animal rights and fetal rights

DMBFFF

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One argument—likely the biggest argument—for banning abortion is that fetuses (feti?) have rights, particularly a right to life.

In my view, many pre-born humans are no more sentient than many animals, and many might be less so.

I doubt a 9 month-old human fetus is more sentient than an ape.

I doubt an early human fetus is more sentient than, say, a toad or frog.

I doubt an early human embryo is more sentient than, say, a grasshopper.

It (too) has little limbs, an identifiable body, a heart (or hearts), a primitive brain (or brain-of-sorts), and primitive circulatory, nervous, and digestive systems. It too responds to light and (likely) recoils from pinpricks. Moreover it can eat its own food, fend for itself, and sexually reproduce.

I doubt an early human zygote is more sentient than, say, a hydra or jellyfish.

I doubt a fertilized human egg is more sentient than, say, an amoeba.

But while in, say, the US, pro-lifers/anti-abortionists/anti-choicers go on about 10s of millions of abortions of human pre-born since Roe versus Wade, and how they are used for things like stem cell research, likely billions of semi-sentient animals are slaughtered—often after being raised in terrible conditions, eviscerated, butchered, cooked, and eaten by an omnivourous species that can survive—perhaps survive well—entirely on a plant-based diet.

I find it odd—likely hypocritical—that states most interested in banning abortion are likely the least interested in animal welfare.





(similar likely applies in Canada, though I suppose it's 1/10th the number, given 1/10th our population. One could even argue that by Trump's opposing Canada’s < 300% tariff on milk—me too—he's supporting that extra abuse of semi-sentient beings, and raised (and confined and eventually slaughtered) in America—but I digress.)
 
. . .and vice versa.

My favorite observed bumper sticker cognitive dissonance was "Meat is MURDER" paired with MY body, My choice!"
 
Life does not begin at conception. Sperm and ova are very much alive before they fuse together.
 
. . .and vice versa.

My favorite observed bumper sticker cognitive dissonance was "Meat is MURDER" paired with MY body, My choice!"

There are the similarities, but there is the parasite argument.

"Get off my land" and "Get out of my womb."



Life does not begin at conception. Sperm and ova are very much alive before they fuse together.

but I doubt they're very sentient.
 
Life does not begin at conception. Sperm and ova are very much alive before they fuse together.

Does that mean that if somebody jacks off while reading a dirty story, that person is committing murder. Worse yet, the author of that story would be at least an accessory to murder. Maybe even an accomplice. Good grief, that would make me a serial killer. :eek:
 
Oh look.

Another man trying to grapple with abortion as a philosophical issue instead of a medical issue.

Christ.
 
They'd have found someone else. It's not like he was the first.
 
Oh look.

Another man trying to grapple with abortion as a philosophical issue instead of a medical issue.

Christ.

Another false claim that men has no voice in the debate.

When "Buzzy" Ginsburg dies and a woman is named to replace her, watch the attack on Catholicism. Elections have consequences. You have to learn to live with the consequences of your actions, but you cannot. You blame everyone else for your loss...
 
Another false claim that men has no voice in the debate.

When "Buzzy" Ginsburg dies and a woman is named to replace her, watch the attack on Catholicism. Elections have consequences. You have to learn to live with the consequences of your actions, but you cannot. You blame everyone else for your loss...

I have never said men have no voice in the debate. But then you have never had any problem mischaracterizing reality to suit your interpretations. The problem is that when men focus on the philosophical aspect of abortion they leave out the very pertinent and almost all consuming physical and medical aspects of abortion and pregnancy.

Men who account for these two very important aspects tend to have a more well-rounded, logical and fact-based perspective. those who insist on trying to tie abortion to their religious or moral beliefs flounder simply because there is no one consistent morality across humanity.

ETA... That can be said of both men and women actually.
 
I have never said men have no voice in the debate. But then you have never had any problem mischaracterizing reality to suit your interpretations. The problem is that when men focus on the philosophical aspect of abortion they leave out the very pertinent and almost all consuming physical and medical aspects of abortion and pregnancy.

Men who account for these two very important aspects tend to have a more well-rounded, logical and fact-based perspective. those who insist on trying to tie abortion to their religious or moral beliefs flounder simply because there is no one consistent morality across humanity.

ETA... That can be said of both men and women actually.

If you overlook the fact that at it's core, abortion is murder, I guess it's perfectly ok. :)
 
Thus proving the reality of my statement that men or anyone for that matter approaching abortion as a philosophical issue is ultimately ridiculous.
 
Oh look.

Another man trying to grapple with abortion as a philosophical issue instead of a medical issue.

Christ.

Something with human cells is killed in the process: such can easily become philosophical.

As I'm not a medical expert, I tend to defer to them on the medical aspects (as I tended in our last major—and still ongoing—argument on abortion).




those who insist on trying to tie abortion to their religious or moral beliefs ...,

I'm kind of doing the reverse.




Thus proving the reality of my statement that men or anyone for that matter approaching abortion as a philosophical issue is ultimately ridiculous.

What if one does the same with animal rights/welfare?
 
Something with human cells is killed in the process: such can easily become philosophical.

As I'm not a medical expert, I tend to defer to them on the medical aspects (as I tended in our last major—and still ongoing—argument on abortion).



I'm kind of doing the reverse.



What if one does the same with animal rights/welfare?


The medical experts agree safe and legal abortion is important and necessary.

Actually what you are doing is still philosophical in nature as it is just the philosophical approach to the physicality of a human versus animal zygote. if you were dealing with the medical and physical aspects of pregnancy and abortion you would have taken into account the gestating woman.

This is the Crux of my issue with people, especially men, approaching abortion and pregnancy as a philosophical issue. It tends to disregard and discount the woman. In your rush to sort through the philosophical arguments in and around abortion the very practical physically and medically affected woman is ignored and shunted to the side.

Which is frankly ridiculous. Abortion is a medical issue far more than it will ever be a philosophical issue. The medical aspects of abortion and pregnancy are universal. The philosophical aspects are not, and very far from it.
 
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