The Turkey- Syria thread

[suurfer]

Not sure if I'll get any posts,
but since Aglao's thread, which started well, turned into the inevitable dicks measuring contest:

I'll repost some of the on-topic posts here.

 

[suurfer]

To start: A view that offers an alternative to the mainstream one.

One doesn't necessarily have to agree with what Turkey is doing, and the concerns re it's ruthless govt./ imperialism remain,
but one needs to understand how they view things, right?

A radical group within the Kurdish area, the PKK, and a few other groups have been at war with the Turk's for over 40 years now. PKK roughly translates to Kurdish Worker's Party and their politics is exactly what the name infers, they are a far left Marxist organization that is listed as a terrorist organization by the UN and other like institutions. They are fairly large with an estimate of over 30,000 fighters. They were based primarily in Northern Iraq.

With the rise of ISIS they turned their attention to that particular terrorist organization and as ISIS was pushed out of Iraq into Northern Syria they followed along. They made up a large part of the Kurdish "Allies" that we were using as surrogates in the fight against ISIS.

So these "Allies" received training, weapons, and supplies from the Special Forces teams that were sent in to specifically do that training.

With the collapse of ISIS these US trained and equipped terrorists could turn their attention back to their primary enemy, Turkey.

Turkey may not be the best neighbor on the block but they are still a NATO ally. Starting to get the picture now?

The politics of the Mid-East are seriously complicated. As if being primarily tribal in nature isn't bad enough there are tribes within tribes. And this is the dort of situation that nations that engage in proxy wars (the US in this instance) end up in. It's not as if Machiavelli didn't warn leaders of nations about the problem some 600 years ago.

Anyway, what is the US to do? Create a "safe haven" for terrorists targeting a NATO ally or get the hell out and let the local belligerents sort their differences out?

And a pretty good video put up by the US Turkish Embassy, which clarifies Their point of view:


Embassy of Turkey, Washington D.C.
Why is Turkey carrying out the Operation Peace Spring?
https://www.facebook.com/turkishembassy/videos/398692064409969/

 

[Kantarii]

No thread is ever safe from dick sizing contests.

On topic: I couldn’t care less about what goes on with Turkey/ Syria. Let the jokers kill each other.

 

[HisArpy]

NATO needs to step up and tell Turkey to stop because they are involving the interests of their allies in their cross-border actions inside Syria.

The Kurds are a Syrian issue. When and if the Kurds invade Turkey, THEN it becomes a Turskish issue. Until then, Turkey shouldn't be involved in military actions inside Syria.

 

[DeluxAuto]

NATO needs to step up and tell Turkey to stop because they are involving the interests of their allies in their cross-border actions inside Syria.

The Kurds are a Syrian issue. When and if the Kurds invade Turkey, THEN it becomes a Turskish issue. Until then, Turkey shouldn't be involved in military actions inside Syria.

Why would the Kurds invade Turkey?

 

[HisArpy]

Why would the Kurds invade Turkey?

Are you...?

No, no one can be that dumb. Can you?

 

[DeluxAuto]

Are you...?

No, no one can be that dumb. Can you?

You even said "if".

 

[HisArpy]

You even said "if".

Yes, yes you ARE that dumb. Amazing.

 

[oggbashan]

The Kurds have wanted their own country since the end of the First World War when the Turkish Empire collapsed. They were denied that by the British/French partition of that area and now live in parts of what is modern Turkey, Syria and Iraq.

They had been oppressed by Turkey and Saddam Hussein. They hoped for assistance in Iraq from the US-led coalition after the second Iraq war. They didn't get it.

They saw leading the fight against ISIS as US allies as a way to get support for their aspirations but now they have been abandoned by the US they are vulnerable to Turkey's massive armed forces.

They feel betrayed after years of fighting a proxy war on behalf of the US.

 

[HisArpy]

The Kurds have wanted their own country since the end of the First World War when the Turkish Empire collapsed. They were denied that by the British/French partition of that area and now live in parts of what is modern Turkey, Syria and Iraq.

They had been oppressed by Turkey and Saddam Hussein. They hoped for assistance in Iraq from the US-led coalition after the second Iraq war. They didn't get it.

They saw leading the fight against ISIS as US allies as a way to get support for their aspirations but now they have been abandoned by the US they are vulnerable to Turkey's massive armed forces.

They feel betrayed after years of fighting a proxy war on behalf of the US.

Unfortunately, the ultimate responsibility for their welfare falls upon them and they have insisted on autonomy rather than unity.

When you fight with your neighbors, you'd better be expecting them to fight back. Trying to involve ever changing and nebulous allies in your internecine battle is stupid when you keep picking the fight.

The enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend. Nor is he my "ally". At best he is a useful tool to be used and discarded.

 

[Aglaopheme]

NATO needs to step up and tell Turkey to stop because they are involving the interests of their allies in their cross-border actions inside Syria.

The Kurds are a Syrian issue. When and if the Kurds invade Turkey, THEN it becomes a Turskish issue. Until then, Turkey shouldn't be involved in military actions inside Syria.

Hard to do when the US and Russia veto them.

 

[suurfer]

Yes, we all root for Kurds, whose nation was arbitrarily split and divided between four nations. Moreover, they're more secular.


But this is how Turkey sees things:

Turkey has been pushing for months for a safe zone between the autonomous territory led by PKK (their mortal enemy), and the Turkish border. Negociations with the EU/US have been unfruitful, because opinions within the US/EU govt. are split re the width of that safe zone.

Russia/Iran (following their own interests, of course) suggested the 1998 Adana pact between Turkey and Syria, as an alternative:




=====================================

Why is the 1998 Adana pact between Turkey and Syria back in the news?
Sinem Cengiz, January 2019
https://www.arabnews.com/node/1441931 (Saudi Arabia newspaper)

"The Adana agreement was signed by Turkey and Syria in 1998 [...]
Damascus had been allowing Abdullah Ocalan, the leader of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) — who is now serving a life sentence on the Turkish island of Imrali — to take shelter and direct the activities of the terrorist organization from within its borders for several years.

When Turkey threatened military action, Damascus deported Ocalan and closed the PKK camps in the country.

Article 1 of the Adana agreement states: “Syria, on the basis of the principle of reciprocity, will not permit any activity that emanates from its territory aimed at jeopardizing the security and stability of Turkey.”

Under the 1998 agreement, Damascus agreed that it would not allow the PKK to operate on its soil. Now, however, the YPG has claims for an autonomous administration in northern Syria based on the political ideals promoted by Ocalan."

 

[BotanyBoy]

The Kurds have wanted their own country since the end of the First World War when the Turkish Empire collapsed. They were denied that by the British/French partition of that area

But....BUTT.....BUTT BUSH!!!

The middle east was a utopian paradise until Bush!!!

Sean Penn said so on Twitter!!! That makes it a FACT!!
https://sebastianpage.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a62fff79970c0133ec3d43af970b-600wi

 

[HisArpy]

Hard to do when the US and Russia veto them.

You're mistaking the UN for NATO. Russia has no voice in NATO.

NATO cooperated with Russia until April 2014 when they voted to suspend cooperation due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

The recent veto in which the US joined Russia was in the UN security council, not NATO.

 

[oggbashan]

Unfortunately, the ultimate responsibility for their welfare falls upon them and they have insisted on autonomy rather than unity.

When you fight with your neighbors, you'd better be expecting them to fight back. Trying to involve ever changing and nebulous allies in your internecine battle is stupid when you keep picking the fight.

The enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend. Nor is he my "ally". At best he is a useful tool to be used and discarded.

And the US has done just that - discarded the Kurds. The Kurdish rebellion in Turkey has been low key and containable, or solvable by diplomatic means. The Kurds in Syria have NOT been fighting the Turks - until Turkey invaded.

If the Kurds are defeated in Syria they might decide on an asymmetric guerrilla war inside Turkey. They are a significant minority there and could cause consireable damage.

 

[HisArpy]

And the US has done just that - discarded the Kurds. The Kurdish rebellion in Turkey has been low key and containable, or solvable by diplomatic means. The Kurds in Syria have NOT been fighting the Turks - until Turkey invaded.

If the Kurds are defeated in Syria they might decide on an asymmetric guerrilla war inside Turkey. They are a significant minority there and could cause consireable damage.

Hence, as I said, NATO should tell Turkey to knock it off because it's straining their treaty alliance.

 

[BotanyBoy]

And the US has done just that - discarded the Kurds. The Kurdish rebellion in Turkey has been low key and containable, or solvable by diplomatic means. The Kurds in Syria have NOT been fighting the Turks - until Turkey invaded.

If the Kurds are defeated in Syria they might decide on an asymmetric guerrilla war inside Turkey. They are a significant minority there and could cause consireable damage.

That's exactly what they should do if they are real about what they are after.

 

[Aglaopheme]

You're mistaking the UN for NATO. Russia has no voice in NATO.

NATO cooperated with Russia until April 2014 when they voted to suspend cooperation due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

The recent veto in which the US joined Russia was in the UN security council, not NATO.

You’re right. That is what I get for skimming while multitasking.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Hence, as I said, NATO should tell Turkey to knock it off because it's straining their treaty alliance.

Lets be real though....NATO = USA.

If we don't make the threat, nobody will do a fucking thing about shit.

Europeans wouldn't do shit about Bosnian genocide, sure as fuck aren't going to do anything about the ME.

I hope ISIS comes back with a vengeance and after making Europe beg, Trump tells them "diversity is your strength!!" and laughs at them.

Because none of them will stand up for themselves.

I bet Putin could have the whole continent surrendering in a matter of hours if he wanted.

 

[oggbashan]

Yes, we all root for Kurds, whose nation was arbitrarily split and divided between four nations. Moreover, they're more secular.


But this is how Turkey sees things:

Turkey has been pushing for months for a safe zone between the autonomous territory led by PKK (their mortal enemy), and the Turkish border. Negociations with the EU/US have been unfruitful, because opinions within the US/EU govt. are split re the width of that safe zone.

Russia/Iran (following their own interests, of course) suggested the 1998 Adana pact between Turkey and Syria, as an alternative:




=====================================

Why is the 1998 Adana pact between Turkey and Syria back in the news?
Sinem Cengiz, January 2019
https://www.arabnews.com/node/1441931 (Saudi Arabia newspaper)

"The Adana agreement was signed by Turkey and Syria in 1998 [...]
Damascus had been allowing Abdullah Ocalan, the leader of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) — who is now serving a life sentence on the Turkish island of Imrali — to take shelter and direct the activities of the terrorist organization from within its borders for several years.

When Turkey threatened military action, Damascus deported Ocalan and closed the PKK camps in the country.

Article 1 of the Adana agreement states: “Syria, on the basis of the principle of reciprocity, will not permit any activity that emanates from its territory aimed at jeopardizing the security and stability of Turkey.”

Under the 1998 agreement, Damascus agreed that it would not allow the PKK to operate on its soil. Now, however, the YPG has claims for an autonomous administration in northern Syria based on the political ideals promoted by Ocalan."

In Turkey the Kurds have been seen, and increasingly treated by the current government, as second-class or non-citizens with no rights. That makes the Kurds more determined to fight back.

 

[DeluxAuto]

Yes, yes you ARE that dumb. Amazing.

Step up with facts of why I'm dumb. Just one?

 

[LupusDei]

Step up with facts of why I'm dumb. Just one?

I like maps.
https://graphics.reuters.com/SYRIA-SECURITY-TURKEY-USA/0100B2G11PY/index.html

Since we're dealing with desert terrain, the "positions" depicted in first graphic could easily be read as proxy for habitability. Note how the proposed "security buffer zone" of Turkey covers roughly half, if not more, of habitable areas of the Syria's part currently under control of Kurds.

Scroll down for distribution of Kurds between four countries, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Syria.

 

[bellisarius]

And the US has done just that - discarded the Kurds. The Kurdish rebellion in Turkey has been low key and containable, or solvable by diplomatic means. The Kurds in Syria have NOT been fighting the Turks - until Turkey invaded.

If the Kurds are defeated in Syria they might decide on an asymmetric guerrilla war inside Turkey. They are a significant minority there and could cause consireable damage.

They've been doing that since 1974 Ogg.

The word on the SOCOM street is the Kurd's have been pulling off small operations in Turkey with their new training and equipment. The justification was the Turkish air strikes in Syria against ISIS that allegedly hit some Kurdish enclaves. What the truth of that is doesn't matter anymore.

Adding to your history lesson. The Kurd's have never had a "Homeland" per se'. the Sumerians, Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, have all taken turns having their foot on the Kurd's neck. When the French and Brits decided to divvy up the Mid-East after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire they thought they had a chance. Bad thinking on their part.

Regarding the comment re. "Let Syria handle it." There is NO government in that region of Syria. The Syrian rebels in that area are busy fighting the Syrian government and some of the former ISIS fighters have gone underground. So you have three tribes there, the Syrian rebels, the Kurd's, and ISIS in hiding. But there ain't no steenking government. The area that Turkey is moving into is essentially a "no mans land."

Turkey's stated plans are to create a buffer zone and to move the Syrian refugee's into the area. That relocation of the refugee's is another reason the Kurd's are up in arms. That resettlement will severely dilute the Kurd population and they don't like that worth a shit either.

There is no easy solution to the problem.

 

[LupusDei]

This deserves to be here too.

Turkish state-backed media hails a “successful operation” to “neutralize” an unarmed 35-year old woman working to unite Arabs, Christians, and Kurds in NE Syria. Ms. Hevrin Khalef was reportedly dragged from a vehicle and shot to death. That’s a war crime. twitter.com/yenisafak/stat…

https://twitter.com/brett_mcgurk/status/1183112864908894208?s=21

 

[bellisarius]

In Turkey the Kurds have been seen, and increasingly treated by the current government, as second-class or non-citizens with no rights. That makes the Kurds more determined to fight back.

This is true. Up to the point that the Turkish government banned the speaking of the Kurdish language and the discouragement of wearing traditional Kurdish garb. A heavy handed attempt at forced assimilation.

I'm not trying to paint the Turks as the good guys in this passion play.

This is a long standing regional/tribal conflict in which the US has no vital interests nor any particular understanding. All of the parties in the conflict have their bitches and a good many of their bitches are legitimate. That being the case there is the need for an attempt to use diplomacy to try to get all the parties to sit down and cool down. Perhaps the US can play a role there, perhaps not. Right now we are not particularly well thought of by ANY of the belligerents and those feelings precede Trump by a long period of time.