Why Would We Legalize this Poison?

[DawnODay]

Governor Tony Evers is moving to legalize marijuana in Wisconsin. I wonder if he knows about this?

In the largest study to date, researchers from Canada and Oxford University found robust evidence that trying the drug before the age of 18 meant young people were more likely to develop depression and experience suicidal thoughts....

“The proportion of people with depression where that would not occur if the population did not use cannabis is around 7 per cent,” Professor Andrea Cipriani, one of the authors from the University of Oxford, said.

“This equates to around 400,000 cases of depression in the US, 25,000 in Canada or around 60,000 cases of depression in the UK which would be avoided if adolescents no longer used it.”​

A. Matthews-King, Up to 60,000 cases of depression in UK could be avoided if teenagers stay off cannabis, study says, The Indedpendent (Feb. 13, 2019).

 

[dan_c00000]

I'm a racist!

Countries like The Netherlands have a fairly liberal policy when it comes to drugs like pot and they have significant lower crime rates and happier citizens than the U.S. where pot is still a taboo.

Also, Portugal decriminalized not only pot but drugs like heroin. What happened? Nothing catastrophic.

Though often narrowly assessed in reference to its decriminalization law, Portugal's experience over the last decade and a half speaks as much to its free public health system, extensive treatment programs, and the hard to quantify trickle down effects of the legislation. In a society where drugs are less stigmatized, problem users are more likely to seek out care.

The opioid crisis soon stabilised, and the ensuing years saw dramatic drops in problematic drug use, HIV and hepatitis infection rates, overdose deaths, drug-related crime and incarceration rates. HIV infection plummeted from an all-time high in 2000 of 104.2 new cases per million to 4.2 cases per million in 2015. The data behind these changes has been studied and cited as evidence by harm-reduction movements around the globe.

Racist dawn claims to want to help people with addiction but "she" doesn't even contemplate something beyond turning to jailing people. Why? Well it's because racist dawn wants to see a bunch of poor minorities in jail. Good job outing yourself racist dawn.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Because it's less poisonous than Cola or booze and this is the USA, where shit like naturally occurring resources should NOT be prohibited or coveted.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Of course Dan can't behave like an adult.

 

[TJX]

Because it's less poisonous than Cola or booze and this is the USA, where shit like naturally occurring resources should be prohibited or coveted.

Don't forget tobacco, artificial sweeteners, food preservatives, fast food and processed meats to name just a few. On the other side is all those jobs that will be lost. Prison guards, police officers, lawyers, probation officers, judges. Again just to name a few. Something like 40%-60% of Americas prison population is made up of people who just wanted to mellow out after a days work.

 

[Ramone45]

The thing is, it's in widespread use already. I honestly don't think legalization is going to lead to a sustained increase in consumption. I will consume when it becomes legal. I prefer edibles. But my consumption of alcohol will decrease proportionally. Edibles are better for me that alcohol.

 

[dan_c00000]

Of course Dan can't behave like an adult.

Triggered.

Something like 40%-60% of Americas prison population is made up of people who just wanted to mellow out after a days work.

Let's not forget that people who are most often arrested come from poorer neighborhoods and racist dawn's solution would do little to help anyone. A recognition of something like poverty alleviation and universal health care would go a long way to treating real drug problems. Certainly better than jail would.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Triggered.

More childish behavior confirms my earlier assessment.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Don't forget tobacco, artificial sweeteners, food preservatives, fast food and processed meats to name just a few.

Yea that list is huge, no doubt.

On the other side is all those jobs that will be lost. Prison guards, police officers, lawyers, probation officers, judges. Again just to name a few. Something like 40%-60% of Americas prison population is made up of people who just wanted to mellow out after a days work.

Nah...it just means the cops/justice system will start having to go after real criminals and quit letting the violent ones loose early.

 

[DawnODay]

The thing is, it's in widespread use already....

Not true:

The vast majority of Americans do not use marijuana. While marijuana is the most commonly abused illicit drug in the United States, that does not mean everyone uses it. In 2011, more than 18 million Americans aged 12 and older reported using the drug within the past month. However, this is only 7.0 percent of the entire U.S. population 12 and older.​

Office of National Drug Control Policy, Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Marijuana, Archives of the White House of President Barack Obama (accessed Feb. 21, 2019) (emphasis added).

....

Something like 40%-60% of Americas prison population is made up of people who just wanted to mellow out after a days work.

Wrong.

Simply stated, there are very few people in state or Federal prison for marijuana-related crimes. It is useful to look at all drug offenses for context. Among sentenced prisoners under state jurisdiction in 2008, 18% were sentenced for drug offenses. We know from the most recent survey of inmates in state prison that only six percent (6%) of prisoners were for drug possession offenders, and just over four percent (4.4%) were drug offenders with no prior sentences.

In total, one tenth of one percent (0.1 percent) of state prisoners were marijuana possession offenders with no prior sentences.​

Office of National Drug Control Policy, Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Marijuana, Archives of the White House of President Barack Obama (accessed Feb. 21, 2019) (emphasis added).

 

[BotanyBoy]

So dawn....why would we not legalize it?

What argument have you for prohibition?

 

[dan_c00000]

I didn't look at the graph.

Of course racist dawn cherry picked "her" data. If you look at the number "Drug Offenders held for crimes involving marijuana" you'll see the number is 2.7%. Big jump there racist dawn.

This data is also fairly old (2004) and if you look at the larger data you'll see that it is missing the number of people held in local jails. In other words we're jailing people for a "crime" that is about as harmful as drinking a glass of wine.

 

[Bdm20]

Governor Tony Evers is moving to legalize marijuana in Wisconsin. I wonder if he knows about this?

In the largest study to date, researchers from Canada and Oxford University found robust evidence that trying the drug before the age of 18 meant young people were more likely to develop depression and experience suicidal thoughts....

“The proportion of people with depression where that would not occur if the population did not use cannabis is around 7 per cent,” Professor Andrea Cipriani, one of the authors from the University of Oxford, said.

“This equates to around 400,000 cases of depression in the US, 25,000 in Canada or around 60,000 cases of depression in the UK which would be avoided if adolescents no longer used it.”​

A. Matthews-King, Up to 60,000 cases of depression in UK could be avoided if teenagers stay off cannabis, study says, The Indedpendent (Feb. 13, 2019).

People who think for themselves will always question the methodology of studies. Does the pot make young people more prone to depression, or is it possible that depressed young people are more likely to smoke pot?

 

[Bray123]

Stoners are gonna stone, but to say that cannabis is safer than fast food is not a convincing argument.

Clinical depression is linked to cannabis use, as is paranoia. So which created which? Do cannabis users worry unduly that the government is going to take their weed (like rednecks worry about their guns) because of the cannabis?

I know a doctor working in a psyche ward; he describes his unit as a rehab ward. Almost every patient is a heavy user of drugs, mostly cannabis.

Cannabis used to be legal once. So was cocaine, LSD and heroin. Every drug you can name was at one time freely available. But every one of those drugs caused such problems that the government banned them. Not out of boredom, spite or ignorance.

Cannabis worse than alcohol? Possibly, possibly not. Who cares. It's like arguing about whether car crashes cause more deaths than guns. But both products are easily produced and so cannot effectively be eliminated. We are with cannabis roughly where we were with alcohol during Prohibition, so we may as well throw in the towel and make some tax dollars while taking the profit away from criminals.

Until drug consumers appreciate that they are directly supporting organisations like ISIS and FARC, this will continue.

 

[LincolnDuncan]

Governor Tony Evers is moving to legalize marijuana in Wisconsin. I wonder if he knows about this?

In the largest study to date, researchers from Canada and Oxford University found robust evidence that trying the drug before the age of 18 meant young people were more likely to develop depression and experience suicidal thoughts....

“The proportion of people with depression where that would not occur if the population did not use cannabis is around 7 per cent,” Professor Andrea Cipriani, one of the authors from the University of Oxford, said.

“This equates to around 400,000 cases of depression in the US, 25,000 in Canada or around 60,000 cases of depression in the UK which would be avoided if adolescents no longer used it.”​

A. Matthews-King, Up to 60,000 cases of depression in UK could be avoided if teenagers stay off cannabis, study says, The Indedpendent (Feb. 13, 2019).

Why would we not make alcohol illegal?

 

[JackLuis]

Stoners are gonna stone, but to say that cannabis is safer than fast food is not a convincing argument.
-

Until drug consumers appreciate that they are directly supporting organisations like ISIS and FARC, this will continue.

If stoners would grow their own, we could cut out the drug dealers altogether.

 

[BotanyBoy]

If stoners would grow their own, we could cut out the drug dealers altogether.

Not everyone can or has the time to garden.

This is why we have money, so we can exchange production....so the computer nerds can enjoy getting baked and the stoners who can grow can go buy the latest game the computer nerds made.

Capitalism....it's wonderful!!

Why do you hate the freedom of association and free exchange of goods and services so much comrade?

 

[DawnODay]

So dawn....why would we not legalize it?

What argument have you for prohibition?

Well, for starters:

.... “400,000 cases of depression in the US, 25,000 in Canada or around 60,000 cases of depression in the UK which would be avoided if adolescents no longer used it.”[/INDENT]

A. Matthews-King, Up to 60,000 cases of depression in UK could be avoided if teenagers stay off cannabis, study says, The Indedpendent (Feb. 13, 2019).

As for criticism of the study:

People who think for themselves will always question the methodology of studies. Does the pot make young people more prone to depression, or is it possible that depressed young people are more likely to smoke pot?

Given that this is from Oxford, I have little doubt they accounted for this in their controls.

You do understand how that's done, right?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Well, for starters:

A potential link to depression in 0.16% of the population?

You think that's justification for sending the state in to destroy peoples lives day in and day out?

And if that is all you need to justify government violence against it's own people, how is it you're totally ok with the MILLIONS of quantifiably more dangerous products available to everyone freely on shelves of every retailer in the country?

Have you any idea what processed sugar is doing to the US population right now?

Have you read the side effects of your OTC medications lately?

Odds are 99.9% of everything in your medicine cabinet is more dangerous than cannabis and unless you're very particular about your food the majority of your pantry/fridge are probably more toxic to your health.

Frosted flakes, salami and cola are no shit more dangerous to your health than ganja.

 

[DawnODay]

Governor Tony Evers is moving to legalize marijuana in Wisconsin.

....
Something like 40%-60% of Americas prison population is made up of people who just wanted to mellow out after a days work.

Evers claimed in a news release and a tweet that drug-related crimes account for as 75 to 85 percent of the Wisconsin inmate population.

That statistic was pulled from an incorrect article published six years ago....

Indeed the numbers are so far off, and the sourcing — a six-year-old article based on a radio interview that focused on a different topic — is so remote, it’s ridiculous.​

E. Litke, Evers claims drug crimes account for 75 percent or more of state prison population. Not even close, Politifact (Feb. 22, 2019).

This politifact article establishes that: "Marijuana crimes accounted for 6.4 percent of [Wisconsin] prison admissions." That, of course, would include all marijuana crimes, including high level dealing. Indeed, if you look into it, you will find that pretty much everyone in prison for "marijuana crimes" are there for dealing. Simple usage, if criminally charged at all (it's usually a civil forfeiture), is dealt with in other ways. Nationally, "one tenth of one percent (0.1 percent) of state prisoners were marijuana possession offenders with no prior sentences." Office of National Drug Control Policy, Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Marijuana, Archives of the White House of President Barack Obama (accessed Feb. 21, 2019).

A potential link to depression in 0.16% of the population...?

That may not sound like much until you remember the raw number is 400,000, which is the population of a good sized city, like Minneapolis or New Orleans. Plus, that's based on current usage, which will rise if it is legalized.

....

Odds are 99.9% of everything in your medicine cabinet is more dangerous than cannabis and unless you're very particular about your food the majority of your pantry/fridge are probably more toxic to your health.

Frosted flakes, salami and cola are no shit more dangerous to your health than ganja.

The premise that pot is less dangerous than alcohol, tobacco, or other legal substances has been consistently refuted. Check out the book: Tell Your Children: The Truth About Marijuana, Mental Illness, and Violence; and listen to the podcast embedded in this article.

 

[BotanyBoy]

This politifact article establishes that: "Marijuana crimes accounted for 6.4 percent of [Wisconsin] prison admissions." That, of course, would include all marijuana crimes, including high level dealing. Indeed, if you look into it, you will find that pretty much everyone in prison for "marijuana crimes" are there for dealing.

Capitalism BAD!!!

Adults free to make their own choices BAD!!!!

Totalitarian government control GOOD!

That may not sound like much until you remember the raw number is 400,000, which is the population of a good sized city, like Minneapolis or New Orleans. Plus, that's based on current usage, which will rise if it is legalized.

400k still sounds microscopic next to 330M.

Unlikely....just like alcoholism didn't rise nor did the fabric of society come undone when we ended prohibition of alcohol.

The premise that pot is less dangerous than alcohol, tobacco, or other legal substances has been consistently refuted.

Only by people with a huge financial interest in keeping it illegal and those who are still buying into "reefer madness".

All the significantly less biased sources say otherwise.

The rest of us look at the CDC data and realize vending machine accidents kill more people every year than cannabis....that's right vending machines are more deadly than pot. Fact.

Why aren't you more upset and wanting to ban vending machines and SWAT team their owners, lock them up for a 20 year mandatory???


And the abnormal violence surrounding it?

100% because prohibition.

You don't see abnormal or significantly elevated violence surrounding any legal flower sales/exchanges or legalized cannabis.

In fact the #1 source of violence surrounding pot? Almost all of it comes from the US GOVERNMENT!!!!

Raiding people, taking all their shit and destroying their family over pot.....like you want them to keep doing, for no good reason other than you hate pot because you were told to.

 

[DawnODay]

Capitalism BAD!!!

Adults free to make their own choices BAD!!!!

Totalitarian government control GOOD!

Hey! What gives?

According to dan_c00000, you're my "alt." You should know "we" are Conservative!



Seriously, while I agree with your smaller government philosophy, unless you're a complete Libertarian who would also legalize things like heroin, crack, and meth, then you recognize we have to draw the line somewhere. I see no compelling reason not to keep pot on the illegal side of that line.

I recognize the validity of the argument that alcohol is nearly as bad as pot but, for historical reasons, prohibition of alcohol won't work. We've tried it, so have other societies, and not been able to break the habit. Too large of a percentage of the population uses alcohol for too many different reasons.

That's not the case with pot. Less than 10% of the population uses pot regularly (Office of National Drug Control Policy, Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about Marijuana, Archives of the White House of President Barack Obama (accessed Feb. 21, 2019)). There is no legitimate reason to add another mind-altering drug to the legal side of the list to placate such a currently small segment of the population.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Hey! What gives?

According to dan_c00000, you're my "alt." You should know "we" are Conservative!

LOL....I'm a liberal, not a conservative.

Actual liberal....not one of these communist shits running around calling themselves liberal while advocating max government control over all the things.

Seriously, while I agree with your smaller government philosophy, unless you're a complete Libertarian who would also legalize things like heroin, crack, and meth, then you recognize we have to draw the line somewhere.

Socially I'm very much a libertarian. If you're not violating other peoples rights consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want with themselves and other consenting adults. None of the governments fuckin' bidnizz.

I see no compelling reason not to keep pot on the illegal side of that line.

You have yet to present a compelling reason why it should even be prohibited in the first place.

So why should we spend endless amounts of money to ruin peoples lives (getting busted is the worst possible thing that comes from pot) instead of just letting people pursue their happiness and make some money in the process?

Washington, Franklin and Jefferson....pothead founding fathers, would not approve of prohibition nor excessive taxes.

I recognize the validity of the argument that alcohol is nearly as bad as pot but,

Nearly?

88,000 men and women in 2017 died of alcohol poisoning....that's not even including the secondary deaths from disease, obesity and DUI.

That's just one year.

In all of medical history....not a single verified case of a cannabis OD.

You can say alcohol is almost as bad as pot all you want but the facts and medical science simply doesn't support that.

Opium, meth, tobacco and alcohol are by far some of the most physiologically and mentally destructive substances known to man that we consume for fun.

But you want to know what the absolute worst offender of them all is?

Processed sugars....high fructose corn syrup....junk drinks specifically.

for historical reasons, prohibition of alcohol won't work. We've tried it, so have other societies, and not been able to break the habit. Too large of a percentage of the population uses alcohol for too many different reasons.

Do you think the war against pot has been successful?

Seriously?

It's every bit the fail alcohol prohibition was + an extra 50 years of it.

There is no legitimate reason to add another mind-altering drug to the legal side of the list to placate such a currently small segment of the population.

There was never a reason to prohibit it in the first place.

You don't want to use it? Fine...no problem.

But this is the USA, you shouldn't get to tell 330,000,000 others they don't get a choice because you have a problem with it, no different than booze, ciggz or Pepsi.

 

[DawnODay]

LOL....I'm a liberal, not a conservative.

Actual liberal....not one of these communist shits running around calling themselves liberal while advocating max government control over all the things.

You're a "liberal" in the Nineteenth Century sense, which aligns pretty much with "conservative," with a splash of "libertarian," in the Twenty-First century.

Which means you and I will probably agree at least 90% of the time.

On this issue, however, we'll simply have to respectfully disagree.

I see your point. It's valid, but not completely compelling. I'm just a bit less libertarian than you and do not want to see another drug given increased availability.

You sidestepped one question: What is your opinion on legalizing heroin, cocaine, and meth?

 

[BotanyBoy]

You sidestepped one question: What is your opinion on legalizing heroin, cocaine, and meth?

You missed it.

Socially I'm very much a libertarian. If you're not violating other peoples rights consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want with themselves and other consenting adults. None of the governments fuckin' bidnizz.

That includes drugs, orgies, butt sex, poly marriages, whoring, consenting combat, medically assisted suicide as an end of life option etc.

It's my freedom and liberty loving opinion that it's just NOT the place of the US government to manage peoples sex lives, healthcare and consumption habits.

If someone wants to burn a joint at the end of the day to unwind instead of drinking booze they should have that choice.

If someone wants to die with dignity among loved ones, comfortably on a controlled opiate OD instead of a protracted 5 month long agonizing death....they should have that choice.

If you want to marry 5 other people and live in a more traditional, religious or just communal manner with whatever culture/religion you want? You should have the choice to live that lifestyle with other people who want the same.....


Again, in my opinion, the pursuit of happiness is key to "what it is to be American" or "the American Dream" and in order for that to be possible you must allow others their own pursuits even if you find them unpalatable for yourself.