too many pronouns? and other common errors

[cascadiabound]

I am a relatively new poet. I do not consider myself particularly good at it... I just write. Some please me more than others. I want to improve and take my efforts seriously.

To that end, I have been consulting various resources about writing poems, which has prompted me to go back and look at things I have posted with a more critical eye.

With that in mind, I would like to look at the poem "Joe" originally posted on the challenge thread A Dog's Life. I had thought it was a decent effort when I posted it originally, but as I read it now the plethora of pronouns seems quite glaring to me, and so I wonder if it is terrible??? I don't know.

("Joe" has a nice friendly, chatty, storytelling quality).

The farm was a doggie place
Nestled as it was at the end of a long winding road
There was Bernie, the dachshund, who believed he was human
All personality, so clever and charming
Shivering only when he knew you were watching him
Conning his way inside to lie under the woodstove
Momma and daughter sheepdogs, eyes hidden behind grey wool
Large masses of friendly fur, nudging at my legs as I came and went
But it was Joe I loved, with his soft caramel brown eyes that could see my soul.
He liked to greet my celica, resting his large head in my lap, door half open
Erect shepherd ears mobile as I scratched and talked quietly to him.
He joined me on the porch as I drank my tea,
Solid flank against my thigh, sighing deeply as he settled his chin on his paw
And when my tears flowed, Joe the shepherd did not wince when I held him tight
My tears wetting his black and brown shoulder
We buried him on the hill above the pond where the guinea hens cry
He tangled with a car on the road and had died alone.
The grave we dug as big and as deep as for a person. Our Joe.
He was never just a dog.
He made the farm a home.
​

[snip from https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=90154579#post90154579]
Pronouns don't smell, don't have any color, ..., they are not sensual, they are just dregs or dead dry wood. At the best, they are a poetic placebo. There are exceptions. For instance, they may provide rhythm and mood as in (another ad hoc example):

the two of them
and the two of you
and she and he and me
hee-haw hee-haw​

etc. Thus this time the pronouns contribute (for the better or worse) certain interesting sounds, something poetic is happening (hopefully), the pronouns are justified poetically (or you -- readers of this note -- provide a better example). Thus there is room in poetry for about everything, even for pronouns, but not in regular phrases in which pronouns exist only for grammatical and logical reasons -- that's for poetry not enough, because no grammar, logic, politics, good heart/soul, humor, suspense... can serve as an excuse. The same goes not only for pronouns but for EVERY element of a poem.

People take it for granted, that of course poems have to have pronouns, that it's nothing to mention, that it's ok. NOT if you're a poet.

I also noted butters comments about why some poor poems still work for readers, poems about dogs being chief among them.

https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=90454062&postcount=1

Her comments made me wonder... ugh - is "Joe" an emotionally effective poem because of the subject content (most everyone can relate to dog stories) in spite of it being a bad poem? (Yes I know her comments were not directed at anyone in particular, they just made me think.)

In any case, Senna Jawa suggested I make a separate thread to discuss my pronoun worries after I brought it up on his excellent thread Poetry's Finer Points (see link above).

I may use this thread for discussing my poems that exhibit common errors and see if they can be improved, beginning with this poem.

Thanks to any poets who aid me on my journey. And particular thanks to Senna Jawa for the suggestion to start this thread - frankly, it would not have occurred to me to do so.

cb

 

[butters]

hi, cb, i'll come back to this in a day or so if i don't have time today. there are places you can strengthen your poem (imo) by swapping out some phrases for something tighter that still says the same thing. love your line about the hill/pond/guinea hens. very visual, very poignant. and you are right, my comments were really not directed at anyone, certainly not your 'Joe'

also, if a poem IS emotionally effective, there's nothing wrong in it being because the author's tapping into that shared life-experience of the reader. it just becomes a better poem if this is not THE ONLY reason it's effective.

 

[butters]

cb, what were your reasons for choosing 'long winding road'? for me it holds certain allusions that reinforce some of the themes in this; 'serpentine' would have created the imagery in a smoother manner - but would lack those underlying allusions.

 

[cascadiabound]

cb, what were your reasons for choosing 'long winding road'? for me it holds certain allusions that reinforce some of the themes in this; 'serpentine' would have created the imagery in a smoother manner - but would lack those underlying allusions.

Perhaps it was laziness. I always thought of the 5 miles I had to drive to that farm as a "long winding road". It was an old poorly graded road with lots of blind turns. But it was not actually serpentine as I think of that word as meaning doubling back on itself.

Also... my journey to that place... does match the language of a long winding road allegorically.
Every time I drove home I could feel my soul unclenching a little bit.

 

[butters]

Perhaps it was laziness. I always thought of that 5 miles I had to drive to that farm as a "long winding road" it was an old poorly graded road with lots of blind turns. But it was not actually serpentine as I think of that word as meaning doubling back on itself.

also... my journey to that place... does match the language of a long winding road allegorically.
Every time I drove home I could feel my soul unclenching a little bit.

for me, it buys directly into the beatles song

The long and winding road that leads to your door
Will never disappear

a pool of tears crying for the day/why leave me standing here

Many times I've been alone and many times I've cried

you left me standing here a long long time ago

the lyrics, plus the key and pace of the music, create an emotional response and your use of 'long winding road' taps into that. whether or not it lends a strong enough underlying tone to your poem to retain it rather than find a different phrase is debatable. i was just making observations as they came to me

as with every poem, it will be that bit different each time it's read/interacted with by a different reader because each person (captain obvious, sorry) has their own memories/experiences to bring to the table.

 

[cascadiabound]

for me, it buys directly into the beatles song
the lyrics, plus the key and pace of the music, create an emotional response and your use of 'long winding road' taps into that. whether or not it lends a strong enough underlying tone to your poem to retain it rather than find a different phrase is debatable. i was just making observations as they came to me

as with every poem, it will be that bit different each time it's read/interacted with by a different reader because each person (captain obvious, sorry) has their own memories/experiences to bring to the table.

Of course I know the Beatles song... and I should perhaps have thought of the fact that the phrase would resonate strongly with most readers to those lyrics, but it had not occurred to me tbh.

 

[butters]

sorry if i'm coming at this piecemeal, cb; i'm waiting for the grandkids to arrive so am taking it in 'bites'

The farm was a doggie place
i want to see something else instead of 'doggie place'; whilst it's true to itself, it sounds a bit sugary. i live on a farm, too, and the presence of a dog, or dogs, is all about their bark or shed fur or dropped bones, paw prints, that sort of thing. i'm not saying 'doggie' is "wrong", just noting how it makes ME react as a reader

Nestled as it was at the end of a long winding road
as it was - do you really need that? what would the line lose if you dropped it? also, how about a more dog-related word instead of 'nestled'? a word that makes the reader see a link between the farm house and the dogs, the dogginess about them both... bedded/coiled/curled/settled? dunno, but a word that makes the farm look almost like a dog bedded down on its territory. i prefer 'settled' as it gives an impression of stillness, sorta low-to-the-ground-ness, but with its windows (eyes) watchful as a dog

There was Bernie, the dachshund, who believed he was human
is there a way to show that instead of just tell us?

All personality, so clever and charming
Shivering only when he knew you were watching him
Conning his way inside to lie under the woodstove
there ya go, you showed us. so, then, do you need 'believed he was human'? i don't believe you do: his behaviour in these lines is easy to see as exhibiting human-like characteristics

Momma and daughter sheepdogs, eyes hidden behind grey wool
Large masses of friendly fur, nudging at my legs as I came and went
eyes hidden behind grey wool - okay, you've told us they're sheepdogs, we know what sheepdogs look like... but what if you blend that line with the one underneath, to retain the woolly imagery? we already know their eyes are hidden, but maybe you could introduce an allusion to 'eyes are the windows to the soul' with something like 'thoughts ghosting/Friendly woolly masses nudging at my legs'? 'ghosting' has, for me, a paleness to it that could be interpreted, in this context, as shades of grey.

But it was Joe I loved, with his soft caramel brown eyes that could see my soul.
whose caramel-browns saw my soul? not saying use it, only trying to show briefer can be as effective if not more. 'whose' personifies the dog even more, and 'caramel-browns saw' can really only relate to his eyes.

He liked to greet my celica, resting his large head in my lap, door half open
Erect shepherd ears mobile as I scratched and talked quietly to him.
He joined me on the porch as I drank my tea,
Solid flank against my thigh, sighing deeply as he settled his chin on his paw
i think here you could afford to make it a more immediate, more powerful memory-image by doing something like:
He'd like to greet my celica, rest his great head in my lap,
Erect shepherd ears mobile as I'd scratch them and quietly tell him my day.'lap' shows the N is sitting, and since Joe is at the car we can assume the car door is open and the N is still sat in the car. does cutting 'half-open' create a loss in that line?

And when my tears flowed, Joe the shepherd did not wince when I held him tight
My tears wetting his black and brown shoulder
once again, you could make this tighter by cutting out repetition: you use 'tears' twice, you've already told us he's a shepherd...
And when I held him tight, Joe didn't wince
Let my tears wet his dark shoulder in stoic solidarity

We buried him on the hill above the pond where the guinea hens cry
my favourite line for all it creates: dimension, shape, texture, colour, contrast, sound! height and dynamic shape of the hill (and colour and texture of its grass) in direct contrast to the flat planes of a quiet pond, its own colours depending on time of day but first that springs to mind is a silvery grey in daylight, the contrast in size between a hill, a pond and the guinea hens, the colour and softness of feathers, their voices in contrast to the silence of a pond and a hill... so much in that short line.

He tangled with a car on the road and had died alone.
The grave we dug as big and as deep as for a person. Our Joe.
He was never just a dog.
He made the farm a home.

shortening a line can make it more effective, and reps can make something stronger - it's a balancing act.

A hit-and-run, Joe died alone.
We dug a people-sized grave for our Joe,
Never just a dog,
Who made our farm a home.


'hit-and-run' shows it was a vehicle and we can assume it was on a road
'people-sized' says the same as 'as big and as deep as for a person'


anyways, these are my thoughts on the basics of your piece with no consideration at the moment for musicality/pace. something in there may be useful, some may not suit how you want your piece. whatever rings true for you or clarifies your original choices so you wish to stick with them. thanks for posting your piece here.

 

[cascadiabound]

thank you butters. here is my first stab at revision. what say you?

anyways, these are my thoughts on the basics of your piece with no consideration at the moment for musicality/pace. something in there may be useful, some may not suit how you want your piece. whatever rings true for you or clarifies your original choices so you wish to stick with them. thanks for posting your piece here. [/COLOR]

The farm was my refuge
bedded in the back of a rural route
curled in the Oregon rolling hills
down a long, scrabbled drive
blueberry bushes and pinot gris grapes
fresh eggs from the coop in the woods.
There was Bernie, the dachshund
all personality, so clever and charming
shivering only when he knew you were watching
conning his way to lie under the woodstove.
Momma and daughter sheepdogs
eyes hidden behind grey wool
friendly wooly masses nudging my legs.
But it was Joe I loved,
whose soft caramel-browns saw my soul.
He’d greet my celica, rest his great head in my lap
erect shepherd ears mobile
scratching between his ears
as I quietly shared my day.
He joined me on the porch for tea,
solid flank against my thigh
sighing deeply chin settled on paw.
When I held him tight, Joe didn’t wince
my tears wetting his dark shoulder.
We buried him on the hill
above the pond where the guinea hens cry.
He’d tangled with a car. Joe died alone.
We dug a person-sized grave. Our Joe.
Never just a dog.
He made the farm a home.

 

[butters]

grandbabies just gone home, so first impressions are that you've tightened this a whole lot; the shorter line-lengths works better; those opening 6 lines now hold a whole lot of sound-cohesion. thought 'retreat' may have worked better than 'refuge' but then 'refuge' has that soft 'eff' sound which links directly with 'fresh eggs'. all those r's and b's and l's make this a rolling opening

The farm was my refuge
bedded in the back of a rural route
curled in the Oregon rolling hills
down a long, scrabbled drive
blueberry bushes and pinot gris grapes
fresh eggs from the coop in the woods.

 

[Senna Jawa]

The farm was my refuge

[...]

Earlier, originally you had

The farm was a doggie place
​

Then, you have replaced this chatty phrase by cliche:

The farm was my refuge
​

So much for the beauty of editing . Don't rush. You may modify a poem within five minutes or five days or fifteen years... but don't feel obliged to edit. Especially when your poem is already decent. And if the poem is no good then write it anew from scratch or forget it.

***********************

A poem involves strategy and tactics. It's objective, the author doesn't have to realize it explicitly but it's there. The tactics are related to the strategy. When people advise about tactics they often don't pay attention to the strategy. Then quite often the advice is wrong.

Poetry is not simply poetry. Under the poetry roof, there are several different poetic orbits. A poem may be at a high or low point on its orbit.

Orbits are not (poetically) equal. Some are higher than the other. A poem high on a lower orbit is still way better than the majority on the high orbit because most of the poems are very low on their orbit -- for such poems, it doesn't matter how high is the orbit, their low points are as low as for the low orbits.

Orbits are related to strategy. The (high or low) position of a poem on its orbit is related to tactics.

***********************

cascadiabound, your poem is chatty, a storytelling text and not more (in my opinion). This is a decent poetic orbit while not the highest. Tactically, your poem is at a pretty high point while not perfectly the highest. More about it in an eventual next post.

You have described a pleasant scene: a house away from other, dogs, and a heartbreaking dog's death,

We buried him on the hill above the pond where the guinea hens cry
​

You did a good job (not perfect but still very good).

***********************

Now, you have to decide to edit your poem. Thus, you take the tactical steps, you make lines shorter, you tighten the text.

Now you still have a chatty poem, nothing strategically changed, but now your text sounds choppy like you were either sloppy or too ambitious for your own good or like you were only jotting. The quality of your poem is gone, bye-bye.

***********************

Now you have two options. Make tactical improvements but keep the same strategy, i.e. you will still have a nice (even nicer) chatty story;

or go for a higher orbit. You still can be chatty but perhaps not all the time (it's hard to mix but possible, and the results can be outstanding). If you attempted another orbit then you'd really write a new poem (it would only remind you about your original).

***********************

There are still other topics... -- always .

Regards

 

[cascadiabound]

I am biting my fingers as I read Senna Jawa's post.
reading it again and again.

I know that no one is a perfect expert and in the end I need to trust myself.

I am still wondering about whether or not the original poem was committing the sin of too many pronouns and if I should have worked harder to take them out in the first place.​

I think I am having a hard time seeing or hearing "cliche"
I do not read my replacement first line as a cliche, but it may well be.
Home or sense of home as a refuge is a common understanding. Retreat would be the same.

I think I am going to return it to the original phrase as I really liked it and I was struggling to replace it and I do not like the replacement nearly as well.
I am not sure what that does to the rest of it.

and I am now feeling worried that I have no idea what I am doing and trusting myself even less.

ugh.

 

[butters]

go with what feels right to you. it's your poem

contrasting opinions can cause some head-scratching, but you should never let it make you feel unsure about your own sense of what feels right.

i've found to learn to trust my own judgement, but if 3 poets here whose work i respect all find they have an issue with the same line or phrase it probably needs rewording. it may take me years to revisit and drop a couple of lines, but i'll get there eventually.

 

[Senna Jawa]

I know that no one is a perfect expert [...]

Oh, so dumb of me; after this post, I will say no more. (Still, you may on your own, address some issues not mentioned yet in our two threads).

I am still wondering about whether or not the original poem was committing the sin of too many pronouns and if I should have worked harder to take them out in the first place.​

I don't see any problem with pronouns in your poem.

There is no need to count. It is important that your poem sounds nice, that it has no awkward pronouns sticking out, nor any intensive frequent repetitions like some sentences or phrases infested with the pronouns -- fortunately, you have nothing like this. Pronouns are not a problem here. Actually, the whole poem is nice. If you're ambitious (and why not?!) then you may still go for more than what you already have, your poem is not totally smooth.

[...] trusting myself even less.

Don't waste time on meta-thinking, i.e. about thinking (worrying) about your thinking. Simply think about the poem, and you'll do great.

 

[cascadiabound]

Oh, so dumb of me; after this post, I will say no more. (Still, you may on your own, address some issues not mentioned yet in our two threads).



I don't see any problem with pronouns in your poem.

There is no need to count. It is important that your poem sounds nice, that it has no awkward pronouns sticking out, nor any intensive frequent repetitions like some sentences or phrases infested with the pronouns -- fortunately, you have nothing like this. Pronouns are not a problem here. Actually, the whole poem is nice. [/BI]f you're ambitious (and why not?!) then you may still go for more than what you already have, your poem is not totally smooth.



Don't waste time on meta-thinking, i.e. about thinking (worrying) about your thinking. Simply think about the poem, and you'll do great.

Am I correct that you are commenting on the original version, not the revised?

I guess I am confused. In your finer points thread, you pointed to pronouns being an example of "deadwood" in poetry.
I know how to edit prose. I am having trouble figuring out when a pronoun is deadwood and when it is acceptable in a poem.
I try to juxtapose words in interesting ways. Create an image or a feeling. But mostly my poems are narrarive or emotional catharsis of some kind. Which does not mean I am not interested in improving my efforts.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Am I correct that you are commenting on the original version, not the revised?

Yes, I was writing about the original version.

Remark. U'r confusing me but women are granted the privilege of confusing men hence I'll continue.

[...] when a pronoun is deadwood and when it is acceptable in a poem.

(You could try to single out the worst offenders if any -- it'd be an interesting exercise).

*****************

Poem Joe belongs to the chatty story orbit -- I may be wrong but I don't get anything that goes beyond the literal text; my feelings and thinking are limited to the text as it is. For instance, the Basho crow haiku makes me think about the existence in general, it goes far beyond the crow (I could write quite a bit about Basho crow haiku as I did in the past).

Setting a poem on a chatty story orbit immediately changes the poetic game, it requires much less discipline and attempts at a tighter discipline are likely to backfire as it has happened with your new (tighter) version. Poetry is hard (how strange ) and talking about poetry is not simple, and I don't have the ability to be succinct while covering all possibilities -- thus I assumed without telling you that we are talking about the highest orbit rather than still nice chatty story orbit.

***************

Let's talk about cs-orbit for the chatty story, and a-orbit for the ambitious orbit. Cs-orbit can be nice (when at its height) as in the case of Joe.

A possible way to write a similar but a-orbit poem would be perhaps to casually mention some things which otherwise are serious. It would serve as a discrete introduction to your present text. Then your story could induce reader's thoughts which would associate with the things from the introduction.

This would not be the cleanest way to make the poem go beyond its literal scope. The Basho's crow haiku didn't need no introduction. Also, I remember two poems by Michael McNeilley, they had nothing but simple narration. Michael told me, once I have a metaphor... These two poems were great because there was no metaphor inside the text, the whole poem served as a metaphor (I need to find these poems in rec.arts.poems archive).

I try to juxtapose words in interesting ways.

Fortunately, I didn't see you doing it. "Interesting" should be a byproduct of some profound observations and similar. Then interesting words and combination come naturally. When "interesting" is done for the sake of being interesting then it's not interesting to me, just the opposite.

And since you have mentioned juxtaposition, it is the most basic poetic tool for the past twenty five centuries. In poetry, juxtaposition stands for a special kind of juxtaposition, when you present side by side the human affairs and Nature. The human oart and the Nature part don't overlap, they don't say the same (that would be in effect a simile) but they complement ech other.