Pillow Talk (SRP Open Discussion)

[Obuzeti]

As I appear to have sparked a discussion in the Profile thread that really shouldn't continue there, I'll expound upon it here to my satisfaction. To be fair, I only started diverging from the topic in thread because some of the participants had PMs disabled (which is a choice I respect), and such a genuine plea for answers went out that I thought it shouldn't be ignore. This is likewise the reason I'm posting this in a general thread instead of bothering people to change their PM settings - Lord knows that privacy and peace of mind are things that are easy to let go, and difficult to reclaim.

Now, that said - to what answers I can give. While I am giving specific answers here, I welcome anyone that just wants to talk or shoot the shit, because frankly RP in general tends strongly towards insular little communities of two or three that don't talk to anyone else outside The Circle, due to the nature of the PM and thread system.

I say this with the prescient understanding that this is probably going to derail horribly into a traincrash, but hopefully I can muster something of merit in the meantime. To the answers!

I think Cliff is right that We shouldn't continue chatting in this thread. I am thinking about starting a new thread for discussions at SRP (or if anybody likes to do that please go ahead ). I am especially curious about
Obuzeti's statement : "no one wants to talk frankly about sex, or be friends with the people they're writing porn with."

Is it Ok to quote you for a discussion at SRP Obuzeti ?

Sexual roleplay is, at the realistic level, a series of one-night stands for the average writer. You pick someone up in Seeking or from PM, trade a handful of messages negotiating what it is you both want, and pitch out something generally agreeable. You write your way through one or two pages, and eventually schedule constraints or disagreements on tone and kink or plain disinterest split you up from that temporary partner.

Then you sit around and wonder what you did wrong, or could have done better, or could have offered.

Or you're the person that backed off, because you stopped caring or because you got too busy and didn't have the energy to invest in it anymore, or because your appetite got filled and your done with it for the moment. Maybe even you found something about the other person that alarmed you or filled you with personal distaste, and the vast majority of us respond by just backing off silently in that case rather than pick a fight. Whatever.

This is the searching phase of roleplay and it's where about 80% of the average roleplayer's time is spent, if I had to ballpark it, because it's very easy to care too much about your own fantasy and not enough about the other person's, or even the other person themself. There's a fine line to tread between self-satisfaction and being solicitous, and to be honest I'm not erudite enough to define that boundary in a majority of cases. It's a border that moves.

I will, however, say that I have had several friends that I have roleplayed with, and this makes the process tremendously easier because wanting to talk to the other person, and listen to them, makes anything you do with them a more rewarding pursuit in general.

Mind you, this is not a romantic attachment, which is a topic all its own and fabulously thorny amid. It's merely - finding someone whose writing, and thoughts, you find worth your time.

Lastly, Rosa, you are free to quote me if I manage to blurt out something intelligible in the middle of the word salad my brain frequently orders in the place of reasonable discourse.

 

[TheWorldBuilder]

Sexual roleplay is, at the realistic level, a series of one-night stands for the average writer. You pick someone up in Seeking or from PM, trade a handful of messages negotiating what it is you both want, and pitch out something generally agreeable. You write your way through one or two pages, and eventually schedule constraints or disagreements on tone and kink or plain disinterest split you up from that temporary partner.

Then you sit around and wonder what you did wrong, or could have done better, or could have offered.

Or you're the person that backed off, because you stopped caring or because you got too busy and didn't have the energy to invest in it anymore, or because your appetite got filled and your done with it for the moment. Maybe even you found something about the other person that alarmed you or filled you with personal distaste, and the vast majority of us respond by just backing off silently in that case rather than pick a fight.

I will, however, say that I have had several friends that I have roleplayed with, and this makes the process tremendously easier because wanting to talk to the other person, and listen to them, makes anything you do with them a more rewarding pursuit in general.

Mind you, this is not a romantic attachment, which is a topic all its own and fabulously thorny amid. It's merely - finding someone whose writing, and thoughts, you find worth your time.

I'm relatively new to SRP, but already I can emphasise with many of your concerns, Obuzeti.

I've had difficulties with timezones; with including backround material in PMs, only to see the plot shoot off at speed in a direction I wanted to hold in suspense for a while; with trying to keep a scene flowing without taking control of my partner's character; but - most of all - with feedback.

Online-only communication is even worse than the telephone. In a RL conversation, or sexual encounter, there are a multitude of feedback mechanisms which the socially-conscious learn to adopt. Expressions, vocalisations, touch (or physical separation) all play a part. Even in a darkened room, or on the 'phone, tone of voice and non-linguistic sounds will reveal mood changes. Here, all we have is the written word. It is too easy for differences in cultural background (even within a single country), education or belief to affect those subtle nuances which we rely on outside our VL. Even that expression has three different written forms that I know of, there may be more: VirtualLife, OnlineLife, Second or 2ndLife....

My current co-author has told me that I am "good". If she means that in a theological sense, she might have a few surprises as our plot unfolds. I hope that her actual sentiment is that I'm intelligent, literate and have spent time and effort developing a shared framework with her, that outlines a common purpose whilst allowing the flexibilty for our characters to react and grow.

There still isn't enough feedback.

She is happy to share countless PMs and I have told her that I need that because I can't see her eyes or hear her voice. So far, she hasn't used the eMail address I sent her. In a way I understand that. Although - as far as I'm aware - we're both single and there's 200 miles between us, is that an intimacy too far (although it would mean we could receive faster contact without having to come here).

I think your comparison with sexual encounters themselves is apt. From the initial meeting, we need to establish a common purpose. If that is comfortable, perhaps a bond of some sort but, for our true selves to be revealed, we need a deeper commitment to our partner and our shared endeavours.

I have never had a one night stand and I don't think I could write well without understanding the lady who writes with me. My only experience with multi-author and male collaborations has been in frivolous pieces where there is an aspect of light banter and comedy in the plot. I can contribute because the scenarios are all time-honoured SF clichés, but they're not my best work.

To sum up: I need an attachment, to her character and my own, and I need feedback.

If those thoughts reflect, or widely differ, from your (in the sense of 'everyone reading') own then perhaps you'd like to share your experience?

 

[Cliffhere4fun]

I have found that with some co-writers or role players, they crave and use pm or emails to guide the action. And others who after setting up the scenes want not further communication outside the writing. Those make me feel like I am walking a tight rope.

I have always appreciated my fellow writers, whether we couldn't work together or worked a while. My biggest pet peeve is when they just stop the action or line of communication. I get life happens and try to be a supportive "Literotica friend" but if it isn't working, just tell me and I wont wonder about if you are doing ok. (Ok, maybe I get attached to my friends here more than they to me)

 

[Rosa2019]

Obuzeti,
I am glad you started this thread. Thank you for your thoughtful explanation.

I'm utterly new to RP. Only have one thread on ORP. Never been on SRP. Just dabbling. Literally 'playing'. No ambition or anything.

You talked about backing off... Of course, it's easy to understand why people back off. I have no question about that.

Looks like your statement “ this is not a romantic attachment” responds to my question on “ no one wants to be friends with the people they're writing porn with.". Well, a romantic attachment is much further up from being friends ( “which is a topic all its own” later).....I thought it would be essential to communicate outside RP in order to make it work. one-night stands ? Most current SRP threads have been running longer than that. I would have problem having my passion and energy sustained without sincere friend quality communications with my co-players.

I don't see an explanation for “no one wants to talk frankly about sex”.
Thank you again for your being so open.

 

[Obuzeti]

I'm relatively new to SRP, but already I can emphasise with many of your concerns, Obuzeti.

I've had difficulties with timezones; with including backround material in PMs, only to see the plot shoot off at speed in a direction I wanted to hold in suspense for a while; with trying to keep a scene flowing without taking control of my partner's character; but - most of all - with feedback.

Online-only communication is even worse than the telephone. In a RL conversation, or sexual encounter, there are a multitude of feedback mechanisms which the socially-conscious learn to adopt. Expressions, vocalisations, touch (or physical separation) all play a part. Even in a darkened room, or on the 'phone, tone of voice and non-linguistic sounds will reveal mood changes. Here, all we have is the written word. It is too easy for differences in cultural background (even within a single country), education or belief to affect those subtle nuances which we rely on outside our VL. Even that expression has three different written forms that I know of, there may be more: VirtualLife, OnlineLife, Second or 2ndLife....

My current co-author has told me that I am "good". If she means that in a theological sense, she might have a few surprises as our plot unfolds. I hope that her actual sentiment is that I'm intelligent, literate and have spent time and effort developing a shared framework with her, that outlines a common purpose whilst allowing the flexibilty for our characters to react and grow.

There still isn't enough feedback.

She is happy to share countless PMs and I have told her that I need that because I can't see her eyes or hear her voice. So far, she hasn't used the eMail address I sent her. In a way I understand that. Although - as far as I'm aware - we're both single and there's 200 miles between us, is that an intimacy too far (although it would mean we could receive faster contact without having to come here).

I think your comparison with sexual encounters themselves is apt. From the initial meeting, we need to establish a common purpose. If that is comfortable, perhaps a bond of some sort but, for our true selves to be revealed, we need a deeper commitment to our partner and our shared endeavours.

I have never had a one night stand and I don't think I could write well without understanding the lady who writes with me. My only experience with multi-author and male collaborations has been in frivolous pieces where there is an aspect of light banter and comedy in the plot. I can contribute because the scenarios are all time-honoured SF clichés, but they're not my best work.

To sum up: I need an attachment, to her character and my own, and I need feedback.

If those thoughts reflect, or widely differ, from your (in the sense of 'everyone reading') own then perhaps you'd like to share your experience?

I would bet money that you set off warning sirens in her head. Let me note something: regardless of your partner's relationship status or physical location or position as a writing partner, they don't owe you anything. This is a natural outreach of something I wrote earlier - your (and thus their) personal safety, and peace of mind, are paramount. If your partner doesn't want to contact you outside of Lit-E, stop pushing.

Don't confuse SRP with the Personals, and your partners will be more responsive. If you don't have that confusion, then I apologize for the presumption, but that really does sound like part of the problem; when I say friends, I don't mean "people I'm eyeing for a potential future relationship". I mean people who, for whatever reason, find that my particular brand of off-putting honesty and humor something that improves the quality of a terrible day.

I say this knowing what kind of struggle it's going to be for most guys reading, because our hindbrains want to Go For It any time we talk to a woman. The vast majority of men do not have an off switch for the voice in the back of their head shouting "Do it! Come on! Do it!"

But I'm getting off topic.

~*~

I'm one of the lucky ones. I picked up a long-term partner a good while ago, and she's both a fantastic writer and just generally one of the better people I've met in my lifetime. We trade PMs over every post, talk about possible plot threads, complain about shit happening in our lives - she's genuinely one of my better friends, even if I don't know her outside of this site, because I've probably written her about a page of material a day for more than a year and a half.

And because of that, I have a permanently inflated sense of what I can expect out of my other writing partners, which has caused me its own set of issues. Expecting people to live up to her standards has not worked well.

So I'm grateful for what I have, and who I have the pleasure of knowing and talking to.

I've worked with a lot of other people in the meantime, and had varying experiences. There's been a handful of people who absolutely know what they're doing and how to write like a master, but whose style doesn't mesh with my own. There's been people who forget their punctuation and have no idea how to characterize their people, who get confused and upset when I lose interest. I've had partners wander off and partners unleash the wrath of nuclear hellfire on me and take potshots at me in every general thread I dare to poke my head out in.

It's been a mix, is what I'm saying. You takes your chances.

I'd say the most important parts are learning not to take it personally, and not to try to tailor yourself to what the other person sounds like they want. Both avenues are a ticket to self-inflicted misery.

~*~

I have found that with some co-writers or role players, they crave and use pm or emails to guide the action. And others who after setting up the scenes want not further communication outside the writing. Those make me feel like I am walking a tight rope.

I have always appreciated my fellow writers, whether we couldn't work together or worked a while. My biggest pet peeve is when they just stop the action or line of communication. I get life happens and try to be a supportive "Literotica friend" but if it isn't working, just tell me and I wont wonder about if you are doing ok. (Ok, maybe I get attached to my friends here more than they to me)

I'll be honest, the people who just don't trade PMs or communicate I never manage to have long threads with. They usually die around the second or third page, because I'm not psychic and don't know where they want to move the plot. Knowing what to plan ahead for lets me produce better material. Otherwise I feel like a fumbling idiot, and no one enjoys that.

'Ghosting' is the common parlance for that which bedevils you, and it's a modern quirk. I've done it to people and had it done to me; I just take it as they discovered other priorities, rather than, y'know, me being personally repulsive or something. The distance of SRP makes it convenient to gently waft away from people you don't want to communicate with anymore.

The best solution is to make talking and writing with yourself as stress-free as possible, so it doesn't hang over people's heads like a cloud. Don't spam PMs at them, don't pop in on other threads and harass them about it, etcetera. Even if you do this, people will still disappear, because they don't like how they've portrayed themselves to you or what they've written, and it's easier to disappear and start over rather than deal with it.

Who knows? You don't, because you don't hear anything.

It sucks. Let it roll off your shoulders and move on.

 

[Obuzeti]

Obuzeti,
I am glad you started this thread. Thank you for your thoughtful explanation.

I'm utterly new to RP. Only have one thread on ORP. Never been on SRP. Just dabbling. Literally 'playing'. No ambition or anything.

You talked about backing off... Of course, it's easy to understand why people back off. I have no question about that.

Looks like your statement “ this is not a romantic attachment” responds to my question on “ no one wants to be friends with the people they're writing porn with.". Well, a romantic attachment is much further up from being friends ( “which is a topic all its own” later).....I thought it would be essential to communicate outside RP in order to make it work. one-night stands ? Most current SRP threads have been running longer than that. I would have problem having my passion and energy sustained without sincere friend quality communications with my co-players.

I don't see an explanation for “no one wants to talk frankly about sex”.
Thank you again for your being so open.

You do need to communicate outside of RP to make a thread work; it's, at heart, a shared writing project, and doesn't function if the two halves creating it aren't communicating. You can sort of limp along by leaving hints in the text, like for example your character laying out a laundry list of things that need to get done (in dialogue or otherwise), but that comes off as peremptory and brusque.

It's just important to have matching goals. If you're trying to figure out where you should place your imaginary character's apartment in Brooklyn, and your partner is trying to figure out your cup size, friction is inevitable. Establish boundaries early or suffer their crossing.

I'm glad to help out where I can.

So! Sex.

Here's the thing: sex is deeply personal and takes place almost entirely in the brain - mental arousal is far more a component than physical stimulation. Worse is that few people know how to describe what it is they really want. We kind of spraypaint in the general direction with SRP Profiles but this really just means that whoever you're working with has a word cloud of general things that get you off, but not what you really enjoy.

This only gets worse the rarer your particular kink is, because you start just throwing the one-word label over it ("I really like ENF!") and never explaining what it means because it's embarassing. Unfortunately, the more specific and rare the kink, the more explanation it'll probably require.

Complicating this is that written erotica often involves some level of power exchange, one partner having more or less control. Few people know how to do this in a healthy manner, and don't want to honestly discuss the limits you need to set; where the control starts and ends and how to keep it strictly in the thread.

(a lot of people have trouble with understanding that being dominant in thread gives you no ownership of the person writing that character.)

Furthermore, actual sex is a plethora of sensations, and it's easy to assume that we all know what turns each other on, and that's something that changes a lot. If I write about bending a woman over a bed, I know that the number one thing to do is take a fistful of her hair, and describe how I'm gentle with it, because that mixture of control and softness makes thighs rub together about 95% of the time.

The vast majority of men have no idea about that. I only know because someone keyed me in.

Likewise, one of the sexiest things a woman can do for a man is to put her lips on his hand somehow, because hands are an erogenous zone, and it reverses a popular paradigm (kissing a lady's hand, which has been done to death so much even the cliche is not worth using). Virtually no one I know has ever done this, but just about every guy that's ever gotten laid has taken the chance to put a finger in his lady's mouth somehow.

We just don't talk about it, because it's embarrassing.

Learning how to send the right sexual signals in text, build up anticipation, and simulate the sex in a way your partner can virtually feel it is an art form, and you only get good at it with feedback and by telling other people what it is you want and that turns you on.

It's just that being that exposed is really awkward, so no one does it.

 

[TheWorldBuilder]

Now that's awkward. We're in a thread hoping to discuss how we can communicate better in our writing and already we have an example of how quickly the communication can break down.

My current co-author has told me that I am "good".

She is happy to share countless PMs.... So far, she hasn't used the eMail address I sent her. In a way I understand that..., is that an intimacy too far?

I would bet money that you set off warning sirens in her head. If your partner doesn't want to contact you outside of Lit-E, stop pushing.

Somewhere four phrases got misinterpreted:

We share lots of PMs, I gave her my eMail, she hasn't used it, I understand.

No wonder more complex communication seems difficult.

*-*-*-*-*

As for the discomfort about sex, is that a Puritan thing? In my experience, it only seems to be those cultures with a strong influence from that C17th period that have a hang-up. None of my continental friends bat an eyelid when the topic is raised especially, as you'd expect, the Dutch and French ones. Mind you, it could be a Catholic thing instead.

 

[Obuzeti]

If someone misunderstands what's on the page, it's not a fault on their part. Whatever we intend when we write it down, the reader gets to interpret what they want. That's the age old argument between directors and movie critics; the director might have intended their film to be a cutting-edge critique of social mores, but if it's terrible, that just gets lost in translation and yelling at the critics over it doesn't improve their opinion of the work.

So, whatever you intend to have said, you wrote this:

She is happy to share countless PMs and I have told her that I need that because I can't see her eyes or hear her voice. So far, she hasn't used the eMail address I sent her. In a way I understand that. Although - as far as I'm aware - we're both single and there's 200 miles between us, is that an intimacy too far (although it would mean we could receive faster contact without having to come here).

You do, indeed, say you understand, and then you surrounded it with 'in a way' and 'althoughs' and what I'm sure is an innocuous observation that she doesn't have a relationship to get in the way of your talkings at the moment.

I have no way to know what you've said to her directly, and I have no way to know what you're actually feeling on the other side of the keyboard, but these do not read like the thoughts of a man content with the situation. I can only imagine she feels the same unease.

~*~

I live in the American South, and while it's not quite Puritanical, frank talk about sex and what to expect from it just doesn't happen here. Everyone sort of stumbles into the experience instead of knowing how to make it pleasurable besides Tab A into Slot B. There's also a wide gap between the casual sex scene, as indicated by the denomination of people that go to bars and clubs and Tinder and Grindr, and the broad mass of people that grew up in Christian Baptist families and had nine o' clock curfews, only to suddenly be dumped out into the fresh wilds when it came time to attend college.

I know I certainly didn't know anything about sex until college and rather abruptly had my education completed for me, at least.

What passes for Sex Ed around here is abstinence programs, long slideshows about STDs and teenage pregnancy, and a decades-long crusade against abortion clinics and readily available prophylactics. The name is a complete misnomer.

 

[haremfaery]

Just making a general comment about this. I've been on and off Lit for 10+ years, I think. When I've ghosted, it's because RL got in the way and I just didn't have time to explain. I've tried to be better about that.

I met one co-writer when I first joined and we are still friends. We email each other a lot. We started by writing together and messaging about the story. We became comfortable enough with each other and switched to Google Docs and email because it was easier for me when I was working lots of OT and couldn't get onto Lit at work.

I made other friends at that time as well, but we've lost track of each other over the years.

I've been back on Lit and writing again but so far haven't done more than write and message on Lit.

 

[Obuzeti]

Late reply, forgive me the delay - as a general rule I don't pay much attention to the Lounge.

@haremfaery Sounds like my experience, to be honest - I've been around on Lit for four years or so, but I've picked up and dropped folks a lot in that time. I'll be honest and admit sometimes that was RL business and sometimes it was me backing off conversations or partners that got too weird or real; I wasn't equipped at the time to deal with genuine human compassion. Made the dander on my neck stand up.

That said, I've settled some, and now I've got a pair of friends from this site that I message almost every day, write with, play Monster Hunter with, and generally are sociable with - and almost no part of that has to do with sex, except in how we met (writing smut, natch). I think a lot of people come to this site craving intimacy and don't really understand how to give it, or how to receive it gracefully, only understanding that sometimes sex is mixed up in there too.

The one great miracle I accord this site is that it gives you the freedom and privacy to make mistakes, to be human and confused and embarrassed, and this is no small thing in the digital age.

 

[haremfaery]

@Obuzeti No problem. (I set up email notifications so I don't miss posts, esp on threads I don't pay much attention to. Otherwise RL happens and I forget to check.)

The one great miracle I accord this site is that it gives you the freedom and privacy to make mistakes, to be human and confused and embarrassed, and this is no small thing in the digital age.

I agree. I've been on other RP sites and haven't found one that I like as much as RPing on Lit.