Mass shootings in New Zealand mosques

[HisArpy]

Also, you want an ad hominem attack? Here it is - I'd call you a cock, except I actually quite like penises. You're an opportunist fuckwit attempting to use an actual fucking tragedy to push your warped political agenda, just like BusyBody and BotanyBoy. You lot have no interest in actually see these events minimised, because then you'd lose the ammunition you need to continue to spread your fucking righteous stupidity.
I'm not giving you the benefit of a response any more - it's just providing your twisted logic with oxygen.

Ad Hom is not an argument. It only proves you don't have one.

 

[GILFinTEXAS]

Im a rancher, I own 2 dozen guns. My friends own guns. My employees own guns. Everyone in my zip code and surrounding zip codes own guns. The next time any of those guns do harm, will be the first time.

Screaming about guns is akin to screaming at shareholders of GM if a Checy truck runs someone over. It is a mark of having nothing to say but by gum you will say nothing and repeat it

 

[silver gurl]

And you think Antifa doesn't do the same when it comes to Conservative speech? Or that AOC isn't like that too? Or Talib? Or Mad Maxine? Or CNN and the rest of the legacy media?

Oh, it's different you say. They're not "the leader of the free world". Right? Except they have just as big a microphone and there's a LOT MORE OF THEM than just DJT.

HATE comes from people who hate. It doesn't matter what skin color, religious belief, or national origin, HATE shows up everywhere. And, when you look for it, you tend to find it every place you look if you want to badly enough.

Guess how hard everyone is looking to find hate on the part of Trump while ignoring the real sources.

I agree about people who hate. But Trump has set the pace and it is has become acceptable. He should be above and beyond.

 

[KimGordon67]

Im a rancher, I own 2 dozen guns. My friends own guns. My employees own guns. Everyone in my zip code and surrounding zip codes own guns. The next time any of those guns do harm, will be the first time.

Screaming about guns is akin to screaming at shareholders of GM if a Checy truck runs someone over. It is a mark of having nothing to say but by gum you will say nothing and repeat it

You've also latched onto the only gun-related post I made ... there's plenty to say, and it's being said, and the things that are being said range far and wide. And no one is 'screaming' about guns. Our PM doesn't tend to 'scream' about anything.

The last time our gun laws were tightened was after the last mass shooting we had at Aramoana. That was nearly 30 years ago. Yep, we haven't had a mass shooting in 30 years. Because ... you know, gun laws. Yesterday demonstrated that the gun laws haven't kept pace with technological developments, and today our PM said that'll be addressed.

No one in NZ 'needs' a gun. Our biggest fucking predator is a stoat, and that was introduced. So none of the arguments about the 'need' for guns hold here. No one in NZ thinks gun ownership is a 'right'. I would be extremely surprised if there's much resistance to a change in the laws - probably some, but not much.

Ardern's reaction is entirely appropriate in the circumstances.

 

[HisArpy]

I agree about people who hate. But Trump has set the pace and it is has become acceptable. He should be above and beyond.

Trump has been misconstrued since day 1.

Let's take the "there are bad people and good people on both sides" comment as an example of how he's been misconstrued.

You know Trump is rich. Being rich he's a target for anyone who can fabricate any excuse to sue him. ONE of the more common excuses to sue the rich who give public statements is defamation.

So, rather than set himself up for such a suit, Trump says that everyone is a good person. You can't sue someone who just said you were a good person so Trump has created a speaking habit and uses that term whenever he is asked about the character of someone else.

Kim. Putin. The Charlottesville protesters.

Imagine how easy it would be to seize on the statement that someone is a good person and then contrast it against your own statement that any one of the above is an evil person. It's not that far to then say that Trump is in league with those evil persons and that he supports the evil committed by those persons.

Yet, there's not a shred of evidence for either contention except what you say. And then, if you repeat it often enough, the dunderheads who cannot think for themselves begin to repeat it. Repeat it often enough and it begins to have the feel of truth. Even if it's built on a lie.

Enter the "Trump spews hate" narrative.

Yes, there are other things one can point to which maybe haven't been misconstrued. That doesn't mean Trump set the bar. Only that if you look hard enough, you can find what you're looking for everywhere you look. Especially if you rely on the first lie as proof and a reason to keep repeating it.

 

[Que]

Congratulations for proving in one event that "gun control" laws are meaningless, especially in keeping guns the hands of a determined mass murder.

Also, in one event, New Zealand now moves wayyyy up the list for both mass shootings per capita, and "gun violence" per capita.

You have harangued Americans based on idiotically irrelevant statistics skewed wildly by both suicides and gang violence in large cities run by progressives.

You don't get to pretend statistics in isolation mean anything and now believe New Zealand si safer from "gun violence" than America, or that you are safer because 95% of your population is disarmed.

Yes, this post is insensitive. So are the predictable posts advocating America disarm everytime some nut commits an atrocity in America. Live by politicizing tragedies, reap the well-earned response.

Also: according to The New Zealand Herald, in unarmed New Zealand, a good guy with a gun took a couple of shots.

It's a damned shame New Zealand does not have the NRA to scapegoat although, predictably, On Approved Credit tried that tired response.

 

[Que]

Trump has been misconstrued since day 1.

Let's take the "there are bad people and good people on both sides" comment as an example of how he's been misconstrued.

You know Trump is rich. Being rich he's a target for anyone who can fabricate any excuse to sue him. ONE of the more common excuses to sue the rich who give public statements is defamation.

So, rather than set himself up for such a suit, Trump says that everyone is a good person. You can't sue someone who just said you were a good person so Trump has created a speaking habit and uses that term whenever he is asked about the character of someone else.

Kim. Putin. The Charlottesville protesters.

Imagine how easy it would be to seize on the statement that someone is a good person and then contrast it against your own statement that any one of the above is an evil person. It's not that far to then say that Trump is in league with those evil persons and that he supports the evil committed by those persons.

Yet, there's not a shred of evidence for either contention except what you say. And then, if you repeat it often enough, the dunderheads who cannot think for themselves begin to repeat it. Repeat it often enough and it begins to have the feel of truth. Even if it's built on a lie.

Enter the "Trump spews hate" narrative.

Yes, there are other things one can point to which maybe haven't been misconstrued. That doesn't mean Trump set the bar. Only that if you look hard enough, you can find what you're looking for everywhere you look. Especially if you rely on the first lie as proof and a reason to keep repeating it.

It goes beyond that. In the Charlottesville incident he was specifically talking about the fact that there are good people on the pro taking down Confederate statues side as well as the opposed to taking down statues side.

He was making the point that those that have objected to taking down the statues were not responsible for the actions of those who were actually espousing racist ideologies.

The question he was asked had to do with the charge that those objecting to revising history and whitewashing the past created the environment that invited those that did what they did at the rally.

 

[jomar]

Trump has been misconstrued since day 1.

Let's take the "there are bad people and good people on both sides" comment as an example of how he's been misconstrued.

You know Trump is rich. Being rich he's a target for anyone who can fabricate any excuse to sue him. ONE of the more common excuses to sue the rich who give public statements is defamation.

So, rather than set himself up for such a suit, Trump says that everyone is a good person. You can't sue someone who just said you were a good person so Trump has created a speaking habit and uses that term whenever he is asked about the character of someone else.

Kim. Putin. The Charlottesville protesters.

Imagine how easy it would be to seize on the statement that someone is a good person and then contrast it against your own statement that any one of the above is an evil person. It's not that far to then say that Trump is in league with those evil persons and that he supports the evil committed by those persons.

Yet, there's not a shred of evidence for either contention except what you say. And then, if you repeat it often enough, the dunderheads who cannot think for themselves begin to repeat it. Repeat it often enough and it begins to have the feel of truth. Even if it's built on a lie.

Enter the "Trump spews hate" narrative.

Yes, there are other things one can point to which maybe haven't been misconstrued. That doesn't mean Trump set the bar. Only that if you look hard enough, you can find what you're looking for everywhere you look. Especially if you rely on the first lie as proof and a reason to keep repeating it.

You’re a Trump apologist, got it.

 

[Que]

Somewhat negating the point above, the suspect was apparently trying to demonstrate exactly that. Making it a bit self-serving, but no less valid.

Until recently, police in New Zealand have not felt the need to carry firearms on duty. Last month, however, the Canterbury district on New Zealand's southern island broke with that protocol after a series of incidents that left one shooting suspect on the loose.

At the time, New Zealand Police Association President Chris Cahill told Reuters that "more and more policemen are finding criminals with guns, so unless we find a way of stopping these firearms from reaching, them we will have no other choice but to arm our officers."

Local media reported that approximately 1.5 million firearms are held by civilians in the country, averaging out to approximately one gun per three people in the country of around 5 million.

Rigorous anti-gun laws and no constitutional recognition of the natural human right to self-defense has resulted in enough guns to arm 1/3 of the populace, but only 1/20 of the citizenry actually complying with licensing requirements.

I don't have the source handing but about 5% of the people in New Zealand have valid gun permits.

 

[Dribble]

Ever been to New Zealand Que?

 

[KimGordon67]

Somewhat negating the point above, the suspect was apparently trying to demonstrate exactly that. Making it a bit self-serving, but no less valid.



Rigorous anti-gun laws and no constitutional recognition of the natural human right to self-defense has resulted in enough guns to arm 1/3 of the populace, but only 1/20 of the citizenry actually complying with licensing requirements.

I don't have the source handing but about 5% of the people in New Zealand have valid gun permits.

Oh my fucking god ... the fact that the figures 'averages out' to one in three doesn't mean that every third person actually owns a gun.

 

[KeithD]

Im a rancher, I own 2 dozen guns. My friends own guns. My employees own guns. Everyone in my zip code and surrounding zip codes own guns. The next time any of those guns do harm, will be the first time.

Screaming about guns is akin to screaming at shareholders of GM if a Checy truck runs someone over. It is a mark of having nothing to say but by gum you will say nothing and repeat it

Any of you own AR-15s? If so, why?

 

[girlsmiley]

I’m not really interested in reading “multiculturalism is a killer” or “diversity is to blame.” I’m not interested in reading a stupid manifesto full of crap.

No, let’s read about facts, because until all the facts are in, we cannot possibly determine why this has happened.

The bloke was living in Dunedin. He’s a white supremacist, Australian born man who was living in New Zealand. He wasn’t on any watch lists, either here or in New Zealand, and he’s just appeared in court.

Only media and police were allowed inside. He’s described as a short, white man, remanded in custody, he didn’t say anything. He was charged with one count of murder.

A man who was driving along the road when this incident occurred, Carl, said in an interview that he saw people running for their lives. He stopped to help, and witnessed people dying. He said a worker cradled a gentleman in his arms and told him he was going to be fine and to keep breathing. But he died. The man put his high vis vest over his face out of respect.

Carl said that there were only 5 or 6 civilians helping for the first 10 minutes at the Al Noor Mosque, and a few police officers. No one was allowed in. Ambulance services weren’t allowed in until it was deemed safe, which was around 25 minutes after the attack. 87 people were presented to hospitals. 41 are still in hospital and 2 are critical, including a child.

#hellobrother

People have gathered and there’s hugs and singing beside an impromptu memorial just up the road from the mosque.

 

[KimGordon67]

Congratulations for proving in one event that "gun control" laws are meaningless, especially in keeping guns the hands of a determined mass murder.

Also, in one event, New Zealand now moves wayyyy up the list for both mass shootings per capita, and "gun violence" per capita.

You have harangued Americans based on idiotically irrelevant statistics skewed wildly by both suicides and gang violence in large cities run by progressives.

You don't get to pretend statistics in isolation mean anything and now believe New Zealand si safer from "gun violence" than America, or that you are safer because 95% of your population is disarmed.

Yes, this post is insensitive. So are the predictable posts advocating America disarm everytime some nut commits an atrocity in America. Live by politicizing tragedies, reap the well-earned response.

Also: according to The New Zealand Herald, in unarmed New Zealand, a good guy with a gun took a couple of shots.

It's a damned shame New Zealand does not have the NRA to scapegoat although, predictably, On Approved Credit tried that tired response.

There isn't a law in existence that's 100% effective. Surely even you understand that. As noted above, we haven't changed our gun laws in 30 years. Since the last mass shooting. So this happens and we can either (a) take some decisive action that will hopefully result in another 30 years of no mass shootings, if not more; or (b) send some thoughts and prayers.

Given that, according to you, a third of our population own guns, it's a bit surprising there was only one 'good guy with a gun' eh? Your argument that high levels of gun ownership make everyone safer doesn't really seem to hold.
You can't have it both ways - either the gun control laws work, and we aren't a heavily armed population, or there's a huge level of gun ownership here and everyone should be safe as a result.

 

[KimGordon67]

I’m not really interested in reading “multiculturalism is a killer” or “diversity is to blame.” I’m not interested in reading a stupid manifesto full of crap.

No, let’s read about facts, because until all the facts are in, we cannot possibly determine why this has happened.

The bloke was living in Dunedin. He’s a white supremacist, Australian born man who was living in New Zealand. He wasn’t on any watch lists, either here or in New Zealand, and he’s just appeared in court.

Only media and police were allowed inside. He’s described as a short, white man, remanded in custody, he didn’t say anything. He was charged with one count of murder.

A man who was driving along the road when this incident occurred, Carl, said in an interview that he saw people running for their lives. He stopped to help, and witnessed -first hand- people dying. He said a worker cradled a gentleman in his arms and told him he was going to be fine and to keep breathing. But he died. The man put his high vis vest over his face out of respect.

Carl said that there were only 5 or 6 civilians helping for the first 10 minutes at the El nor Mosque, and a few police officers. No one was allowed in. Ambulance services weren’t allowed in until it was deemed safe, which was around 25 minutes after the attack. 87 people were presented to hospitals. 41 are still in hospital and 2 are critical, including a child.

#hellobrother

People have gathered and there’s hugs and singing beside an impromptu memorial just up the road from the mosque.

 

[Que]

Oh my fucking god ... the fact that the figures 'averages out' to one in three doesn't mean that every third person actually owns a gun.

Even the figure for the number of guns in NZ is an extrapolation from 30 year old research, and probably an over-estimate.

I never heard you expressing any such doubts about the very likely accurate estimate that America has more guns than people.

An M1911 on .45ACP is so-named because the evil, semi-automatic handgun was first produced 108 years ago. Examples from the last 100 years of production can fairly reliably be considered functional. My Grandfather was sent home with his World War 1 1908 Springfield rifle. I would have no concerns about firing at if it was still in the family today.

It's ridiculous to assert anything but the likelyhood is that every gun that ever came to New Zealand is still there somewhere. There would be absolutely no reason for anyone who owns a firearm prior to it becoming illegal to quietly dispose of it himself without openly and publicly doing so, so that it would never be traced to him and there would never be a question that he had some unregistered firearm somewhere. They are in hiding, sold at a premium to criminals, stolen by criminals (see article) or they were turned in..those are your only choices.

Regardless.

HUGE disparity (as there always is) in the number of sheep that comply, versus the number of armed citizens that exist prior to such immoral disarming of a population.

You should sure love statistics unless they show something you don't like.

Australia estimated that they got maybe one in five guns when they banned them.

As I've explained to you ad infinitum the absolutely only reason that you have such a low gun murder rate is because you have such a low murder rate. You have less people in your country interested in murdering other people.

A guns highest and best uses are self-defense, liberating a population from tyranny, preventing the tyranny of the majority, and ensuring a peaceful, orderly, polite society. A gun is completely unnecessary for premeditated murder.

 

[Dribble]

Preventing tyranny. Wanna share those drugs?

 

[KimGordon67]

I never heard you expressing any such doubts about the very likely accurate estimate that America has more guns than people.

An M1911 on .45ACP is so-named because the evil, semi-automatic handgun was first produced 108 years ago. Examples from the last 100 years of production can fairly reliably be considered functional. My Grandfather was sent home with his World War 1 1908 Springfield rifle. I would have no concerns about firing at if it was still in the family today.

It's ridiculous to assert anything but the likelyhood is that every gun that ever came to New Zealand is still there somewhere. There would be absolutely no reason for anyone who owns a firearm prior to it becoming illegal to quietly dispose of it himself without openly and publicly doing so, so that it would never be traced to him and there would never be a question that he had some unregistered firearm somewhere. They are in hiding, sold at a premium to criminals, stolen by criminals (see article) or they were turned in..those are your only choices.

Regardless.

HUGE disparity (as there always is) in the number of sheep that comply, versus the number of armed citizens that exist prior to such immoral disarming of a population.

You should sure love statistics unless they show something you don't like.

Australia estimated that they got maybe one in five guns when they banned them.

As I've explained to you ad infinitum the absolutely only reason that you have such a low gun murder rate is because you have such a low murder rate. You have less people in your country interested in murdering other people.

A guns highest and best uses are self-defense, liberating a population from tyranny, preventing the tyranny of the majority, and ensuring a peaceful, orderly, polite society. A gun is completely unnecessary for premeditated murder.

I don't think I have ever in my life said, or even implied, that every American owns a gun. Statistically speaking, I'm not really super interested in how many guns there are - I'm interesting in how many people own guns. I'm pretty sure every argument I've ever made about the American contexts has been about the high levels of gun ownership, and the psychology created by the assumption that everyone has the 'right' to own a gun.

You can keep explaining it as long as you want, but the rates of homicide by gun vs any other potential weapon suggest that guns make homicide easier than any other weapon. The easier you make homicide, the more likely it is to occur. Much the same as burglary - we all know a burglar could get into our house if they really wanted to. The reason we locked stuff is to deter those who don't have the level of commitment to get past a locked a window.

I'm pleased that our PM is taking a range of decisive actions, including (but not limited to) a commitment to tighten the gun control laws. The proof will be in the pudding - it's a strategy that worked after Aramoana, and I truly hope that it's a strategy that will work this time too.

I can't be arsed engaging with the rest of your argument for the nth time. I have nothing new to add, and to be honest, better things to think about right now. You can rant on with your 'protection against tyranny' argument as much as you want ... I really don't care.

 

[KimGordon67]

Preventing tyranny. Wanna share those drugs?

I did think about asking how that 'gun ownership protecting against tyranny' was working out for him, given our current differences in leadership. It's probably not necessary though. I'm just glad that taking a stand regarding gun control doesn't come with the risk of losing an election.

 

[Que]

There isn't a law in existence that's 100% effective. Surely even you understand that. As noted above, we haven't changed our gun laws in 30 years. Since the last mass shooting. So this happens and we can either (a) take some decisive action that will hopefully result in another 30 years of no mass shootings, if not more; or (b) send some thoughts and prayers.

Given that, according to you, a third of our population own guns, it's a bit surprising there was only one 'good guy with a gun' eh? Your argument that high levels of gun ownership make everyone safer doesn't really seem to hold.
You can't have it both ways - either the gun control laws work, and we aren't a heavily armed population, or there's a huge level of gun ownership here and everyone should be safe as a result.

Oh.

Well then.

I'll leave you to get busy taking "decisive ACTION!"

For what it was worth your society was already going in the "wrong" direction (according to you) with the police arming themselves in face of the obvious in an "unarmed" society..that is, only outlaws have guns when guns are outlawed. This senseless "escalation" has to end, right?

Maybe if you "decisively" disarm the 5% of your citizens that were so law-abiding and compliant with authority that they told your government exactly who they are, what they have, and where they live.

Now that your policemen have sensibly armed themselves and you obviously have lists of the registered gun owners in the country I don't see why you can't take decisive action today. Go pick them all up today. I'm sure it'll make you much safer.

I mean, you can't just do nothing. You have to make some sort of meaningless gesture or you don't care.

In a country as safe and is unarmed as New Zealand is what possible excuse could you have for allowing 5% of your citizens to be armed.?? Think about the other 95%. Don't they have right to live in a peaceful Society free from the worry that their neighbor has a gun?. You people are monsters.

Maybe you can get a collection of high school students together and demand that the adults disarm because reasons.

On a personal note: given that more likely than not you will probably find in the coming days and weeks that you have some sort of connection to some lost in this tragedy. How does it feel to have somebody not of your country not involve the tragedy, who doesn't know any of the people involved carping at you and politicizing the incident? You like it much? Personally, I always found it distasteful.

Given the disproportionate rates of incarceration of the Maoris there, I don't know how you as a white person can feel anything less than complicit in the environment that fostered the white nationalism that led this person to commit this atrocity. I mean sure this guy was not in any way shape or form a participant in New Zealand society..wasn't even a citizen but we really shouldn't start labeling people as Citizens vs. Undocumented should we?

 

[Salacious_B_Crumb]

I got guns, they're fun and I won't starve and I'll have half a chance during the zombie apocalypse. Never murder with a gun. If you absolutely have to murder it needs to be up close and personal. Earn it.
Anyway yeah condolences to the kiwis cuz that shit sucks. Dude is a straight up piece of shit. Sounds like he always was.

 

[Januari]

Hello gs. It is only normal in the US because we have so many "isolated" events. We have the act down. Tears. Flags at half mast. Gun debates. Inaction. Repeat.

The US is not alone in dealing with this problem. France. UK. Germany. Now NZ. Few in the world are isolated with the Facebooks and other social media. ISIS was/is recruiting suburban youth from thousands of miles away. A global problem.

Peace to you and yours.

You forgot a step: Tears. Flags at half mast. Thoughts and Prayers. Gun debates. Inaction. Repeat.

And President Trump was named as a source of inspiration in the manifesto. 'Murica.

 

[Que]

Preventing tyranny. Wanna share those drugs?

That's a pretty stunning display of ignorance of history not to mention current events. How safe are residents in gun-free Mexico? How likely are people in Venezuela who are unarmed to be able to protect their actual elected leader?

I realize that you chose an apt name, but even for you that was poorly thought out.

 

[Que]

You forgot a step: Tears. Flags at half mast. Thoughts and Prayers. Gun debates. Inaction. Repeat.

And President Trump was named as a source of inspiration in the manifesto. 'Murica.

On it!

 

[Salacious_B_Crumb]

Fucking Facebook is the problem. Twitter and Instagram, too. Fuckers doing this shit for fame and letting the world watch real-time. That's a problem that needs to be dealt with.
Crazy white dude is the biggest part of the problem but one thing at a time.