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How To Get To Heaven When You Die

DO YOU ACCEPT JESUS GIFT OF SALVATION BELIEVING HE DIED N ROSE AGAIN FOR YOUR SINS?

  • YES

    Votes: 48 16.4%

  • NO

    Votes: 148 50.5%

  • I ALREADY ACCEPTED JESUS GIFT OF SALVATION BEFORE

    Votes: 62 21.2%

  • OTHER

    Votes: 35 11.9%
  • Total voters
    293
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HelpImLost said:
I don't appreciate that nasty accusation at all. Very uncalled for. There is nothing at all that unusual about my posts.
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They make clear you accept, without revulsion, the doctrine of Hell. That is corruption. Your soul stinks of God-fathered brimstone and sewage.
 
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Kirkrapine said:
They make clear you accept, without revulsion, the doctrine of Hell. That is corruption. Your soul stinks of God-fathered brimstone and sewage.
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Yes... because hell exists. So be a good person and love, and serve our Lord, and you and everyone else would be spared from eternal damnation. Repent of your sins.

Not that difficult. :)
 
HelpImLost said:
Yes... because hell exists. So be a good person and love, and serve our Lord, and you and everyone else would be spared from eternal damnation. Repent of your sins.

Not that difficult. :)
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And go to Heaven to spend eternity with the false and evil God who made Hell?! No thanks! He is not worthy of my company or yours!
 
HelpImLost said:
Yes... because hell exists. So be a good person and love, and serve our Lord, and you and everyone else would be spared from eternal damnation. Repent of your sins.

Not that difficult. :)
Click to expand...

I appreciate you caring about this issue, but I must say that that's not the way of salvation. Relying on being a good person to get you to heaven will get you to hell because you are already a sinner in God's eyes. You MUST place your FAITH in Jesus Christ for salvation believing in your heart that He died and rose again for your sins. Remember that we are under Paul's gospel of grace, not the Gospel of the Kingdom as laid out by the Apostles. They were preaching to Jews under the law. We are under Grace my friend.
 
HelpImLost said:
Yes... because hell exists. So be a good person and love, and serve our Lord, and you and everyone else would be spared from eternal damnation. Repent of your sins.

Not that difficult. :)
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That won't work for me. I already explained why in the thread. My scarlet letter ought to be a B, but Laverne and Sherlie ruined scarlet letters for everyone. Now people think it's monogrammed initials. Then they touch me and taint themselves.
 
HelpImLost said:
Yes... because hell exists. So be a good person and love, and serve our Lord, and you and everyone else would be spared from eternal damnation. Repent of your sins.

Not that difficult. :)
Click to expand...

God should be like a public servant. Rather than us fearing God, God should fear us. :)
 
xfrodobagginsx said:
I appreciate you caring about this issue, but I must say that that's not the way of salvation. Relying on being a good person to get you to heaven will get you to hell because you are already a sinner in God's eyes. You MUST place your FAITH in Jesus Christ for salvation believing in your heart that He died and rose again for your sins. Remember that we are under Paul's gospel of grace, not the Gospel of the Kingdom as laid out by the Apostles. They were preaching to Jews under the law. We are under Grace my friend.
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That's . . . rather a fine point of doctrine. Not a distinction I've ever seen drawn before.
 
CandiCame said:
That won't work for me. I already explained why in the thread. My scarlet letter ought to be a B, but Laverne and Sherlie ruined scarlet letters for everyone. Now people think it's monogrammed initials. Then they touch me and taint themselves.
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B for Bottom?
 
Kirkrapine said:
B for Bottom?
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HA!

I could go B for bastard and S for sodomite, but sodomite's not an irredeemable sin in the bible. You can repent from that.

I just want to be able to walk around with socially sanction bullshit. It works on 2 levels.
 
xfrodobagginsx said:
I appreciate you caring about this issue, but I must say that that's not the way of salvation. Relying on being a good person to get you to heaven will get you to hell because you are already a sinner in God's eyes. You MUST place your FAITH in Jesus Christ for salvation believing in your heart that He died and rose again for your sins. Remember that we are under Paul's gospel of grace, not the Gospel of the Kingdom as laid out by the Apostles. They were preaching to Jews under the law. We are under Grace my friend.
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So you are saying that Jesus who only said he had come to teach the Talmud (Jewish Law) should be ignored in favour of this 'gospel of grace' invented by Paul.

It would be amusing to see you and HIL debate this point.
 
colddiesel said:
So you are saying that Jesus who only said he had come to teach the Talmud (Jewish Law) should be ignored in favour of this 'gospel of grace' invented by Paul.

It would be amusing to see you and HIL debate this point.
Click to expand...

I will add to your amusement by putting my two cents in. It wsn't invented by Paul it was brought to us by Jesus.:rose:
 
Question, folks: According to the bible, is Lucifer a helpless prisoner in hell or in charge of it and able to influence humans?
 
Led_Astray said:
Question, folks: According to the bible, is Lucifer a helpless prisoner in hell or in charge of it and able to influence humans?
Click to expand...

This is a whole big thing that is actually widely debated because the VAST majority of the demonic texts were thrown out during the 15th century canonization and are no longer considered biblical "canon". If we were treating this as a fandom, like I do, and not a religion, it would make a lot more sense.

You know how in a canonical storytelling device, like say Star Wars, there's first tier canon (The movies), second tier canon, and then fanon? First tier here would be the bible, second tier would be religious texts that were once considered part of the canon, and then fanon would be stuff like the Inferno that has become widely considered third tier canon among the fanbase (Christians, and scholars who like it).

So I'm gonna be pulling from the first two sources and MAYBE fanon a little bit but if I get to fanon I'll tell you.

Ok. This is a big of a clusterfuck.

So, before god created earth, he created a race of slaves called angels that followed a 7-tiered system called "chiors". The chiors are broken down into 3 different "spheres". Each chior is a rank, and each sphere is the job. But all angels were created as servants to obey god- they do not have free will BY DESIGN. This is important.

Lucipher was a Seraphim, the highest chior of angels, inhabiting the first sphere. These were the personal servants of god, the closest to him, and god considered them damn near perfect. They were supposed to be beautiful and intelligent, and, like all angels, perfectly submissive in every way.

When god decided to create Earth, Lucipher was... the best way to describe it is that he was his personal assistant. Also there's a pun here that's missed- Seraphim means "the burning ones" or "the light ones" (light as in bright, you know as a synonym for burning), and Lucipher means "light bringer" or "match struck on a harsh surface"- and all the Seraphim have names that are fire puns, and are described as being beings of light.

THIS IS A GOOD, WELL WRITTEN STORY AND IT IS FULL OF SHIT LIKE THAT. LUCI'S NAME IS A DAD JOKE.

Anyway, so God is making Earth, and Luci is getting him coffee or whatever, and god originally makes two humans, Adam and Lilith (this is second tier, Lil's whole story was cut during the 15th century canonization). God wants Lil to be subservient to Adam, like Luci is subservient to him, and says that he created her to fill that role and be happy with it. Then him and Luci leave because at this point the authors haven't solidified god's powers and he's not omnipresent yet (notice how in Genesis he has to BE on Earth to hold power there- it wasn't cut or retconned, it's one of the things that people call out as a biblical inconsistency).

While they're gone, Adam suggests that they have sex, because, no joke, before that he had tried to fuck pretty much every other animal, and found none to his liking. He tells her that, too. Right to her face. And her response is, predictably, that that's kind of fucked up, but she's literally like 5 minutes old and it's more of a

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FoolishRemorsefulAmericanblackvulture-mobile.jpg

Oh, no, I forgot like a bunch of shit happened before that where Adam kept telling Lil to do stuff, but it's one of those times where it gets kind of repetitive, so it literally is just he's walking around the garden telling her how it works and shit. It's forgettable and that's why I forgot it.

So, anyway, he suggests they have sex, and Lil agrees, but she's kind of pissy at this point with him, because he walked around the garden being boring, and then told her about all the animals he had fucked, and he's getting on her goddamn nerves- which should not be a thing he should be able to do, because she should be happy to serve him, the way that angels are happy to serve god. But he is.

So he wants to do missionary position, and she wants to do reverse cowgirl, and she eventually gets to the point where all this shit bubbles to the surface, she absolutely loses her shit, says that she can't obey someone that fucking stupid- and straight up turns into a screech owl and leaves because APPARENTLY SHE CAN DO THAT!? IT'S LITERALLY NEVER EXPLAINED!? Like she is 100% human. There is no canonical reason for her to have this ability.

So then Luci comes back, because he was doing that a lot, originally, because he was the second in command on this project, and he's walking around the garden, idk, taking inventory or someshit, writing a report for god, I guess, it's not super clear, it basically says that god sent him to do periodic check-ins sometimes when he didn't feel like going down there himself because he's not omnipotent yet. And he comes across Lil who is like, coming down from the fight and raging out and he's like, "Uhhh... are you ok?"

And she's like, "No, I hate Adam, I hate this place, this is bullshit, this is awful and also I want a baby."

Which I think is weird. Like... I'm pretty judgy about these characters, and I think that's a weird thing for a person who is 0 days old to want, but also that's what god told her her purpose was so I kinda get it- but also also it's just weird.

This all does tie into the question you asked, I swear, it just really is this long of a story.

So Luci tells her that to get a baby she needs to fuck Adam, and she refuses to do that, because he's a controlling dumbass, and Luci tells her that she's designed to be a servant and should be happy about it, like he is- and then she hits him with the, "Are you really happy, though?"

And... he realizes that... no. No, he's not happy at all.
Because he was lied to.
He was told that he would never have to feel internal conflict, that he had no free will, that his purpose was to serve god, to love him unconditionally, and that as long as he did that, he would be happy.

But he's never been happy.

He never asked to be a servant. He never wanted it, he never got to choose, and if he HAD gotten to choose, he wouldn't spend his life groveling at the feet of someone who has never actually shown him that he cared, EVER.

Then he tells Lil that there's this tree in the garden that will determine whether humans get to live or die, that this whole thing is an experiment to see if free will is worth having. One of the trees is the tree of life, and the other is the tree of knowledge. If you eat from the tree of life, you'll gain immortality, but if you eat from the tree of knowledge, you give up immortality- but you get freedom. You won't be confined to the garden, you won't be a pet. You can travel the entire planet that they've made, you can do whatever you want- but you'll eventually die. You can be an immortal slave, or you can be free, but only for a human lifespan.

Lil chooses freedom.

Then Luci shapeshifts a dick and they fuck. Because... come on, you knew it was gonna happen.

So god appears and is like, "Uhhh... Lucipher, WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?"

And Luci is like, "It is EXACTLY what it looks like, and also, FUCK YOU. WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?"

And then he takes a BUNCH of the knowledge fruit that gives you free will, eats one, and poofs off to Heaven, and god is, I guess, sitting there like, "Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkk".

So he smites Lil and turns her into some kind of monster, it's not really explained, but it might be the owl that she turned into earlier, or like a greek siren that's half bird, or it could be a naga, or a snake. There are a bunch of conflicting accounts, so in my head she's a shapeshifter, because later on in her legends her kids are shapeshifters, so that makes the most sense to me, but it's never 100% explained what she is.

Now, because god fucked up so bad with Lil- and he literally admits he fucked up, which is rare for him- he goes back to Adam and is like, "why didn't you control your woman?"

And Adam's like, "I COULDN'T. I tried. She wouldn't do what I told her."

And so god is all, "Well, I'll make a woman who will."

And then he makes Eve from the rib instead of dirt, under the impression that that will somehow make her more submissive? And then he leaves to go back to Heaven to start damage control-

And walks into a CLUSTERFUCK. Once Luci told angels that free will was a thing you could do, about a third of them were like, "wait there's another option?" Then they ate the fruit, gained sentience, and joined him, instantly as pissed about the forced servitude as they had a right to be. Angels, by the way, are fucking terrifying. People think of them as hot guys with wings, but they're not. Some of the chiors are shape-shifters, so unknowable eldrich abominations, some of them are 4-headed, multiwheeled monstrosities- this is getting long, but my point is that when people think of this war, they think of humans with wings and that is NOT what it was. There's a reason that every time an angel appears before a human in their true form, the first words out of their mouth is, "Be not afraid". Because if you saw a real angel, you'd shit yourself and go instantly into fight or flight.

Biblical seraphim, what Luci is, actually look almost identical to Sepheroth's final form- which, you can guess Sepheroth was based on the seraphim. So this war was that boss battle multiplied by the shitton of soldier Luci had. This would be fucking epic. This would be an amazing movie.

So this rebellion is happening-

Meanwhile, on Earth, Lil, who has been cursed, gives birth. To Lucipher's child. This kid has no canonical name, but fandom has dubbed him "Damien", I think because of the movie, the Omen. This name is completely fanon, but it's what most people call him.

So Lil is pissed. She's pissed that she's been cursed. She's pissed that she's watching Eve have to put up with bullshit. She's pissed that Luci got her pregnant then absconded for the entire length of the pregnancy. So she goes back to the garden- because, remember, she can go anywhere. There's nobody guarding that place yet, and she talks to Eve.

She tells Eve about the tree of knowledge and the tree of life, and tells her that the tree of knowledge is the right choice. She also shit-talks Adam a little bit. This, btw, is why in all the paintings prior to the widespread acceptance of the 15th century canonization, the serpent is a lady. It was never Luci, it was Lil. Also why there are two accounts of god creating human women, a "male and female he created them" and then later when he makes Eve out of a rib.

https://www.thoughtco.com/thmb/mWQlS0DPb7FTyvKVSHf_cumjNro=/416x599/filters:fill(auto,1)/416px-France_Paris_Notre-Dame-Adam_and_Eve-56a55f453df78cf77287fc60.jpg
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/wp-content/uploads/lilith-4.jpg
https://www.thoughtco.com/thmb/pfn0SMhRdoHn9cllXytOL2pE4OA=/768x0/filters:no_upscale():max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/Raffael_052-56a55f6b3df78cf77287fcff.jpg

But Eve actually does love Adam, and actually is subservient to him, so she tells Lil, "I'll do it if Adam will do it". So she goes to get Adam, and together, they make the decision to take Lil's advice. And they eat from the tree of knowledge.

Meanwhile, in Heaven, Luci is losing. He's losing, and he KNOWS he's losing, and he actually gives a pretty bitching speech in the final epic showdown against god, where he tells him that he does love him. That he's always loved him. That that is not what this is about. He wants them to be in love. He's always wanted that, still craves that- but he wants it to be real. He wants god to love him back, as an equal. He wants acknowledgement for everything he's done. He wants god to admit that he did half the work on the earth project, that he helped oversee Heaven, that he's a good person BECAUSE he's a good person, not because he's filling a role. He's in love, but he wants it to be real. He doesn't want to be a pet, he wants to be a lover.

God tells him that they will NEVER be equal. That god created him, and therefore controls him, and if he would just accept that, he, being god, could undo everything, all the destruction he's caused, the whole war, and everything could go right back to how it was before. He can take the burden of free will from him, and he can be truly happy again, back in his place where belongs, doing what he was meant to do.

And Luci realizes that god was never in love with him, with any of them, because he doesn't actually know what real love, between two equals is. He decides that he would rather not exist than be a slave trapped in a loveless, abusive relationship. He knows he can't win, but he would rather die on his feet than live on his knees.

So God banishes him, and everyone that sided with him, from Heaven. He doesn't destroy them, he just banishes them. The text treats this as mercy. I think it's one more dick move in what will become a long list of dick moves.

At this point, there is no hell. Hell is a threat for the future.

So all the fallen angels are banished to earth, and Luci is, understandably, DEVASTATED. He had loved this guy- god, his entire life. His entire purpose had been to love him, to serve him, and the second he got mouthy he was thrown aside- interestingly enough replaced by Gabriel, who he sees as an inferior replacement and that also pisses him off, so he is completely losing his shit. So he kind of decides that he is going to make it his life's mission to tell all of God's precious little humans what an absolute piece of shit he is. That he may not get back into heaven, but he's gonna make goddamn sure that everyone knows what went down- that their "god" doesn't love them any more than he claimed to love him, because he doesn't know what love is.

This is why god can come to earth and chill with demons, like he does in the book of Job. Because demons are walking the earth. Remember that they're shape-shifters- they could be anyone. You could be best friends with a demon and never know it.

After he gets his shit together a little bit and stops crying and throwing his Klyo-ren bitch fit, he goes to find Lilith.

Meanwhile, while Luci is angsting, god goes back to the garden and finds out that ALL the humans have betrayed him. Already in a shitty mood and 3000% NOT NEEDING THIS RIGHT NOW, he throws all the humans out of the garden, and posts sentinels to guard it. Then he curses them- Adam with exhaustive physical labor and leadership responsibilities, and Eve with the concept of physical pain, particularly during childbirth. The latter is a much worse curse, and has historically pissed a lot of lady folk off. Also, menstruation was part of this, but it's one of those things that got cut, and also circumcision for Adam, but that was also cut. Idk why the circumcision curse was cut because it makes the punishment make a little bit more sense- the curse was that he would grow foreskin and then have to cut it off, so apparently humans didn't originally have that.

So after that, Luci finds Lil, and also finds out that he has a son-

And then shit gets weird and hard to follow, and this is part of the reason that this is a difficult question to answer.

The bible does not give us a clear indication of when hell was formed. There's no mention of it in the old testimate, but during the Noah story it's alluded that there is another dimension, separate from Heaven or earth, where demons have taken up residence, but it's not CALLED hell, and it's certainly not the same place that you go to be tortured.

And then that place gets brought up kind of a lot. This, not hell, is where Luci is supposed to rule and the demons, including his and Lil's kids (they had a LOT more after that first one, Lil doesn't have pain in childbirth so I assume she just shoots them out like a canon and he catches them). The demons absolutely are NOT trapped there- they can come to and from Earth at will. Luci and Lil, in particular, come and go a LOT. Lilith is actually still really super obsessed with kids, and will come and take your baby's soul and steal it and take it home with her and it's hers now if you don't baptize your kids. Like that's an actual legend about her and why you need to get your babies baptized as soon as you can.

Hell is a thing that's GOING to happen. It's a punishment that he threatened Luci with. After Armageddon, the demons will be cast into hell- to be tortured. They're not the ones doing the torturing. There's a LOT of debate as to whether or not humans will actually go to hell- the vast majority of the time it seems like they won't, but Jesus seems to think that they will- in another cut text he actually goes into hell to pull human people out of it, notably his best friend, Judas, who died via suicide and was in hell because of it.

Because the bible is a composite text- here's basically what happened, treating it as a book. There were a bunch of legends, and when they canonized them, they didn't mesh well. So hell, the place of eternal torment for demons, also became their home. And sometimes also a place where humans can go. Sometimes, people are judged instantly and sent to hell, sometimes they have to wait for judgement day, and their punishment is that their name is removed from the book of life and they just cease to be, sometimes everyone goes to heaven, sometimes shit humans stay on the new earth- none of it is very clear, because this thing has been rewritten a bunch of times, from a bunch of sources, and no one wants to bring in a new canonization team to retcon it, because it's all sacred now because there are people out there who actually believe it and they don't want people fucking with it to come up with an actual biblican canon.

So the real answer is that you have to go out there and look at all the secondary sources and then decide on your headcanon.

Based on what the actual sources say, this is me trying to headcanon it:

Luci probably created a new dimension for the fallen angels, using the experience he had gained during his time working on the earth project. It's probably very similar to earth, but more goth. We can even call it Hell. There, he rules his fallen angels, and they can travel back and forth to earth freely.

After he loses his second war, the one for earth, during Armageddon, he will then be sent to what Christians think of as Hell, we'll call it Hell 2.0, for his crimes against god, where he will suffer eternal torment at the hands of the man who created him, claimed to love him, and who he is, objectively, still in love with. He can't shake it. He talks about it a lot.

Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.

Now go listen to some Voltaire and Rolling Stones. Because that's some good fanfic right there.
 
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