The Reality of Socialized Medicine

[YDB95]

No, but it is evidence that it can't be trusted with it.

Certainly if people make a point of electing a party that hates government it is.

Also the fact that it's not a Constitutional duty is strong legal evidence that without an amendment it should be up to the states to deal with that shit.

Not according to the Supreme Court. I'll take their opinion over yours hands down.

Only if you assume that the government is both competent and trustworthy...and we both know it's neither of those.

The solution to which is not to throw up our hands and do nothing.

 

[gunthernehmen]

Major medical still in the context of a national HC plan.

I agree, they can't be trusted.

I'm speaking of a healthcare plan like my current, private healthcare plan, covering major medical issues and not covering small ones. I am 100% opposed to any mandatory or single payer system.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Certainly if people make a point of electing a party that hates government it is.

AntiFa and other various anarchist are the only people that hate government.

What people don't like is an overbearing government. Especially liberals and the USA being founded on a radically liberal ideology, most M'ericans.

Not according to the Supreme Court. I'll take their opinion over yours hands down.

Cite?

And most authoritarians would....can't let states decide, oh no no no freedom and liberty BAD and un-American.

Gotta impose a 1 size fits all rule with an iron fist!!!

The solution to which is not to throw up our hands and do nothing.

No the solution is to keep them from having the chance to engage in such activities in the first place by keeping them out of the private markets as much as possible.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I'm speaking of a healthcare plan like my current, private healthcare plan, covering major medical issues and not covering small ones. I am 100% opposed to any mandatory or single payer system.

I see, I thought you were talking about the feds running a HC plan.

 

[gunthernehmen]

Not for people who didn't have any health care at all beforehand, or who literally couldn't get it (preexisting conditions). Besides, I heard a lot more talk about "skyrocketing costs" than any actual examples thereof. In the cases I knew of where people's costs did go up, it was because their old policies didn't actually cover anything. You might just as well have no insurance - and then guess who ultimately does get stuck with the bill when people get sick and can't pay their bills? The taxpayers.


No. First of all I don't know where you're getting "a fifth of my income" from, but I literally have never seen a single case where anyone's health insurance was that expensive, ever. Secondly, it's important to remember that millions of Americans didn't - and again, in many cases COULDN'T - have health care beforehand. It's not all about you!



It would be stupid indeed if it were really that simple. But it isn't.

Look back in the thread. 20% is one fifth...

MY costs went up. I had what Obama called a Cadillac plan and Obamacare caused it to cost more and deliver less.

Obamacare dumped a ton of people OFF of healthcare even as it began to cover illegals and others.

It also caused many employees to convert some full time workers to part time workers to skate under the requirements.

Fuck those people, right? Progress is progress.

 

[gunthernehmen]

I see, I thought you were talking about the feds running a HC plan.

GOD no.

 

[YDB95]

Look back in the thread. 20% is one fifth...

You're missing my point. I know what 20% is, and I know I've never seen a single example of anyone's expenses really being that high under Obamacare.

Obamacare dumped a ton of people OFF of healthcare even as it began to cover illegals and others.

Obamacare does not cover illegals. If you can't get that right, I've got to wonder what else you're either missing or pulling out of your ear.

It also caused many employees to convert some full time workers to part time workers to skate under the requirements.

Obamacare did not cause that, greed did. I have zero sympathy for any business owner who thought that was a reasonable course of action.

Fuck those people, right? Progress is progress.

No, fuck those bosses who'd rather manipulate the system to avoid providing affordable health care.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Fuck those people, right? Progress is progress.

Anything for equity, until there are equal outcomes for all.

Of course there will always be some who are more equal than the others.

 

[BotanyBoy]

No, fuck those bosses who'd rather manipulate the system to avoid providing affordable health care.

It's not their responsibility to provide affordable health care.

 

[YDB95]

Anything for equity, until there are equal outcomes for all.

Of course there will always be some who are more equal than the others.

Cute, but you know which Animal Farm quote has been on my mind lately? It's the scene where the pigs convince all the other animals that they have to have all the apples and milk to themselves so they'll be strong and wise enough to make decisions that will benefit everyone. So the other animals agree to let them have all the apples and milk, and lo and behold, every decision the pigs make benefits the pigs alone. Which I find a perfect metaphor for "If we cut taxes on the rich, they'll invest that money and create jobs for everyone!"

But with health care, equality isn't really the goal. Some people will need more care than others, and the goal is to ensure that all can get what they need at a reasonable price.

It's not their responsibility to provide affordable health care.

Perhaps, but that still doesn't excuse them manipulating the system to avoid providing health care even at the cost of cutting their staff to part time. Or to frame the same issue in terms that maybe you would care about, abusing the system like that will ultimately lead to talented employees quitting as soon as they can find another job where they are treated better. Wouldn't the bosses be better off in the long run if they don't game the system and instead do their fair share to simply ensure that American workers have what workers in the rest of the civilised world have already had for decades?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Which I find a perfect metaphor for "If we cut taxes on the rich, they'll invest that money and create jobs for everyone!"

It's just as apt as "If you just give us more of your money we promise not to waste ALL of it this time! It's for the GREATER GOOD!! We promise this time!!" of the left.

But with health care, equality isn't really the goal. Some people will need more care than others, and the goal is to ensure that all can get what they need at a reasonable price.

Equality isn't ever the goal, equity is....equality is the sales pitch for equity.
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/thenewsenterprise.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/1/cc/1ccd6082-226c-11e9-ad10-57d482dc4895/5c4e0a9460b81.image.jpg

https://pics.me.me/thumb_equity-in-reality-equity-in-theory-social-justice-saw-that-51475244.png

Liberation (liberalism) is alt-right white nationalist Nazi bullshit for fascist.

Perhaps, but that still doesn't excuse them manipulating the system to avoid providing health care even at the cost of cutting their staff to part time.

They don't need an excuse for that, that is their job.

The cost was keeping their unskilled labor full time....not cutting their staff.

Or to frame the same issue in terms that maybe you would care about, abusing the system like that will ultimately lead to talented employees quitting as soon as they can find another job where they are treated better.

The talented employees aren't getting cut or quitting, they make money and have good insurance....they are pissed Democrats and their ACA shit show fucked them out of their good insurance.

You're talking about unskilled labor.

Wouldn't the bosses be better off in the long run if they don't game the system and instead do their fair share to simply ensure that American workers have what workers in the rest of the civilised world have already had for decades?

No...they don't owe any "fair share" to ensure that American workers have what the rest of the "civilized" world has had for decades.

Unskilled labor can take it's minimum wages and go fuck itself.

If one really cares about unskilled labor getting paid more or better benefits, one should support immigration getting choked back.

 

[gunthernehmen]

Obamacare does not cover illegals. If you can't get that right, I've got to wonder what else you're either missing or pulling out of your ear.

Actually, it literally does for some and many of the rest know how to play the system (with the active and knowing assistance of the people front ending the system) and get coverage anyway.

And as someone noted above, ANYBODY can walk into (or be carried into) any public hospital and receive life saving care.

 

[magicalmoments]

I see the term "alt-right" used above. I've also seen "Neo nazi" used in other threads.
I have googled these terms and when comes down to it the prefix seems to be meaningless.
Why are they used? I just don't see the sense to it.

 

[YDB95]

Actually, it literally does for some and many of the rest know how to play the system (with the active and knowing assistance of the people front ending the system) and get coverage anyway.

I'm sure you've got some examples of this at the ready. (Not to mention that yes, of course fraud exists; but that's no excuse for letting millions of Americans live in fear of bankruptcy due to an illness.)

And as someone noted above, ANYBODY can walk into (or be carried into) any public hospital and receive life saving care.

And as I already said, who ultimately foots the bill for that if the patient can't pay? The taxpayers do.

Unskilled labor can take it's minimum wages and go fuck itself.

There is a lot I could say to refute the other points you made here - mostly that they're based on unfounded assumptions - but really, I got to that line and I don't see the point in trying to have any sort of dialogue with someone who has that attitude. I WILL say this is a perfect example of why there's never been any bipartisan consensus on health care reform: fundamentally, our side believes it's a basic right and your side...well, you said it more eloquently than I could.

Why are they used? I just don't see the sense to it.

It's easier than trying to defeat the other person's argument on its merits?

 

[BotanyBoy]

There is a lot I could say to refute the other points you made here - mostly that they're based on unfounded assumptions - but really, I got to that line and I don't see the point in trying to have any sort of dialogue with someone who has that attitude.

No they're not, which is why you won't.

The attitude that people should be allowed to freely exchange goods and services??

Yes...that's the American way.

Forcing equity at the end of a gun like you and the other "progressives" support is anti-American.

I WILL say this is a perfect example of why there's never been any bipartisan consensus on health care reform: fundamentally, our side believes it's a basic right and your side...well, you said it more eloquently than I could.

You think you have a right to other peoples labor/goods/services by force.

I do not, because I love liberty and freedom from that kind of anti-American oppression.

 

[gunthernehmen]

It's a darned good thing for the socialists among us that they did not live a few hundred years ago.

That was a time when you fended for yourself or you died.

Feel lucky that you have the luxury of sitting comfortably in Mom's basement, using the neighbor's unsecured wifi to blather about how more stuff should be free for you.

 

[dan_c00000]

MY costs went up. I had what Obama called a Cadillac plan and Obamacare caused it to cost more and deliver less.

Obamacare dumped a ton of people OFF of healthcare even as it began to cover illegals and others.

It also caused many employees to convert some full time workers to part time workers to skate under the requirements.

I'm guessing you don't have proof of any of this. Not a shock. But we do have proof that thanks to your hero Trump the Orange Nazi people are getting suckered into shitty health plans not to mention all the other changes Trump implemented that made Obamcare worse.

Hey bot your racist alt got busted lying. You better come pick it up before it gets banned like dawn.

 

[DawnONight]

No. I have a son-in-law who is involved with US healthcare and is convinced our flawed NHS is far superior.

Well... alright, then....

If your son-in-law says so, then it must be true.

 

[oggbashan]

Well... alright, then....

If your son-in-law says so, then it must be true.

I don't necessarily agree with him but he does charity procedures, without pay, in the US that would be paid for by the NHS in the UK.

 

[gunthernehmen]

But we do have proof that thanks to your hero Trump the Orange Nazi people are getting suckered into shitty health plans

Trumpcare is the claim now?

 

[gunthernehmen]

I don't necessarily agree with him but he does charity procedures, without pay, in the US that would be paid for by the NHS in the UK.

Most doctors here do quite a lot of charity work. Sounds like your son is one of them. Some here and a lot in developing countries that have NO healthcare.

 

[oggbashan]

Most doctors here do quite a lot of charity work. Sounds like your son is one of them. Some here and a lot in developing countries that have NO healthcare.

He, and my MD daughter, do a lot in Romania, through the British Council.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I don't necessarily agree with him but he does charity procedures, without pay, in the US that would be paid for by the NHS in the UK.

He's not wrong, in some ways it is superior, like getting most folks taken care of.

The question is however, is it the US governments job to protect the rights and liberty of it's individual citizens or is it the US governments job to ensure more equal outcomes for all??

Gotta pick one, can't have both at the same time....and that's the ideological core of the cold civil war we are in now.

A large and growing group in the USA thinks it's the federal governments primary responsibility to the US people is to provide social and economic equity at any cost.

The rest of us think it's the governments primary responsibility to secure the rights and liberty of the people so that they may pursue their individual happiness.

 

[oggbashan]

...

A large and growing group in the USA thinks it's the federal governments primary responsibility to the US people is to provide social and economic equity at any cost.

The rest of us think it's the governments primary responsibility to secure the rights and liberty of the people so that they may pursue their individual happiness.

"At any cost?" - that is where I have difficulty. The US spend on healthcare is insane NOW compared with almost any developed country that has a universal system of heathcare. US citizens are being ripped off by insurance companies, big pharma and ambulance-chasing lawyers

 

[muycurioso]

tort reform is off limits to the Democrats

"At any cost?" - that is where I have difficulty. The US spend on healthcare is insane NOW compared with almost any developed country that has a universal system of heathcare. US citizens are being ripped off by insurance companies, big pharma and ambulance-chasing lawyers

I agree, to many lawsuits. Some are legit, but most are just greedy lawyers/people