Western Dialogue

[gordo12]

So I tried my hand at writing a Western, which maybe should have been an Eastern.

My period dialogue comes straight from Hollywood shows. If you were writing would you try using that or just write it in today's English?

It's not like there are experts around if you try using the Hollywood shit.

Sample:
“You hush now ma,” he said stroking her skeletal hand, tears running down his cheeks. “Yer gonna git better and dance at ma weddin.”

 

[ElectricBlue]

The trick would be to get the right mix of period era readability without it turning into parody or bad TV cliche. I don't think twenty-first century dialogue would work at all - it would read anachronistically very quickly, I reckon.

I had the same issue in my Arthurian myth cycle thing, set in the Fifth Century. My solution was to write quite natural dialogue but with some key indicators "that it's not English as you speak it now," like yeay instead of yes, slightly unusual sentence constructions, more poetry in the dialogue. For example:

Nyneve, Vivyane's elder sister and Nymue's aunt, watched the girl as she grew from a child into a young woman, and saw her solitude and inner strength. "She will be a powerful one, the spirit moves within her and she has seen the Goddess," Nyneve counselled, and the two older women wondered how best to guide the girl. "She is young, only nineteen years, but nearly ready, I think, for the ceremony of the midsummer sun."

Vivyane looked closely at her sister. "Do you think so, truly? So soon?"

"Nymue is different, she knows songs from our Mother and also from the ancient fathers. She walks in circles and straight lines. She is fire and water both; tree and stone. I've not seen it before." Nyneve paused, deep in thought. "Her moon curse was unusual, blooded by water under a burning sky, and her hair is bled white. And remember what she said in her trance: the dragen comes? The girl is different, Sister, she will go beyond us."

Vivyane was torn. She was priestess and mother both, and remembered the tiny babe at her breast, all those years ago. "She's my little girl." Vivyane gazed into the fire in front of them. "She's still my little girl."

 

[SamScribble]

What Blue said.

Also, think Deadwood. A very successful script - full of profanities, but modern ones.

 

[TxRad]

There was a western story event held early last year. It might give you some ideas of what was/is used.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think a good general rule with trying to render dialect is that a little goes a long way. You want to be authentic, but if you try too hard it looks comical.

Mark Twain in Huckleberry Finn did a great job of rendering dialects, but he was a genius and trying to emulate him is hazardous. Attempts to do what he did are likely to result in low comedy or frustration at getting through incomprehensible words.

I think a good guide for western dialogue is Larry McMurtry in Lonesome Dove and his other western novels. He incorporates "westernisms", but not too many of them. He writes "'em" in place of "them", but generally speaking, the dialogue is written in correct English. There's just enough touch of regional dialect that you get the point.

I would write your sentence this way:

“You hush now, ma,” he said, stroking her skeletal hand, tears running down his cheeks. “You're gonna get better and dance at my weddin'.”

I don't think you need to write "git" over "get" in this case. There's no reason to write "ma" instead of "my." "Gonna" and "weddin'" do the trick sufficiently. Write the rest of it in a standard way. Your readers will appreciate you because it won't be such a tough slog getting through all that unconventional spelling and punctuation. With a few bows in your writing to western pronunciation, your readers will understand and they'll read it as you want to convey it.

 

[gordo12]

There was a western story event held early last year. It might give you some ideas of what was/is used.

Yeah that's what got me started but the original story went sideways and I chickened out of posting it. I've since written 3 or 4 more and would like to do something with them, but I keep looking at the dialogue and liking/not liking it.

I'm thinking back to the Aussie event. There was one story that was heavy with Aussie slang. I found myself guessing at a lot of it. I liked the story and the wording, but at the same time it detracted somewhat from the enjoyment and slowed me down.

That's sort of where my head's at with this. I will go back and read more of the western stories I never finished them all. That's a good suggestion.

 

[gordo12]

I think a good general rule with trying to render dialect is that a little goes a long way. You want to be authentic, but if you try too hard it looks comical.

Mark Twain in Huckleberry Finn did a great job of rendering dialects, but he was a genius and trying to emulate him is hazardous. Attempts to do what he did are likely to result in low comedy or frustration at getting through incomprehensible words.

I think a good guide for western dialogue is Larry McMurtry in Lonesome Dove and his other western novels. He incorporates "westernisms", but not too many of them. He writes "'em" in place of "them", but generally speaking, the dialogue is written in correct English. There's just enough touch of regional dialect that you get the point.

I would write your sentence this way:

“You hush now, ma,” he said, stroking her skeletal hand, tears running down his cheeks. “You're gonna get better and dance at my weddin'.”

I don't think you need to write "git" over "get" in this case. There's no reason to write "ma" instead of "my." "Gonna" and "weddin'" do the trick sufficiently. Write the rest of it in a standard way. Your readers will appreciate you because it won't be such a tough slog getting through all that unconventional spelling and punctuation. With a few bows in your writing to western pronunciation, your readers will understand and they'll read it as you want to convey it.

I like that. The changes were getting out of control for my tastes. Once you start it's like you have to change almost everything to match some perceived slang that I'm not even sure was ever used.

Good suggestion!

 

[NotWise]

So I tried my hand at writing a Western, which maybe should have been an Eastern.

My period dialogue comes straight from Hollywood shows. If you were writing would you try using that or just write it in today's English?

It's not like there are experts around if you try using the Hollywood shit.

Sample:
“You hush now ma,” he said stroking her skeletal hand, tears running down his cheeks. “Yer gonna git better and dance at ma weddin.”

I think your first priority should be to tell the story. Maybe add some dialect to add color, but don't go to anything hard to understand. The Western (or Eastern) has to be about the setting and the story. Don't worry so much about the language.

 

[Hypoxia]

Westerners and Westernisms varied widely over time and place -- and no, don't use cowboy movies as textbooks. (Except maybe Blazing Saddles.) Many 'pilgrims' were educated Easterners who spoke formally. Many cowboys were rebel deserters, ex-slaves, or migrant Mexicans. Many ranchers and farmers were European expats -- more than a few cattle barons were exiled Brit nobles. Miners might be Cornish, French, or Chilean. Don't forget the Irish and Chinese laboring forces.

Figure that in pre-1900 western America, everyone but Indians came from elsewhere, and brought their speech and cultural patterns with them. Billy the Kid was from New Jersey, same as Roy Rogers. Buffalo Bill Cody grew up in Toronto. Dag-nab-it!

 

[KeithD]

I write Westerners (about to submit chapters of one later this month) but make no effort to particularize the dialogue. Most of my extended family is in Colorado and I have a ranch there I visit from time to time. I've been East or outside the States most of my life (after being born on the West coast and living there the first four years). I (and my kids) are accused of having British accents whenever we come back from tours abroad, but other than that, I don't notice differences in speech patterns with my Colorado relatives. One branch of the family went there from the South in the last half of the 19th century (although they'd recently come from England--Devon). And the other branch went there in the 1920s from the Midwest. The Midwest relations are the ones who seemed to have some distinctive accents and phrases.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Consider writing about an English king during the Hundred Years‘ War. Facing a much larger French army, the dialogue goes one of two ways:

ONE

WESTMORELAND
O that we now had here
But one ten thousand of those men in England
That do no work to-day!

KING HENRY
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day!


TWO

WESTMORLAND
It’s six-to-one against us. We’re fucked!

KING HENRY
The hell you say. Let’s get out there and kill some frogs!


Advantages and disadvantages to both, as can easily be seen.

 

[Handley_Page]

Consider writing about an English king during the Hundred Years‘ War. Facing a much larger French army, the dialogue goes one of two ways:

ONE

WESTMORELAND
O that we now had here
But one ten thousand of those men in England
That do no work to-day!

KING HENRY
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day!


TWO

WESTMORLAND
It’s six-to-one against us. We’re fucked!

KING HENRY
The hell you say. Let’s get out there and kill some frogs!


Advantages and disadvantages to both, as can easily be seen.

Love it !

I reckon that if the OP puts the odd word/s in, to get the general meaning accross, you'll be right,
" if'n you get me meanin' ".

 

[Hypoxia]

Also keep in mind that our images and storylines of The Old West are entirely fabricated by media. Penny novels way back when, and traveling shows and sideshows, then stage and screen fantasies, and steady flows of pulp fiction. Contemporary accounts paint rather different pictures.

Stick a story in a stereotyped setting and readers will feel comfortable. Truth.

 

[gordo12]

I downloaded three westerns last night on my kindle and I'm half way thru the third one.

Surprisingly little effort to keep it period orientated. 1800's just after the civil war. The English is almost normal.

"I'm standing right here!" is one example.

Divorce talked about as if there were little consequence or problems.

These were the #1 selling series at one point.

 

[NotWise]

I downloaded three westerns last night on my kindle and I'm half way thru the third one.

Surprisingly little effort to keep it period orientated. 1800's just after the civil war. The English is almost normal.

"I'm standing right here!" is one example.

Divorce talked about as if there were little consequence or problems.

These were the #1 selling series at one point.

Maybe the "divorce" they were talking about involved a gun.

The "western" setting is fairly imaginary--except that movies were often filmed on site. To be realistic, cowboys before about 1920 probably would have been Mexican, and would have been called vaqueros.

Even the "cowboy hat" is something of a fiction. It originated as a sombrero. Look at some of the early Tom Mix silent films. It more recently developed a crease on top and turned up sides, and folks like Stetson started making them from things other than straw.

Working cowboys I've seen/known are more likely to wear a baseball cap -- but not backwards. Cowboy hats are for show. My brother-in-law sometimes wears his Stetson when he comes to town.

"Cowboy boots" are also a Mexican invention that were originally for horseback riding and nothing else. The pointed toe and tall heel were to better fit into and hold a stirrup. They weren't a fashion statement. They're uncomfortable for walking and their leather soles don't wear well -- especially on rocky terrain.

 

[Hypoxia]

How much reality can a 'Western' erotic fantasy stand? That depends on what the author wants to say, hey? The story sets the level of authenticity. And as with IRL Incest, too much of The Old West is brutal, so we're in LIT fantasyland again, all hot-n-horny. Saddle up and ride-em!

 

[NotWise]

How much reality can a 'Western' erotic fantasy stand? That depends on what the author wants to say, hey? The story sets the level of authenticity. And as with IRL Incest, too much of The Old West is brutal, so we're in LIT fantasyland again, all hot-n-horny. Saddle up and ride-em!

Just keep the sand out of sensitive places.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Divorce talked about as if there were little consequence or problems.

That's not historically credible, then, given that divorce in the nineteenth century was rare, difficult to get, and left women societally disadvantaged. Unless shooting your first wife was considered a divorce, I guess...

I know a number of writers who have been savaged when they got one tiny detail of a period piece wrong. Just writing a twenty-first century character and putting her in a pinafore dress isn't quite enough to establish it as a period piece - I reckon you've got to get one or two details that sound vaguely convincing.

 

[Hypoxia]

That's not historically credible, then, given that divorce in the nineteenth century was rare, difficult to get, and left women societally disadvantaged. Unless shooting your first wife was considered a divorce, I guess...

It was often shoe-leather divorce: abandonment. That's one reason a scholar in 1850 estimated that two percent of adult women in the United States were paid prostitutes. That number may have reached five percent or more by the end of the century. One in twenty.

Legal divorce has been common since colonial days (The Puritan Divorce Allows Escape From the Chain of Matrimony) and became more so in Old West times:

By the mid- to late 19th century divorce rates in the United States increased at a relatively rapid rate, and during that period on an annual basis Americans obtained more divorces than were granted in all of Europe.​

Marriage and divorce have complex histories here. Be careful what you assume.

 

[Pocketshaver]

what you need to do is watch westerns made before 1950. MOST of those actors were alive and well BEFORE Victoria died. A lot of out of work Victorian cow hands earned money as extras on sets.

And the "help" about period language, yes each period will have its own pronounciation of things, but the SPELLING on paper DOESNT MATCH THE WAY ITS SPOKEN

 

[gordo12]

That's not historically credible, then, given that divorce in the nineteenth century was rare, difficult to get, and left women societally disadvantaged. Unless shooting your first wife was considered a divorce, I guess....

Exactly. Many states you had to apply to the gov for a divorce. Not very common at all. In this series it was written up like a modern divorce. Two lawyers, a judge, property split and a divorce agreement. It was completely jarring.

It was often shoe-leather divorce: abandonment. That's one reason a scholar in 1850 estimated that two percent of adult women in the United States were paid prostitutes. That number may have reached five percent or more by the end of the century. One in twenty.

Legal divorce has been common since colonial days (The Puritan Divorce Allows Escape From the Chain of Matrimony) and became more so in Old West times:

By the mid- to late 19th century divorce rates in the United States increased at a relatively rapid rate, and during that period on an annual basis Americans obtained more divorces than were granted in all of Europe.​

Marriage and divorce have complex histories here. Be careful what you assume.

Women were often driven into prostitution by the death of a spouse and the limited options available for working after in small towns.

what you need to do is watch westerns made before 1950. MOST of those actors were alive and well BEFORE Victoria died. A lot of out of work Victorian cow hands earned money as extras on sets.

And the "help" about period language, yes each period will have its own pronounciation of things, but the SPELLING on paper DOESNT MATCH THE WAY ITS SPOKEN

No it doesn't match. That's what I was trying to accomplish. But I feel I was going too far. Do you have any examples of how things were spelled and pronounced?

When you add up all the different cultures previously mentioned, the local language could have ranged all over the map. Our idea of that today is driven by the media we watched, in my case starting back in the late 50's and 60's. Protestant white male. White meant good and black meant bad.

Everything I know about the old west is a Hollywood cliché. But without research everything everybody else knows is also a cliché.

I think as along as the basics are there, horse, gun, femme fatale, whiskey, beer and a light touch on the language it should come out alright.

Definitely no cowboys sitting around the campfire scrapping out the remains of his yogurt cup

 

[Hypoxia]

Everything I know about the old west is a Hollywood cliché. But without research everything everybody else knows is also a cliché.

I've been slowly cooking a story of an actual Old Hollywood guy who helped create the clichés. History mattered less than film rentals and ticket sales, of course. But he noted that when a country was on the brink of civil war or revolution, many more copies of VIVA VILLA! (about Pancho Villa and Mexican revolutions) were ordered. Fiction breeds reality.

I think as along as the basics are there, horse, gun, femme fatale, whiskey, beer and a light touch on the language it should come out alright.

Exploit the stereotypes and you can't go wrong, popularity-wise.

Definitely no cowboys sitting around the campfire scrapping out the remains of his yogurt cup

A Balkan chuckwagon cook might serve Western cowhands yogurt. And they would eat it -- or else. Cf Moose Turd Pie.

 

[Pocketshaver]

Exactly. Many states you had to apply to the gov for a divorce. Not very common at all. In this series it was written up like a modern divorce. Two lawyers, a judge, property split and a divorce agreement. It was completely jarring.



Women were often driven into prostitution by the death of a spouse and the limited options available for working after in small towns.



No it doesn't match. That's what I was trying to accomplish. But I feel I was going too far. Do you have any examples of how things were spelled and pronounced?

When you add up all the different cultures previously mentioned, the local language could have ranged all over the map. Our idea of that today is driven by the media we watched, in my case starting back in the late 50's and 60's. Protestant white male. White meant good and black meant bad.

Everything I know about the old west is a Hollywood cliché. But without research everything everybody else knows is also a cliché.

I think as along as the basics are there, horse, gun, femme fatale, whiskey, beer and a light touch on the language it should come out alright.

Definitely no cowboys sitting around the campfire scrapping out the remains of his yogurt cup

research old books on history. books written by non political historians before 1950.
And look at actual papers from back then. Youll notice that most spelled phonetically even when they didn't know how to spell the word itself.

Just as happened at ellis island. My last name has a J in it in the old country,, not on ellis island though.

 

[gordo12]

Thanks for all the help. Just submitted my first western in LW.

The Gunfighter

Yeehaw, Guns, Gals, Whiskey and a Five-Legged Fly