The Reality of Socialized Medicine

[Fuzzy1975]

I truly want to thank you for taking time to post this thread. It illustrates the horror that touches every aspect of life when people mindlessly turn over their lives and freedoms to socialist rulers. With all the silly fluff that ends up being posted here on Literotica I deeply appreciate people like you that post something this meaningful.

So you are not even going to research out what is posted?

We all know each media outlet put's their own spin on issues. The only real way to determine spin from fact is to read as much media reporting on the " story", and link the common elements together, which normally will generate the most "truth" which can be learned from reporting. In this case I might suggest you look to UK based media, since all the facts are not in play here. Just quotes out of context.

There is a reason legal rulings are long, you cannot take a snippet and expect it to cover the whole "legal ruling".

 

[oggbashan]

1. In the UK the NHS is free BUT you can have low cost top-up health insurance to cover those items that have a long waiting list in the NHS like hip replacements.

2. Or, you can buy full health insurance at a much lower cost than in the US. But the NHS will always be quicker and better for accident trauma or sudden illness such as a heart attack or stroke.

3. Or, if there is an NHS waiting list you can pay for a private operation or procedure yourself - generally at a reasonable cost from a range of competing suppliers.

I have 1 and have used it and also used 3.

The problem with the NHS is that because it is free, people will use it for minor health problems that before the NHS they would have ignored or gone to a chemist to buy over-the-counter medications. The demand is unlimited but the supply is finite.

The advantage is that no one becomes bankrupt because they have a health problem.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

No I'm suggesting a socialized form of HC is government oppression.

You need to define "socialized". The Canadian Health Care system is pretty socialized, but our Government is not oppressing us.

As you said, it's not free....someone is getting fucked, that action of the government fucking someone out of their money, their pursuit of happiness, to pay for someone else's responsibilities?? Is government oppression.

No one is getting 'fucked out of their money'. What we do is agree to share the cost of Health Care across the tax base. If I raise the tax on a bottle of beer to 10 cents, and use that revenue to balance out the cost of 10 cents of health care, who is getting "fucked"? you have the choice not to buy that beer, correct?

If some doctor wants to voluntarily give their goods and services away to the needy (free HC) there is nothing oppressive about that.

The doctors have a contract on "fee for service", in each province that they work. It is made between the Provincial Government and the relevant Provincial Medical Association of Doctors. The contract is negotiated on a set term of time. No one gives away anything for free.

Lot's of Americans however do.

Me more so than you Canadians.

I always enjoy a debate I guess,( as long as the debate does not digress to personal attacks, at that point it is no longer a debate) I have idiotic tendencies.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You need to define "socialized". The Canadian Health Care system is pretty socialized, but our Government is not oppressing us.

Government control and administration over the means of production and distribution of goods and services.

No one is getting 'fucked out of their money'. What we do is agree to share the cost of Health Care across the tax base.

If nobody was getting fucked out of their money everyone would pay for their own shit.

As it stands your government puts a gun to the heads of your rich and forces them to provide for your poor....getting fucked out of their money.

The doctors have a contract on "fee for service", in each province that they work. It is made between the Provincial Government and the relevant Provincial Medical Association of Doctors. The contract is negotiated on a set term of time. No one gives away anything for free.

And if you don't want to deal with the state can you just go hire the best doctor in your area?

Can you write a check and get whatever treatment or operation you need??

Or are you and your doctor forced to work through the state and all it's bureaucratic bullshit?

I always enjoy a debate I guess,( as long as the debate does not digress to personal attacks, at that point it is no longer a debate) I have idiotic tendencies.

Indeed.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Government control and administration over the means of production and distribution of goods and services.



If nobody was getting fucked out of their money everyone would pay for their own shit.

Do you own a car? Pay for your own road!! That is what we gain by living in a society. How about your municipal supplied drinking water? Go dig your own well!! that is what we gain by living in a society. Need the police!! Go pay for your own police!!
That is what we gain by living in a society. Need a hospital?? Build your own!! That is what we gain by living in a society. Need a Doctor, go pay and educate and equip your own!! yada yada yada.

You cannot have your cake and expect to eat it. Society is about Society, not the individual. Yes you can have a legal system that base's it's laws on the rights and freedoms of individuals, but that is a frame work within the basic social contract. Not something outside that can be based upon individuals only. After that we all agree to share in the costs of society.

as it stands your government puts a gun to the heads of your rich and forces them to provide for your poor....getting fucked out of their money.

This is called a functioning society, want something else roll back the clock to medieval times. See if you would be happy living there. Even if you had today's amenities. There was a reason the Magna Carter was written. Prior to that, what you described, was society!!

And if you don't want to deal with the ( province)can you just go hire the best doctor in your area?

Who is the best doctor? In my area i have no idea?

Can you write a check and get whatever treatment or operation you need??

Sure you can just go to any country and pay, but not here.

Or are you and your doctor forced to work through the state and all it's bureaucratic bullshit?

What BS. you have a family doctor, you go see him/her. If you need a referral for other medical services, you get one. No BS. Yes there can be a wait time, if your family doctor rates your need as non life threatening. If it is life threatening, ( as was my brother, who saw the doc, and got cancer treatment the same day) you get move to expedited care.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Do you own a car? Pay for your own road!! That is what we gain by living in a society. How about your municipal supplied drinking water? Go dig your own well!! that is what we gain by living in a society. Need the police!! Go pay for your own police!!
That is what we gain by living in a society. Need a hospital?? Build your own!! That is what we gain by living in a society. Need a Doctor, go pay and educate and equip your own!! yada yada yada.

All false equivalency.

I do pay for the public roads I use, that doesn't mean I can't drive it on my private roads which I'm allowed to build and have.

Users of municipal supplied water pay for their water. They are not prevented from obtaining their water elsewhere.

Police are a direct function of government, I do pay for them, and nothing about that prevents me from hiring private security services.

I do pay for a hospital/doctor when I give them money in return for their goods and services....no need for the government to be involved.

You cannot have your cake and expect to eat it. Society is about Society, not the individual. Yes you can have a legal system that base's it's laws on the rights and freedoms of individuals, but that is a frame work within the basic social contract. Not something outside that can be based upon individuals only. After that we all agree to share in the costs of society.

Maybe your society, not mine.

This is called a functioning society, want something else roll back the clock to medieval times. See if you would be happy living there. Even if you had today's amenities. There was a reason the Magna Carter was written. Prior to that, what you described, was society!!

No it wasn't...there was nothing liberal about monarchies which resemble a socialist or fascistic dictatorship more than anything that might be considered a liberal society.

Don't need totalitarian state control over everything to have a functioning society....sorry, it's just not true.

The USA's entire existence is a testament to that.

Sure you can just go to any country and pay, but not here.

See there's that lack of freedom.

I like being able to go down and see the doctor of my choice when I want.

What BS. you have a family doctor, you go see him/her. If you need a referral for other medical services, you get one. No BS. Yes there can be a wait time

That BS.

I don't need referrals or to wait...because my HC is better.

 

[where_is_RUTH]

1. In the UK the NHS is free BUT you can have low cost top-up health insurance to cover those items that have a long waiting list in the NHS like hip replacements.

2. Or, you can buy full health insurance at a much lower cost than in the US. But the NHS will always be quicker and better for accident trauma or sudden illness such as a heart attack or stroke.

3. Or, if there is an NHS waiting list you can pay for a private operation or procedure yourself - generally at a reasonable cost from a range of competing suppliers.

I have 1 and have used it and also used 3.

The problem with the NHS is that because it is free, people will use it for minor health problems that before the NHS they would have ignored or gone to a chemist to buy over-the-counter medications. The demand is unlimited but the supply is finite.

The advantage is that no one becomes bankrupt because they have a health problem.

I'm not quite sure why Dawn wishes to resurrect this thread.
Nor do I wish to detract from the good points you make Me Ogg.

But firstly, the NHS's current problems are the recent mismanagement (deliberately underfunded) by the Tory's (I can supply figures)

And the NHS is not free, it's paid for by everyone paying their taxes!

The simple truth in America is instead of you funding your health care through taxation, you do it through insurance.
1) so insurance companies do very well in the USA (thank you very much$)
2) if you have an acceptable level of income you'll generally be ok
3) if you have an acceptable level of healthiness to start off with (to be able to work, to pay your insurance) you'll generally be ok.

If not, you'll be left behind!

(Mr Ogg)
In the UK there is NO emergency provision of medicine via private health care/insurance. M.I. (heart attack) CVA (strokes) and trauma are all dealt with by the NHS.

 

[magicalmoments]

There is a lot of ignorance spouted by those who oppose a universal public health system, especially from those who have never actually experienced living in a society which has one.

I live in a country that operates a universal Public Health Service and has done since 1935.

We also have a thriving free market private health service that operates alongside it. People can chose which one they use and can switch between the two services at will. It is all about freedom of choice.

Most countries that operate a universal public health system also have a private system as well.

You can go to a private hospital and pay a few thousand dollars to have your appendix out or you can go to a public hosptital and have it done for free. The quality and standard of service between the two would be indistinguishable, the same doctor might perform the surgery at both institutions.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

All false equivalency.

Sorry but i have to stop you right there.

It is not a false equivalency. You said each person should pay for their own shit. It is up there a couple post's back in black and white for all to read.

Well you just agreed to subsides roads, through your tax dollars, ( and to save space I am not going through the rest of your list). Why? well I assume you drive and don't want to pay more than you have to for roads?
.
How about those who do not drive, given the thought path you have, they have the right to withhold their tax dollars towards roads, and you have no right to complain if they withheld those dollars, and you would just have to pay more...

The only issue I see here, ( and I am not against the issue) is you are complaining your tax's are too high. You do not want to subsidise anyone who, can't afford the service you already pay for with your hard earned tax dollars. If we didn't offer these social programs we could have lower taxes you say. There are already too many programs out there wasting our tax dollars on... it's a long list.

I am not implying your wrong, but, if you are saying you are against authoritarian governments, as your cry, then stick to that. Don't waffle back and forth. Picking which ever terms agree to make a point.

The single biggest cry and hue I hear about Health Care reform in the US is an increased cost in affordability if it changed to single payer. Period end of story.

A whole list of 'others come in after this' and the site does not have enough storage for me to list them all...


The Canadian system is not the best in the world, I freely admit that, however neither is yours. Sorry, don't like it, too bad it is a fact. Freely available to find all over the internet. You may like how your health care systems operates, delivers service, doctor efficiencies etc, but at the end of the day neither of our system provide the best health care in the world. Graded and compared to a set standard, we are basically equal. Cost wise our system is slightly cheaper based upon per capita costing.

Last the United States had a drop in it's life expectancy, in the last WHO report released, ( 3 years in a row now) the only G7 country to do so. If I lived in the US, I would surely want to know THE why of it. Maybe toss out some of the do nothing politicians from both parties, and elect someone to actually deal with the issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

tied for 37th now with Albainia...

 

[Fuzzy1975]

There is a lot of ignorance spouted by those who oppose a universal public health system, especially from those who have never actually experienced living in a society which has one.

I live in a country that operates a universal Public Health Service and has done since 1935.

We also have a thriving free market private health service that operates alongside it. People can chose which one they use and can switch between the two services at will. It is all about freedom of choice.

Most countries that operate a universal public health system also have a private system as well.

You can go to a private hospital and pay a few thousand dollars to have your appendix out or you can go to a public hosptital and have it done for free. The quality and standard of service between the two would be indistinguishable, the same doctor might perform the surgery at both institutions.

Question: so if you had a political party come and say they were going to dismantle your system, for say the US version, what do you say think election outcome would be??

I know the Canadian answer to this question...

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Maybe your society, not mine.



No it wasn't...there was nothing liberal about monarchies which resemble a socialist or fascistic dictatorship more than anything that might be considered a liberal society.

Your correct, which is why the Magna Carter came about, and King John was forced to sign it. That was the beginning of the "liberal society". Note what I wrote up there, not what you seem to think I wrote.

Sure a lot has changed since then, and the USA with it's formation, was also a huge part of today's modern societies.

However your view of what a "liberal society" is, when I look at your opinions, seem to forget that. Your view of what is meant by a liberal society, and mine can be different. Governments and countries can be different, yet both offer a "liberal society" since that "liberalism" is defined by each country and that countries citizens, not just one person's view on what it means.

I have guns,( surprised? { I have a bunch, love them,}and even when our government made us register them, they never tried to take them away, and when after a decade or so of running the program, and looking at the wasted tax dollars, and how that money never help prevent a gun related death, the government killed the registry, it never was a problem for owners)

I have free speech, freedom of the press, I have the right to my religion, or not to be religious. I have access to health care, social services,employment,uncensored access to information. Our government cannot discriminate against any persons language religion race creed or sexual orientation. We have our Charter of Rights and Freedoms, just like you have one. Which protects those rights through a robust legal system. We are not any closer to Communism than the US.

If you feel or think or know you live in a better country, or the best country in the world, that is a Freedom given to you, by your founding fathers. You have already agreed that your documents are living, which means "liberalism" is also living and not static and defined by your countries citizens.

 

[Bray123]

I'm not quite sure why Dawn wishes to resurrect this thread.
Nor do I wish to detract from the good points you make Me Ogg.

But firstly, the NHS's current problems are the recent mismanagement (deliberately underfunded) by the Tory's (I can supply figures)

And the NHS is not free, it's paid for by everyone paying their taxes!

The simple truth in America is instead of you funding your health care through taxation, you do it through insurance.
1) so insurance companies do very well in the USA (thank you very much$)
2) if you have an acceptable level of income you'll generally be ok
3) if you have an acceptable level of healthiness to start off with (to be able to work, to pay your insurance) you'll generally be ok.

If not, you'll be left behind!

(Mr Ogg)
In the UK there is NO emergency provision of medicine via private health care/insurance. M.I. (heart attack) CVA (strokes) and trauma are all dealt with by the NHS.

Point of order.
Of course you can go 'private' in the UK if you're rich enough. Do you think the Queen will queue up in an NHS A&E unit if she has a stroke? There are some private hospitals which are capable of handling such issues - not many as most people will go to the NHS for emergencies and there's not the volume + profit to sustain many units.
Also, whether it's the Tories or Labour which have underfunded the NHS the most is up for debate. Either way, demand always outstrips supply but no-one goes bankrupt in the UK because of diabetes or dementia.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Sorry but i have to stop you right there.

It is not a false equivalency. You said each person should pay for their own shit. It is up there a couple post's back in black and white for all to read.

It is, because public services are NOT wealth redistribution programs.

They aren't confiscation of private property, or a takeover of an entire industry/market for the sake of ensuring equal outcomes in life.

They aren't even mandatory taxes......totally voluntary.

And what I said was if someone wasn't getting fucked everyone would be paying for their own shit.

Well you just agreed to subsides roads, through your tax dollars. Why? well I assume you drive and don't want to pay more than you have to for roads?

No I didn't.

I pay taxes directly when I pay for the licence to use public roads, I give the state a few hundred bucks, they give me some stickers to put on my car that say I paid my fees for using public roads.

Which I don't have to do, I can wheel my car around on my own private roads or someone elses and I don't have give the government anything but the finger.

How about those who do not drive, given the thought path you have, they have the right to withhold their tax dollars towards roads, and you have no right to complain if they withheld those dollars, and you would just have to pay more...

100%....people who do not drive on or use public roads, shouldn't have to pay for them.

The only issue I see here, ( and I am not against the issue) is you are complaining your tax's are too high. You do not want to subsidise anyone who, can't afford the service you already pay for with your hard earned tax dollars.

It's not even that, I just wanted you to recognize that's what it was and quit pretending nobody is getting fucked, because in every wealth redistribution scheme someone most certainly is getting fucked.

My issue with public HC isn't the high taxes, it's that it's being pushed to be done in an illiberal way at a federal level.....2 anti-American points, that means I can't support it.

There are already too many programs out there wasting our tax dollars on... it's a long list.

Not an argument for a totalitarian takeover of our HC system by the federal government as far as I'm concerned.

The Canadian system is not the best in the world, I freely admit that, however neither is yours. Sorry, don't like it, too bad it is a fact.

It is, but I'm not the one trying to convince you to adopt my system just because everyone else is doing it.

However your view of what a "liberal society" is, when I look at your opinions, seem to forget that. Your view of what is meant by a liberal society, and mine can be different. Governments and countries can be different, yet both offer a "liberal society" since that "liberalism" is defined by each country and that countries citizens, not just one person's view on what it means.

No I don't.

Also no it really can't. What you're saying here is that there is no definition of "liberalism" and it means whatever anyone says it means, making it essentially a meaningless word and that's just not true.

I have guns,( surprised? { I have a bunch, love them,}and even when our government made us register them, they never tried to take them away, and when after a decade or so of running the program, and looking at the wasted tax dollars, and how that money never help prevent a gun related death, the government killed the registry, it never was a problem for owners)

Good for you guys, you should let the American left know what a failure that was they seem to think it would be a great idea.

They also finally admitted that they absolutely do want to come and take them.

I have free speech,

You have hate speech laws.....I don't consider that free speech.

Free speech means free to be an asshole.

We are not any closer to Communism than the US.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

If you feel or think or know you live in a better country, or the best country in the world, that is a Freedom given to you, by your founding fathers. You have already agreed that your documents are living, which means "liberalism" is also living and not static and defined by your countries citizens.

No...it's not, liberalism is not defined by my countries citizens.

It's defined by the concepts and philosophy of liberalism.

Liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/liberalism

Liberalism doesn't become the abolishment of private property, civil rights and redistribution of wealth by the state just because a bunch of radical lefties get together and call themselves liberals.

 

[gunthernehmen]

Which I don't have to do, I can wheel my car around on my own private roads or someone elses and I don't have give the government anything but the finger.

100%....people who do not drive on or use public roads, shouldn't have to pay for them.

In some states you have to register ATVs that never, EVER leave your own property.

 

[PrincepsCyberius]

Sixty-two percent of swing voters say 'Medicare for all' is a 'bad idea'.

 

[badbabysitter]

Why is it always the people that rail against the NHS and the CMP....have no idea how it actually works?

 

[gunthernehmen]

Why is it always the people that advocate socialism and bigger government....have no idea how it actually works?

 

[magicalmoments]

Question: so if you had a political party come and say they were going to dismantle your system, for say the US version, what do you say think election outcome would be??

I know the Canadian answer to this question...

Our NZ national party proposed it here back in the 1990's and began implementing it by applying small nominal charges for surgeries. The people rebelled, refused to pay the fees and they were voted out at the next election. They've never suggested it tried it since.

 

[oggbashan]

Question: so if you had a political party come and say they were going to dismantle your system, for say the US version, what do you say think election outcome would be??

I know the Canadian answer to this question...

In the UK any such proposal would mean ALL their candidates would lose their deposit and come last - probably with fewer votes than the Official Raving Loony Party.

 

[DawnONight]

P. Klein, Sixty-two percent of swing voters say 'Medicare for all' is a 'bad idea', Washington Examiner (Nov. 7, 2019).

 

[icanhelp1]

Question: so if you had a political party come and say they were going to dismantle your system, for say the US version, what do you say think election outcome would be??

I know the Canadian answer to this question...

I think you're missing out on a couple points. We're 22 trillion dollars in debt, why? because politicians can't make tough decisions or balance a budget ( both parties ). SS and the VA are examples of government run entities that are poorly managed. Poor customer service and care in both. Those departments are two of our largest organizations and both have demonstrated that government cannot efficiently manage anything. They are incapable of evaluating employee performance and separating the wheat from the chaff whereas in private companies if you don't perform you're history ( efficiency ), once on the government dole, they are there for life. I believe, in general, people would rather take their chances with private HC then let unabated government intrusion.

Once a government program is created you can't get rid of it, that's just the way our politics works. Politicians bring home the bacon and fight tooth and nail to keep it. One reason why I support term limits. We have a system where people vote on the one side and then we have the other side where politicians spend most of their time campaigning. Everyone likes their local politician but for the most part the synergies don't exist or don't work. Every government program is loaded with waste fraud and abuse and are incapable of policing up after themselves. Their incapable of condensing redundant programs into one and eliminating waste and saving taxpayers money.

It would be more effective to provide safety net type healthcare fixes for the less fortunate and create a high risk pool for pre-existing conditions and continue to march with what we have. There are millions pushing for some version of NHC and I'm afraid if that happens our economy bellies up, we become insolvent as a country and could land us in a depression where everyone loses. I believe medical innovations suffers also. Government regulating medical personnel wages will lead to an exitus of potential medical practitioners to other career field unless something is done with the education cost.

Other countrie that have NHC, if you're satisfied with what you have GREAT! we don't hold that against you. I think that had we employed a NHC system some 60 years ago it could have been different and possibly successful but based on the abuse in our social security program, I'm not so sure.

 

[BotanyBoy]

In some states you have to register ATVs that never, EVER leave your own property.

Probably blue states, and even then it's probably not anywhere near the same price as a road vehicle.

And rarely if ever enforced.

Why is it always the people that rail against the NHS and the CMP....have no idea how it actually works?

Care to point out where people have been wrong or you just blowing hot air as usual??

Why is it always the people that advocate socialism and bigger government....have no idea how it actually works?

Seriously....BBS is one of the least self aware of the leftist cows on the board and for some reason thinks the USA is founded on Marxist principals and we should all be striving to achieve the communist utopia.

 

[icanhelp1]

I think you're missing out on a couple points. We're 22 trillion dollars in debt, why? because politicians can't make tough decisions or balance a budget ( both parties ). SS and the VA are examples of government run entities that are poorly managed. Poor customer service and care in both. Those departments are two of our largest organizations and both have demonstrated that government cannot efficiently manage anything. They are incapable of evaluating employee performance and separating the wheat from the chaff whereas in private companies if you don't perform you're history ( efficiency ), once on the government dole, they are there for life. I believe, in general, people would rather take their chances with private HC then let unabated government intrusion.

Once a government program is created you can't get rid of it, that's just the way our politics works. Politicians bring home the bacon and fight tooth and nail to keep it. One reason why I support term limits. We have a system where people vote on the one side and then we have the other side where politicians spend most of their time campaigning. Everyone likes their local politician but for the most part the synergies don't exist or don't work. Every government program is loaded with waste fraud and abuse and are incapable of policing up after themselves. Their incapable of condensing redundant programs into one and eliminating waste and saving taxpayers money.

It would be more effective to provide safety net type healthcare fixes for the less fortunate and create a high risk pool for pre-existing conditions and continue to march with what we have. There are millions pushing for some version of NHC and I'm afraid if that happens our economy bellies up, we become insolvent as a country and could land us in a depression where everyone loses. I believe medical innovations suffers also. Government regulating medical personnel wages will lead to an exitus of potential medical practitioners to other career field unless something is done with the education cost.

Other countrie that have NHC, if you're satisfied with what you have GREAT! we don't hold that against you. I think that had we employed a NHC system some 60 years ago it could have been different and possibly successful but based on the abuse in our social security program, I'm not so sure.

I must add that the VA has started firing for poor performance.

 

[gunthernehmen]

I must add that the VA has started firing for poor performance.

Too little, too late.

You can see in the VA and the free healthcare programs many (if not all) states operate just how well a nationalized healthcare system would operate.

You need that new knee or arm, in order to be capable of working and supporting yourself? No problem. We'll put you on the list and get you right as rain in a few years. Not to worry, when you lose your house you'll also qualify for housing and food stamps.

 

[jomar]

Hello Russian bot!