writing short chapters

[KeithD]

There are many things I’ll never understand. Those who ask internet strangers for advice and then become combative about the advice they receive? That’s just one of them. I don’t get it.

Amen to that. I find I am getting engaged in fewer and fewer noob threads here that turn to the noob, who asked for the help, biting the hands of those giving experienced, honest, even if contradictory, responses. I have writing of my own to do.

 

[rikimaru4]

Amen to that. I find I am getting engaged in fewer and fewer noob threads here that turn to the noob, who asked for the help, biting the hands of those giving experienced, honest, even if contradictory, responses. I have writing of my own to do.

I hope that's in response generally and not to this thread, or just some show of camaraderie to an online pal, since, so far as I can see, I've been nothing but courteous to you and everyone else in this thread who has been likewise.

But if you're looking to join the strawman lovefest, well hey... I got plenty of snark to go around.

 

[KeithD]

I got plenty of snark to go around.

Yes, I got that already. I don't have to be personally attacked to see the prevailing attitude developing.

 

[rikimaru4]

Yes, I got that already. I don't have to be personally attacked to see the prevailing attitude developing.

So you're able to perceive that uncivil attitudes receive snide responses from me? Very insightful of you.

 

[HectorBidon]

most of my stories are crafted with some buildup/slow burn, and I've always felt that by giving a little space between chapter releases, the effect is maintained, or perhaps even enhanced (this is based on the presumptuousness that I actually have readers who follow my work closely enough to anticipate/await the next release).

I guess I liken it to the old days of pulp serial releases . . .

I read the first chapter of your current serial. You're certainly an excellent writer. Your prose has a blockbuster page-turner quality that catches the reader right up. You can certainly get away with short chapters because you pack a lot in. I'd read complaints about shortness as mostly just readers saying that they want more.

I've seen serials in other categories that have had loyal followers who eagerly awaited each new installment. In most cases I think the timing of the chapters was dictated by author productivity rather than deliberate teasing. But hey, it's your story. Go for it. If you keep putting out quality stories, you'll acquire a readership, and I'll bet they'll follow you whatever way you go. Good luck!

 

[rikimaru4]

I guess there are two rules we all have to follow:

1: Meet Laurel's guidelines
2: Write what feels best to you

You can ask for advice, you can ask for opinions, but in the end, you'll have to write your own stories. You better make sure you enjoy writing, or it else, to me, it doesn't make sense at all to write without payment.

But to add to that, it is my advice to try to avoid getting into arguments within 15 posts on any kind of forum. It may spoil your fun around here, while in general, the Authors' Hangout is a nice place to be.

Check out some of the other threads around here, like the Coffee Shop, and see if you feel like mingling with the crowd in a more positive way. Most of us are pretty harmless.

If you'll allow, I'll present this thread's progression as I view it:

1) I started the thread with a question.

2) I receive a myriad of responses, each expressing differing opinions running the gamut of "you're totally fine, keep it up" down to "stop it doing it like that". Mostly provided in a helpful, constructive fashion. Some expressed more "bluntly" than others So far so good.

3) I reply, expressing appreciation for the responses. Some genuine discussion and exchanging of ideas take place. Also, state that I'm going to wrap up my story as is and play around with my formats.

4) Voboy pronounces me senseless for not following "The Data" and collective infallible wisdom of the seasoned writers of Lit, as if there was some sort of actual consensus heretofore.

5) I reply with a response on parity with the courteousness I've been shown, alluding to the irony of being accused of preferring an opinion solely because it's aligned with my own.

6) Voboy decides receiving snark isn't as nice as dishing it, and he and others proclaim me an ungrateful noob since the only reason I could POSSIBLY be throwing shade is because I don't like the substance of the opinions I've asked for.

Does that about sum things up? Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[ChuckWolf]

Depending on what device a reader is using to read stories here, a multi-chapter story could be a technical headache if the reader has to deal with new pop ups when each page loads.

 

[rikimaru4]

Thank you for the encouraging feedback.

You can certainly get away with short chapters because you pack a lot in.

This gets back to the substance of what I was originally asking about. I wonder if the conciseness is a bad thing. Maybe I'm lacking in exposition. Or perhaps the plot itself is too simple/bare bones to sustain longer chapter content.

In most cases I think the timing of the chapters was dictated by author productivity rather than deliberate teasing.

I am new to Lit but not very new to posting publicly. I have certainly fallen behind (as in many months) in my story releases and caused the story to lose momentum as a result. So productivity is certainly some element of it as well, but I was more interested in discussing the suspense aspect, which is apparently deeply offensive to some.

 

[SimonDoom]

If you'll allow, I'll present this thread's progression as I view it:

1) I started the thread with a question.

2) I receive a myriad of responses, each expressing differing opinions running the gamut of "you're totally fine, keep it up" down to "stop it doing it like that". Mostly provided in a helpful, constructive fashion. Some expressed more "bluntly" than others So far so good.

3) I reply, expressing appreciation for the responses. Some genuine discussion and exchanging of ideas take place. Also, state that I'm going to wrap up my story as is and play around with my formats.

4) Voboy pronounces me senseless for not following "The Data" and collective infallible wisdom of the seasoned writers of Lit, as if there was some sort of actual consensus heretofore.

5) I reply with a response on parity with the courteousness I've been shown, alluding to the irony of being accused of preferring an opinion solely because it's aligned with my own.

6) Voboy decides receiving snark isn't as nice as dishing it, and he and others proclaim me an ungrateful noob since the only reason I could POSSIBLY be throwing shade is because I don't like the substance of the opinions I've asked for.

Does that about sum things up? Is there something I'm missing here?

I think, without ascribing fault to anyone, that this thread went unnecessarily sideways.

Understand that what Voboy and KeithD are talking about is a real thing that happens sometimes. A noobie asks a question, a bunch of "gurus" weigh in, and then the noobie ignores the advice, and sometimes just flatly refuses to believe it, on the basis of . . . nothing. I don't think that's what you did, but I understand somewhat what Voboy's point was, although I would not have used the word "senseless" to describe your response. Both Voboy and KeithD have written many stories and done quite well here, so they have useful information to offer.

Anyway, this actually can be a very helpful and friendly place, so my recommendation is don't get caught up in snark and just have a good time. Feathers get ruffled sometimes, but we're adults and we can all move on.

One more suggestion: include a link to your submissions page in your public profile, so people can access them easily and get a better idea what you're talking about when you pose a question about your stories.

 

[HectorBidon]

I wonder if the conciseness is a bad thing. Maybe I'm lacking in exposition. Or perhaps the plot itself is too simple/bare bones to sustain longer chapter content.

Conciseness in not necessarily a bad thing, especially in an action story. You laid out, clearly and crisply, what needed to be said. I thought (the first chapter at least) was very effective in setting up the situation, introducing the characters, and jumping head-first into the action. Lean and mean.

There's a recent thread that goes at this from the other direction by an author who is afraid that his writing is too pokey and wants to move it along more quickly:

Story writing.

So productivity is certainly some element of it as well, but I was more interested in discussing the suspense aspect.

Some people wait until a series is completely written before they publish it. Sometimes they upload all the chapters as separate submissions at once and Laurel puts them out on subsequent days. Sometimes they manage it themselves, putting up each new chapter as soon as the previous one comes out, which spaces them a few days apart. Something like this would probably be better for maintaining momentum. If readers know that the next chapter is coming soon, they'll probably be more tolerant of short, suspense-building teasers.

However, I think there's also a kind of a pleasure for the reader in knowing that a story is being written in real time. In some of the serials I've followed there has even been interaction between the author and the readers in the comments section, the readers expressing opinions and hopes, the author at least listening and responding to their ideas. That can keep momentum alive too, as long as the gaps are not too long.

 

[rikimaru4]

I think, without ascribing fault to anyone, that this thread went unnecessarily sideways.

Understand that what Voboy and KeithD are talking about is a real thing that happens sometimes. A noobie asks a question, a bunch of "gurus" weigh in, and then the noobie ignores the advice, and sometimes just flatly refuses to believe it, on the basis of . . . nothing. I don't think that's what you did, but I understand somewhat what Voboy's point was, although I would not have used the word "senseless" to describe your response. Both Voboy and KeithD have written many stories and done quite well here, so they have useful information to offer.

Anyway, this actually can be a very helpful and friendly place, so my recommendation is don't get caught up in snark and just have a good time. Feathers get ruffled sometimes, but we're adults and we can all move on.

One more suggestion: include a link to your submissions page in your public profile, so people can access them easily and get a better idea what you're talking about when you pose a question about your stories.

Oh Lordy... the emotional baggage excuse? Listen, I know you've been hurt by noobs before, but I'm not them. How can I prove to you that I'M NOT THEM?!

Joking aside, these guys are obviously not unintelligent. They know what I said/did. Why there's this pretense that it's something else... Well, who can say...

I appreciate your trying to calm the waters.

 

[SimonDoom]

O They know what I said/did. Why there's this pretense that it's something else... Well, who can say...

.

We have all been misunderstood. I can't tell you how many times my wisdom has gone unappreciated.

But I'm a duck. The water flows off my back, and I swim forward.

Be a duck.

 

[rikimaru4]

quack quack

 

[SimonDoom]

quack quack

See how easy that was?

 

[yukonnights]

I read your first story shortly after it was first posted. I just read over it again and I recalled the first reading of it. So here's my take; I liked it the first time I read it. But, it didn't prompt me to add you as an author I follow. Part of that was probably because you were new and I had no idea if this was another hopeful start never to be finished.

My purpose in saying that is to reiterate what a few others have brought up; For me, it is important to know going in that a story is complete. I add my opinion to those who have mentioned to post completed stories. The dead-end series has happened enough to cast a shadow of question on all series stories.

But I think there are other advantages. First, the author can work the story out to the best of his/her ability—"This is it, it's the best I can do." Also, the author can put a comforting little note at the beginning which assures the reader it is all written, submitted, and new chapters will be posted every couple/few days. Lit will automatically dole the chapters out for you every couple/few days. This means you'll be on the all important New Story List for quite awhile. This will help build a reader following. Doing the complete story also takes the worry of having to produce off the author's back. I don't know anyone's motivation to write except my own and I do it for fun...and it's not fun to be under pressure.

The main thing is; You're an experienced writer. To your original question; Would having to wait in uncertainty for the next installment build anticipation or forgetfulness? In my case, I enjoyed your first chapter...then forgot about it. Had it all been there I probably would have kept reading. Hope this one reader's experience was helpful.

 

[yukonnights]

We have all been misunderstood. I can't tell you how many times my wisdom has gone unappreciated.

But I'm a duck. The water flows off my back, and I swim forward.

Be a duck.

Hmmm, I always forget, when does duck season start around here I'd rather be an eagle...fly high and have a federal law protecting me

 

[Voboy]

I was more interested in discussing the suspense aspect, which is apparently deeply offensive to some.

“Deeply offensive?”

No. I just said I didn’t want to read stories like that, and that while I acknowledge I’m not every reader, I’ve been around long enough to know that longer stories are frequently better-received.

Suspense is all very well. But every submission, whether it’s a complete story or just part of a larger work, ought to have a payoff contained within it. That’s about respecting the readers’ time.

 

[rikimaru4]

“Deeply offensive?”

No. I just said I didn’t want to read stories like that, and that while I acknowledge I’m not every reader, I’ve been around long enough to know that longer stories are frequently better-received.

Suspense is all very well. But every submission, whether it’s a complete story or just part of a larger work, ought to have a payoff contained within it. That’s about respecting the readers’ time.

I'll apologize for that remark, it was needlessly catty and hypocritical if I'm to claim I want to move on from the snarkiness.

There is room to debate suspense vs. momentum, which are antitheses of each other by nature (or are they?), and is the kind of conversation I'd like to have had. I think it's an ungenerous interpretation to factor respect for the reader into this.

We all write for ourselves first and foremost, and present our work how we feel it's best represented. Clearly, if I felt a chapter didn't have some kind of payoff in and of itself, I wouldn't do releases in this fashion. Or perhaps I would and it would get downvoted accordingly.

So far as taking a reader's perspective into account, in my view, they don't need my consideration. If they don't like my method of presentation, they can wait until it's released in entirety (which I know some do), or not read it at all (as you say you do), vote it down, complain in the comments (hence this thread).

 

[rikimaru4]

Hmmm, I always forget, when does duck season start around here I'd rather be an eagle...fly high and have a federal law protecting me

choose as you will, but you won't be able to look to the government for help from scofflaws

https://people.com/pets/photo-blackbird-riding-on-bald-eagle-back/

 

[yukonnights]

choose as you will, but you won't be able to look to the government for help from scofflaws

https://people.com/pets/photo-blackbird-riding-on-bald-eagle-back/

No, no. That's no scofflaw, it's just my little buddy and me out for some fun

 

[Voboy]

I'll apologize for that remark, it was needlessly catty and hypocritical if I'm to claim I want to move on from the snarkiness.

There is room to debate suspense vs. momentum, which are antitheses of each other by nature (or are they?), and is the kind of conversation I'd like to have had. I think it's an ungenerous interpretation to factor respect for the reader into this.

We all write for ourselves first and foremost, and present our work how we feel it's best represented. Clearly, if I felt a chapter didn't have some kind of payoff in and of itself, I wouldn't do releases in this fashion. Or perhaps I would and it would get downvoted accordingly.

So far as taking a reader's perspective into account, in my view, they don't need my consideration. If they don't like my method of presentation, they can wait until it's released in entirety (which I know some do), or not read it at all (as you say you do), vote it down, complain in the comments (hence this thread).

I disagree, obviously; if I was writing, first and foremost, for myself, I wouldn’t bother publishing my stories here. Nor would you. No?

I post them because I know I can provide what my readers wish to read, and that’s what I try to do. Like every established writer here, I’ve got scads of finished pieces I deem unworthy of posting. Why? Because someone invests their time to read my work. That’s time they could be doing any number of worthwhile things: cooking for the ones they love, perhaps. Playing with their children. Studying, to become more effective at their job.

Whatever. They’re choosing my words over any of that. And I think that places a duty on me as someone who places work here. I’ve got a duty to myself as well, a self-imposed one to be true to whichever voice I’ve discovered in myself. But I think that pales by comparison to what I owe my readers.

The tenor of your comments here suggests that you feel differently. That it’s your right to give them whatever YOU feel they deserve, rather than what their time and their attention and their regard for you entitle them to. They deserve your best effort. They deserve, first and last, a well-told story. Not whatever fragment of a well-told story you deign to dole out.

I’ve been a reader here since the 1900s. What you call “suspense” or “imposing a break,” the reader in me calls “disrespecting the time I’m giving to your story.” Always, always provide a payoff. Because if your writing was only about you, it’d stay on your hard drive.

 

[SamScribble]

An interesting discussion. This started out as ‘Do you think my chapters are too short?’ and somehow ended up about the author’s obligations to the readers.

First may I say that one of my top 50 all-time favourite books is Our Sunshine by Robert Drewe. My edition is 180 pages divided into about 45 ‘chapters’, some of them less than a single Picador page. Each ‘chapter’ is a scene, an incident, or a particular character’s POV. The advantage of having them down on paper is that you can read one, two, ten, or 20 at a bite. And there’s really no reason why you can’t do the same with an electronically-published story – it just requires that the author writes the whole thing before publishing.

When it comes to the author’s obligations to readers at this free site, I think there are very few. I think that my only real obligation is to try to ensure that the prose is easy to read. First and foremost, that means taking all reasonable steps to avoid typos and words that the reader might not recognise. If the reader doesn’t feel that they got full value for the fee they paid to read (which, last time I checked, was zero pounds, zero dollars, zero Euros), maybe they need to consider paying a bit more.

 

[Hypoxia]

ObTopic: Questions of how long a submission "should be" arise here on AH about every week. AH needs a sticky directing such questioners to the forum archive to see extant answers. Such always trend toward: write it as long as you want, above the 750 word LIT minimum, because every tale has its own dynamics and so do you. Then see if you like reader reactions.

 

[rikimaru4]

An interesting discussion. This started out as ‘Do you think my chapters are too short?’ and somehow ended up about the author’s obligations to the readers.

...

When it comes to the author’s obligations to readers at this free site, I think there are very few. I think that my only real obligation is to try to ensure that the prose is easy to read. First and foremost, that means taking all reasonable steps to avoid typos and words that the reader might not recognise. If the reader doesn’t feel that they got full value for the fee they paid to read (which, last time I checked, was zero pounds, zero dollars, zero Euros), maybe they need to consider paying a bit more.

I find this reverence of readers' time very peculiar. And a bit hyperbolic of people taking 30 seconds to click a link, skim the first few paragraphs and decide if its their cup of tea or not.

If there's a prevailing theme in this thread, on this forum as whole, it's 'write what YOU want, do what YOU want, as nothing else makes sense in a place where readers don't pay to read and writers don't get paid to write.'

Seems self evident to me.

ObTopic: Questions of how long a submission "should be" arise here on AH about every week. AH needs a sticky directing such questioners to the forum archive to see extant answers. Such always trend toward: write it as long as you want, above the 750 word LIT minimum, because every tale has its own dynamics and so do you. Then see if you like reader reactions.

I get that, and this was intended to be a somewhat deeper discussion beyond the technical is-this-too-short-should-i make-it-longer vein. And also outside of the boilerplate how-do-I-get-more views-better-votes thread. But I don't know that there is really a real answer to what I was primarily asking outside of what you've posted.

 

[Hypoxia]

...I don't know that there is really a real answer to what I was primarily asking outside of what you've posted.

Nope. It's the best answer you'll get. Take control of your writing.

If you want brownie points of appreciation (views, votes, faves) then pander. If you want exposure, post to popular categories, and pander. If you want to exercise you imagination, post anywhere and disregard the responses, but pander anyway. LIT caters to masturbators. Pander to them and you'll do fine. Or write to outrage flaky readers. Do whatever you want (within rules). Nobody will damage you for your words. They may whine, but they're distant.