Democracy is not two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for lunch

[Kirkrapine]

Yeah, and it gave us Spongebob, which I do not enjoy.

Which "sin" does Spngebob represent, apart from esthetic blindness and artistic incompetence?

 

[CandiCame]

This metaphor is being really mean to wolves.

 

[Kirkrapine]

This metaphor is being really mean to wolves.

They're not malicious, just hungry, and indifferent to what they have to do to eat -- but then what are capitalists?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Taxation != robbery.

MMmmmmm yea...it is, it's LEGAL robbery done by the state, but it's still robbery/extortion.

And that's why not taxing someone isn't giving them anything.

Actually, in a capitalist system, it almost always does.

How?

 

[Kirkrapine]

MMmmmmm yea...it is, it's LEGAL robbery . . .

Contradiction in terms.

How?

Because wolfish behavior makes money. The 19th-Century robber (using that label because it's traditional) barons weren't sheep, and neither are today's CEOs.

 

[BotanyBoy]

They're not malicious, just hungry, and indifferent to what they have to do to eat -- but then what are capitalists?

capitalist

noun

cap·i·tal·ist | \-ist \

Definition of capitalist (Entry 1 of 2)
1 : a person who has capital especially invested in business
industrial capitalists
broadly : a person of wealth : PLUTOCRAT
Charitable organizations often seek help from capitalists.
2 : a person who favors capitalism
capitalist adjective
\ˌka-pə-tə-ˈlis-tik, ˌkap-tə-, British also kə-ˌpi-tə-\
variants: or capitalistic

Definition of capitalist (Entry 2 of 2)
1 : owning capital
the capitalist class
2a : practicing or advocating capitalism
capitalist nations
b : marked by capitalism
capitalist period of history

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalist

 

[BotanyBoy]

Contradiction in terms.

But not action.

Robbery by a desperate villan, extortion by the mob or taxation by uncle sam....all the same behavior, the confiscation of wealth/property under threat of violence.

And they all wind up with the same result, either my bodily harm or loss of property.

There is not a damn bit of difference between the 3 when you're the one getting jacked.

Because wolfish behavior makes money.

So nothing specific...as I expected.

And no it's not.

There is nothing wolfish about exchanging goods and services to your advantage.

 

[Kirkrapine]

But not action.

Robbery by a desperate villan, extortion by the mob or taxation by uncle sam....all the same behavior, the confiscation of wealth/property under threat of violence.

And they all wind up with the same result, either my bodily harm or loss of property.

There is not a damn bit of difference between the 3 when you're the one getting jacked.

The main difference -- and it really does matter -- is what the money is spent on. The other difference is that you have no property rights in the first place except by the law's definition. They are neither God-given nor Nature-given.

There is nothing wolfish about exchanging goods and services to your advantage.

Of course there is -- if there weren't, organized labor and consumer-protection orgs never would have come into being.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Of course there is

How so?

-- if there weren't, organized labor and consumer-protection orgs never would have come into being.

The fact that organized labor and consumer-protection orgs were EVER allowed to exist in the first place is proof that it's not.

If capitalism were really the ruthless predator you try to make it out to be neither of those things would have ever happened.

 

[Kirkrapine]

The fact that organized labor and consumer-protection orgs were EVER allowed to exist in the first place is proof that it's not.

No, it is only proof that in a democracy, the power of wolves is limited, which is the point of this thread. Certainly those things would not exist if the capitalists called all the shots, and we can all be grateful to democracy that they don't.

 

[BotanyBoy]

The main difference -- and it really does matter -- is what the money is spent on.

Not to the person having their shit taken under threat of violence.

Authority is the main difference.

Robbery, extortion and taxation are all the exact same effective thing, their difference lies in who's doing it and with what level of authority.

The other difference is that you have no property rights in the first place

LOL according to who?

except by the law's definition. They are neither God-given nor Nature-given.

Totally different argument and you're wrong.

Come try and tax me without due process of law (rob me) and I'll demonstrate some natural rights for you that are as real as they get.

 

[BotanyBoy]

No, it is only proof that in a democracy, the power of wolves is limited,

Then explain Venezuela......USA and any number of other corrupt wolf run democracies??

Right.

Democracy only keeps wolves in check if they people make that a priority.

But that still doesn't make capitalist = wolf and you haven't even tried to explain how it does.

The plumber who is out on the grind unclogging peoples shit in exchange for money so he can house, cloth and feed his kids isn't a wolf.

Capitalism isn't inherently wolfy....

which is the point of this thread. Certainly those things would not exist if the capitalists called all the shots, and we can all be grateful to democracy that they don't.

Uhhhh yea they pretty much have.

Especially during the first 180 years.

 

[Kirkrapine]

Come try and tax me without due process of law (rob me) and I'll demonstrate some natural rights for you that are as real as they get.

Only because you can, not because God or Nature says you can.

 

[Kirkrapine]

Then explain Venezuela......USA and any number of other corrupt wolf run democracies??

To the extent those countries fall short of any civic ideal, it is because democracy there is imperfect, not because it exists.

Uhhhh yea they pretty much have.

Especially during the first 180 years.

Which is about how long it took for any effective organized labor to emerge here.

 

[CandiCame]

Which "sin" does Spngebob represent, apart from esthetic blindness and artistic incompetence?

Oh, this is a real thing, the creator talked about. He built the show around it. I can't remember who's who so I'll have to look it up. I just... did not enjoy that show. My little brother loved it so it was ALWAYS on and I hated that motherfucker Spongebob and his jackass friend Patric who was a son-of-a-bitch. Whoever does the voice for that fucking sea-sponge is going to be hired to sing SOMETHING for the people descending from limbo into Hell. I don't know what, but he's gonna have to sing it for all eternity, and then do that fucking laugh- just to let people know what they're in for.

Like... I don't like Elsa, but I get the appeal. I do not get the Spongebob appeal.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Only because you can, not because God or Nature says you can.

Exactly, because I can...which means clearly nature and/or god if you want, clearly approve.

Natural right = rights you secure for yourself regardless of law.

Property rights can very quickly go from legal rights to natural ones depending on the situation.

 

[BotanyBoy]

To the extent those countries fall short of any civic ideal, it is because democracy there is imperfect, not because it exists.

Democracy everywhere is imperfect because people are imperfect.

Which is about how long it took for any effective organized labor to emerge here.

Because capitalism isn't inherently wolfish.

Otherwise you'd be able to tell me exactly how Joe the Plumber, that Nazi CEO you love to hate is a wolf.

But you can't....because it's not.

 

[Kirkrapine]

Natural right = rights you secure for yourself regardless of law.

False. Natural rights are something that flows out of natural law, which does not exist -- except in a purely scientific and material, not in any ethical or political, sense.

 

[Tedfkats]

Actually, in a capitalist system, it almost always does.

Just curious.

You seem to have internet connection and a lot of time to post a little bit. In worldly terms, that makes you a pretty fortunate soul. I am going to guess you aren't starving, as if you were, you would be out trying to find food instead of a post here and there.

Your posts indicate that you are for wealth equalization through taxation. Correct me if I am wrong.

So where does the equalization stop? The real question is: What are you willing to give up? On a world scale YOU ARE THE 1%.

What are you doing specifically to lower YOUR standard of living to raise it for those beneath you on the economic totem pole?

 

[Kirkrapine]

Democracy everywhere is imperfect because people are imperfect.

For purposes of this thread, it makes no difference that people are imperfect. American and Venezuelan democracy is imperfect because it does not freely and fairly express and enact the will of the imperfect people. Chavez and Maduro did indeed win all their elections in a way international observers judged free and fair -- but you have to take that alongside the partisan-motivated state control of the media. As for the U.S., see Bush v. Gore, or for that matter Trump v. Clinton.

 

[BotanyBoy]

False. Natural rights are something that flows out of natural law, which does not exist -- except in a purely scientific and material, not in any ethical or political, sense.

Le sigh...yep and "natural law" is what I described.

It exists, go try and take a lions dinner from him before he gets a chance to have his fill and the King of the jungle will administer natural law to you directly.

His natural rights will quickly be established with extreme prejudice and there will be little question as to who's private property that zebra carcass is.

What are you doing specifically to lower YOUR standard of living to raise it for those beneath you on the economic totem pole?

Promoting socialism. He doesn't actually live by any of the shit he spews here.

For purposes of this thread, it makes no difference that people are imperfect.

Bullshit it makes all the difference because an electorate is made up of people.

American and Venezuelan democracy is imperfect because it does not freely and fairly express and enact the will of the imperfect people.

And who's fault is that?

Who makes up excuses for every shit their favored party takes on them and re-elects them asking for more???

The electorate.....in a democracy holding your elected officials accountable (not making excuses for their dog shit performance) is the responsibility of the electorate.

Our democracy is broken because we don't do that.

We make up excuses for our parties endlessly, we do not hold them responsible.....we're starting to though, Trump is the warning, people are sick and tired of the same ol' shit no matter who they vote for.

 

[IG_88]

Oh, this is a real thing, the creator talked about. He built the show around it. I can't remember who's who so I'll have to look it up. I just... did not enjoy that show. My little brother loved it so it was ALWAYS on and I hated that motherfucker Spongebob and his jackass friend Patric who was a son-of-a-bitch. Whoever does the voice for that fucking sea-sponge is going to be hired to sing SOMETHING for the people descending from limbo into Hell. I don't know what, but he's gonna have to sing it for all eternity, and then do that fucking laugh- just to let people know what they're in for.

Like... I don't like Elsa, but I get the appeal. I do not get the Spongebob appeal.

Fan theories are not fact.

 

[SpeareChucker]

Taxation != robbery.

In a Democracy it is.

I just read that 50% of our population gets more in welfare than it pays in taxes.
That's what comes from the mob learning that it can vote itself the largess of the Public Treasury.

 

[SpeareChucker]

False. Natural rights are something that flows out of natural law, which does not exist -- except in a purely scientific and material, not in any ethical or political, sense.

Natural rights flow from one question, and one question only: Do I own me?

 

[Kirkrapine]

In a Democracy it is.

I just read that 50% of our population gets more in welfare than it pays in taxes.
That's what comes from the mob learning that it can vote itself the largess of the Public Treasury.

No democracy in history has ever failed by that route.