.

Best make sure you come claiming refugee status though, if you are just coming as a tourist, you better have bought health travel insurance before you left.

 

[gunthernehmen]

Yes we do.

Best make sure you come claiming refugee status though, if you are just coming as a tourist, you better have bought health travel insurance before you left.

Refugee, of course. Just like the ones coming here.

We'll just say something like "OMG Orange Man Bad!" and you'll have to take us in.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Refugee, of course. Just like the ones coming here.

We'll just say something like "OMG Orange Man Bad!" and you'll have to take us in.

You never know, that might just work...chuckles

 

[BotanyBoy]

Yes we do.

Best make sure you come claiming refugee status though, if you are just coming as a tourist, you better have bought health travel insurance before you left.

How racist....why does Canada hate people who need help??

Don't you know ID cards and insurance are racist????

 

[BotanyBoy]

double post.

 

[gunthernehmen]

Yes we do.

Best make sure you come claiming refugee status though, if you are just coming as a tourist, you better have bought health travel insurance before you left.

Wait a second. Do you mean to say that undocumented immigrants (as opposed to refugees or tourists) are NOT covered by your universal healthcare system?!

 

[BotanyBoy]

Wait a second. Do you mean to say that undocumented immigrants (as opposed to refugees or tourists) are NOT covered by your universal healthcare system?!

That's what I heard....who knew Canada was a fascist white nationalist state

 

[JackLuis]

Insurance industry is clearly ‘terrified,’ says Bernie Sanders, as lawmakers admit lobbyists helped them write attacks on Medicare for All

At last Bernie outs the Insurance Co's as the culprits. We should have listened to Wendell Potter years ago when he blew his whistle.

It's not about socialism it's about Insurance Co's profits!

 

[BotanyBoy]

It's not about socialism it's about Insurance Co's profits!

And socialism is the cure for profit and prosperity!!!! Vote (D)!!! Vote oppression!!

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Wait a second. Do you mean to say that undocumented immigrants (as opposed to refugees or tourists) are NOT covered by your universal healthcare system?!

What is an undocumented immigrant? Someone who forgot their passport?

 

[gunthernehmen]

What is an undocumented immigrant? Someone who forgot their passport?

As you surely know, it's the liberal term for illegal aliens. People that enter the country illegally, without a passport, without claiming refuge without paying taxes on the money they Earth working illegally. Yet still expect all the benefits afforded citizens.

 

[YDB95]

As you surely know, it's the liberal term for illegal aliens. People that enter the country illegally, without a passport, without claiming refuge without paying taxes on the money they Earth working illegally. Yet still expect all the benefits afforded citizens.

It's got nothing to do with whether or not they pay taxes (many do) or whether they "expect all the benefits afforded citizens" (Dumpington's rantings aside, there is no evidence that most illegal aliens ever try to vote, for example).