An OP-ED for the Aspiring Critic

[kurrginatorX]

I happened upon a thread here once that began, "Some of the smartest people I know are here at Literotica." One has but to peruse the myriad threads available on this site to find Litsters who wax philosophically, those who espouse profound truths, and still others who state undeniable facts. These, of course, are generously peppered, at times, with babbling and diatribe, but that is to be expected. I can say that for myself, I do not know a lot of people here personally, but those with whom I do interact, they are an intelligent lot with fun-loving personalities and great senses of humor.

As of this article, I have contributed ninety stories to Literotica and I have 587 followers. I appreciate every single person who has elected to follow me, and the thousands of others who choose to read my stories as they are published. Of the stories, so much can be said. While it is true that not every story will resonate with every reader, it is the hope of every writer that his or her story reaches its reader on some emotional level. Still, there are some "gimmes" that have to be accepted, such as:

*In a heterosexual tale, the only homosexuality allowable is lesbianism. Yes, yes, I know. This no longer makes it a hetero tale, but my point is that readers will continue to accept it as a hetero tale as opposed to introducing a male-on-male scene.

*Some readers typecast a writer to a particular genre. My forte is incest. It was hard for me to break into tales featuring transgender or gay male lead characters, but those are now quite popular when I submit them.

So, what does any of this have to do with being a critic? Okay, you read a story, you like it, you decide to leave a comment. Thank you. I appreciate that. You read a story, you find something wrong with it, you leave a comment. This is what I want to address. You see, I do want my story to reach you on that emotional level, but once you decide to leave a comment--in essence, once you decide to take up the mantle of a critic--there are certain rules by which you must abide, and rule number one is: If you are going to critique a work, you must lay all emotion to the side. Allow me to give you a few actual examples of what I'm talking about.

* "You lost me when you described her as a female John Goodman. 4 stars."
* "I would have given you five stars but you used the word 'thus.'"
* "5 stars, but then you, well, you know …" (reference to me killing a supporting character, the father, in a mother / son tale of incest titled "Cleaning House")

In my opinion, the first two were nitpicky, but the last was fueled by emotion. Regardless, the readers here were led by their hearts, not their heads. What, then, are they critiquing? What should they, and you, critique? How well was the story written? Did it flow from one scene to the next? Was grammar and punctuation as it ought to be? Was the sex gratuitous, or did it actually move the story along? These are the things to keep in mind as you comment on a story. Yes, there is always room for you to voice your dislikes, but your dislikes should never figure into the overall critique, and another nickel's worth of free advice? Do not suggest to the author what he or she should have done. If you have great ideas for stories, then write them and submit them. Believe me when I say there are no more original ideas, just variations on a theme.

I welcome any and all comments, questions, and suggestions. I am sure I may have forgotten to make mention of one thing or another, so if another author would like to contribute, then by all means do so.

K

 

[SimonDoom]

I started a thread a little while back on what I thought were good "rules" for decent, fair story criticism, and, while I stand by them, I realize after reviewing the responsive posts to my thread that to some degree this is all whistling into the wind.

I agree with you, but the fact is that readers do respond emotionally to stories, and they'll react and vote emotionally. There's not much we can do about it.

I suspect the authors on this forum, to whom you are addressing your post, on the whole take a more measured and reasonable approach to criticism than do the non-author readers.

 

[Hypoxia]

Readers and writers approach LIT for their own reasons: to arouse (provoke) and be aroused (provoked); to waste er I mean fill time; to carefully consider literature; to unleash emotions; whatever. Serious literary criticism may not be a high priority among LITsters. Don't expect Allan Bloom here.

 

[Paul_Chance]

I think you are mistaking a "comment" with a "critique". The vast majority of readers are not going to take the time to actually critique a story. They are not reading the story in depth and then giving you a thoughtful and detailed response. You'll get that from maybe 1 in 100 readers. The vast majority are just "commenting" - maybe pointing out something that leaped out at them, maybe expressing their emotional response to the story.

If you want a critique, you should develop a circle of beta-readers who are willing to invest the time and effort into actually critiquing the story. Most of the time, in exchange for that free help, you'll want to offer the same.

The vast majority of readers are also not here reading the discussion boards, so to that extend opinions about comments are truly whistling in the wind. If you don't already do this, I would suggest engaging the people who comment upon your stories right their in the comments section.

 

[kurrginatorX]

I think you are mistaking a "comment" with a "critique".

No, I am not mistaking one for the other. This is addressed to those who attempt to reason their comment in some way that may appear rational but really isn't.

 

[NotWise]

I think you are mistaking a "comment" with a "critique".

I agree.

I realized soon after I started publishing stories here that the considered opinions that pop up now and then as comments from other authors and from some readers weren't really what I wanted, although they're appreciated for what they are. What I valued more in comments was exactly the opposite of what the OP seems to want. I wanted the readers' gut reactions. I wanted their emotional response to my story.

 

[8letters]

So, what does any of this have to do with being a critic? Okay, you read a story, you like it, you decide to leave a comment. Thank you. I appreciate that. You read a story, you find something wrong with it, you leave a comment. This is what I want to address. You see, I do want my story to reach you on that emotional level, but once you decide to leave a comment--in essence, once you decide to take up the mantle of a critic--there are certain rules by which you must abide, and rule number one is: If you are going to critique a work, you must lay all emotion to the side. Allow me to give you a few actual examples of what I'm talking about.

I disagree with this.

First off, I'm thrilled with practically every comment. It means I touched someone enough for them to take the time to write a response.

Second, I find no one comment very helpful. Comments form a mosaic that I need to step back from in order to learn. The more comments I get, the more detailed the mosaic is.

Third, comments are just one piece of feedback, and a very small one. Because one reader didn't like "thus" doesn't preclude that 99% of your readers did enjoy your use of "thus". You have to look at comments in a larger picture.

Fourth, critical comments rarely come out and name the actual problem with the story. They are just hints. You need to be a detective; gather all the clues and run through all the possible scenarios before you reach any conclusion. My first story published here is "Heather and Michael", and it's really poorly written. When I look at it now with more experienced eyes, I see a host of problems with the story. But the critical comments to that story just vaguely hint at those problems.

 

[KeithD]

. . . once you decide to leave a comment--in essence, once you decide to take up the mantle of a critic--there are certain rules by which you must abide . . .

I hear you on your druthers, but your premise won't fly. No, there are no rules here on giving comments by which the commenter must abide in the terms you pose. There are house rules on what can be posted otherwise it will be erased by the Web site, but that's a different line of comment than you are trying to enforce by unauthorized and unenforceable (other then erasing them yourself) "rules" on comment. As what you prefer, your points are sensible.

Also, as someone else has noted, limited-point comment is not critique.

 

[kurrginatorX]

If you only want to receive good, proper and valuable critics, turn off the comments.

I think the biggest … disappointment I face whenever I contribute something to the AF is that no one really gets it. I'd say Simon and Hypoxia do, but the rest of you?

 

[KeithD]

Disagreement isn't necessarily not getting it. My response to this thread op-ed, while being sympathetic to your preference, I think very clearly points to the failure of your premise. There are no rules for what someone else will choose to comment on your work that you have either the authority or the ability to impose. You can't impose rules that don't exist. You used the declarative on there being rules that you have a handle on and control. This is a writing site. It makes a difference how you phrase concepts.

 

[Voboy]

I think the biggest … disappointment I face whenever I contribute something to the AF is that no one really gets it. I'd say Simon and Hypoxia do, but the rest of you?

No.

We get it. We just disagree with you.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Comments... most of them I laugh at, the others I really appreciate. They maybe wrong in their critic, but I still appreciate what they have to say, even the ones I laugh at.

Would I change that so there are (enforceable)rules for posting comments, no, the site does profess to be a follower of freedom of speech, so let readers say what they like about my work. If I think it's to far out of line, I am able to delete it or them.

 

[Paul_Chance]

This is neither here nor there, but I have used/seen other sites who use a multiple choice/forced choice menu for feedback, with an optional comment feed. Choices are using things like "check the box for all that apply" then:

Grammar
Spelling
Sentence Fragments
Sentence Structure
Paragraph Structure
Plot Problems

These are more smallish sites that are trying to grow you as a writer through crowd-sourced editing.

You know, you could try soliciting feedback in the body of your story. Add a final paragraph that says "I'm a writer trying to grow my skills. If you've got a few minutes I'd really appreciate detailed feedback on my writing skills." That might encourage a few readers to leave you a more detailed critique or reach out via email. Be prepared for an onslaught of "You Suck", because, well, it's the internet. You might get a few gems though.

You can also use a thread here and ask author/editor/readers to critique a specific story from a technical or structural point of view, being specific on what type of critique you want. Then, remember, don't argue with anyone who takes the time to do it. Say thanks or ask for clarification. What you want to do is build a small group of folks who are sincerely interested in helping you grow as a writer.

 

[Sonatatre]

I found two problems with the original post.

First it seemed like a positive comment, is just seen as a comment, while all negative comments are turned into critique.

Second it seems like they encourage and enjoy emotions for a positive comment, but argue against it in a negative comment.

I think those two flaws made me unable to agree with anything else.

 

[ElectricBlue]

If you post your story in the Feedback Forum and ask for a critique, you might naively expect a measured, balanced, emotion-free response, but even there you won't get one. Folk who could be bothered getting off their bum and scribbling a few thoughts in response to your story are generally going to do so because they were moved by it, or were pissed off by it; but if they're neutral (which is what you seem to want) they're not going to waste their time writing anything at all. Extend that same logic to the general commentariat, and expect to regulate it? That's just silly.

You're writing erotica. Of course folk are going to be emotional in how they respond, if they can be bothered responding, and if you've written powerfully well. If you've written crap, then you've wasted their time, and they're going to let you know that as well.

Your desire for emotionless responses is just really odd, to me. You're not sitting an exam or submitting a thesis. You're trying to move someone with your writing, but you don't want them to be moved in their response?

If you want a robotic response, just run your content through one of those content checker programs. If you want a human response which actually means something, then submit to Lit and keep your comments turned on. If you don't like what you get, turn comments off. It's pretty simple.

 

[Hypoxia]

I'm not sure what insights I do or don't get, except that every comment means I've jabbed a reader hard enough -- that's my self-assigned job here.

Yes, the Story Feedback forum (should be Story Finds & Feedbacks) and the nearly-extinct Story Discussion Circle invite reasoned critiques, but they run rather thin. Yes, a circle of beta readers and a fan club may provide good input. I've received excellent prompts from beta readers and useful comments from both committed and casual readers. Negatory comments don't bother me -- except the death threats, and they seem to have been filtered out lately.

Online writers' circles exist, where would-be authors can circulate stories for critiquing. I dunno if pr0n is welcome. Check it out, maybe.

 

[Handley_Page]

. Allow me to give you a few actual examples of what I'm talking about.

* "You lost me when you described her as a female John Goodman. 4 stars."
* "I would have given you five stars but you used the word 'thus.'"
* "5 stars, but then you, well, you know …" (reference to me killing a supporting character, the father, in a mother / son tale of incest titled "Cleaning House")

In my opinion, the first two were nitpicky, but the last was fueled by emotion. Regardless, the readers here were led by their hearts, not their heads. What, then, are they critiquing? What should they, and you, critique? How well was the story written? Did it flow from one scene to the next? Was grammar and punctuation as it ought to be? Was the sex gratuitous, or did it actually move the story along? These are the things to keep in mind as you comment on a story.

K

I would have lost me, too.
I had to look up that name, and I still don't understand the comment (I never saw Rosanne).

 

[Hypoxia]

I would have lost me, too.
I had to look up that name, and I still don't understand the comment (I never saw Rosanne).

That's the trouble with any celeb reference. Who dat? I'm sure names of Oz, UK, Bollywood, rap, and Euro stars resonate within their communities. Elsewhere... duh.

I'm 'familiar' with almost no post-2010 celebs. Did I miss anything?

 

[Voboy]

I'm 'familiar' with almost no post-2010 celebs. Did I miss anything?

You’re no safer going older, depending on your reader demographic. I work with young people, and many of them have no clue who John Wayne was. They’ve heard of Marilyn Monroe, but only as a name.

In fact, now that I’m thinking about it, I’m not sure I could come up with a list of celebs famous enough to reliably capture every reader. I mean, outside of George Washington perhaps. There was a time when Bogart or Hepburn would have worked for everyone, but those days are done.

 

[Hypoxia]

You’re no safer going older, depending on your reader demographic. I work with young people, and many of them have no clue who John Wayne was. They’ve heard of Marilyn Monroe, but only as a name.

In fact, now that I’m thinking about it, I’m not sure I could come up with a list of celebs famous enough to reliably capture every reader. I mean, outside of George Washington perhaps. There was a time when Bogart or Hepburn would have worked for everyone, but those days are done.

I try to minimize local-space-time name-drops in my stories. I might get away with certain political names, but I address the position, not who fills it, so I'll say "the fucking vice president attended the funeral" and let readers assume. I may invoke a notorious pope. But media names, other than Disney characters? They blow by so fast, like the big names of my grandparents' day, often remembered only in old cartoons. Cab Calloway? Who dat?

Other than actual science stars in The Botanists, I invent my celebs. That's safer.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Cab Calloway? Who dat?

I know it, there must be entire generations growing up not knowing the Blues Brothers. What's it like having no culture, or thinking only the last three years is cool? Fuck that .

 

[Hypoxia]

I know it, there must be entire generations growing up not knowing the Blues Brothers. What's it like having no culture, or thinking only the last three years is cool? Fuck that .

Cab hit about a half-century before the BB. I should have mentioned Ethel Waters. [/me whips out chromatic harmonica and blows St Louis Blues]

Is a puzzlement. Current audiences can access more music than was ever possible. Musicians scoop it up but many listeners are stuck to limited playlists. Who wants a mixtape of Maori chants, Charles Ives, and Sonny McGee?

ObTopic -- old truism: Those who can, do. Those who can't, criticize. Rare notable musical and literary exceptions exist but it generally holds true. But at least they got paid. Forget that here.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Cab hit about a half-century before the BB. I should have mentioned Ethel Waters. [/me whips out chromatic harmonica and blows St Louis Blues]

Yes, but he performed Minnie the Moocher in the movie, which probably re-introduced him to a bunch of people.

Speaking of half centuries, I was flicking through an Arts channel and there was a program on The Doors' first album, one of those ones where the engineer sits and deconstructs the mix. And having just seen Apocalypse Now - the Final Cut, which features the "other take" of The End, I was reminded just how astonishing that track was.

 

[ChloeTzang]

No.

We get it. We just disagree with you.

I get what the OP is saying too, but it’s largely wishful thinking on Literotica. And the target audience for that message isn’t here. I do get some really good critiques but they’re largely off line and not in the comments.

 

[8letters]

I'm not sure what insights I do or don't get, except that every comment means I've jabbed a reader hard enough -- that's my self-assigned job here.

Yes, the Story Feedback forum (should be Story Finds & Feedbacks) and the nearly-extinct Story Discussion Circle invite reasoned critiques, but they run rather thin. Yes, a circle of beta readers and a fan club may provide good input. I've received excellent prompts from beta readers and useful comments from both committed and casual readers. Negatory comments don't bother me -- except the death threats, and they seem to have been filtered out lately.

Online writers' circles exist, where would-be authors can circulate stories for critiquing. I dunno if pr0n is welcome. Check it out, maybe.

I think it's really hard to give helpful in-depth advice to another author. I have a particular style, and I can advise you all day on how to write in that style. But authors should want to write in their style, not mine. I've gotten a lot of advice from AwkwardMD on my stories, and ignored most of it. She asked me to advise her on one of her stories, and she ignored most of my advice. Even though the OP writes I/T stories as I do, I couldn't give him in-depth advice as his style is so different than mine.