The Reality of Socialized Medicine

[oggbashan]

...

And that, at a very fundamental, basic level is why.

At the end of the day no matter how you dress/church it up....the government is still sticking a gun to everyones head and taking their money to pay for it. It's economic oppression, state confiscation of the means of production, control and administration over the distribution of goods and services.

Nothing M'arican about that commie shit.

So you don't pay ANY taxes on anything - income, sales, etc because taxes are communist?

That makes you an anarchist.

 

[cherries_on_snow]

The math is in favor of single payer option. Wave all the flags you want but fewer children die when society steps up and says no child will be without health care.

 

[BotanyBoy]

So you don't pay ANY taxes on anything - income, sales, etc because taxes are communist?

That makes you an anarchist.

No I didn't say that.

I don't want to pay taxes on shit that's not necessary to secure the state, ensure the peace n' tranquility and the rights and liberties of the citizenry. We need civil services...we need laws to keep order and cops/agencies to enforce them in order to do those things.

I want MINIMAL government oppression both socially and economically needed to achieve that stability while preserving a maximum amount of individual liberty.

Because I'm a liberal, not an anarchist.

Though it's probably hard to differentiate the two for anyone sitting left of center.

 

[oggbashan]

No I didn't say that.

I don't want to pay taxes on shit that's not necessary to secure the state, ensure the peace n' tranquility and the rights and liberties of the citizenry. We need civil services...we need laws to keep order and cops/agencies to enforce them in order to do those things.

I want MINIMAL government oppression both socially and economically needed to achieve that stability while preserving a maximum amount of individual liberty.

Because I'm a liberal, not an anarchist.

Though it's probably hard to differentiate the two for anyone sitting left of center.

It is the UK's democratic decision to have a National Health Service. All three major parties support the principle.

Any major party that didn't would be unelectable.

 

[BotanyBoy]

It is the UK's democratic decision to have a National Health Service. All three major parties support the principle.

Any major party that didn't would be unelectable.

That's good for the UK and I have no beef with lefty shit elsewhere.

If fuckin' Venezuela slaughters 20 million of it's own people in the pursuit of equity and fairness....good for them too.


I just don't want it in the USA, because it doesn't belong here.

It's antithetical to our founding principals, ideals, heritage, culture and traditions.

 

[Blue]

You're like a salesman at the turn of the 20th century telling us your horse-and-buggy is superior to a combustion engine.

Do you know the US is the only country left in the modern world to not have a socialized system? Maybe ponder that for a bit.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You're like a salesman at the turn of the 20th century telling us your horse-and-buggy is superior to a combustion engine.

Other way around champ.....I'm trying to sell you on the combustion engine.

Do you know the US is the only country left in the modern world to not have a socialized system? Maybe ponder that for a bit.

Yup and hopefully they stay un-socialized and get rid of all the socialization that's been implemented so far.

Because USA....land of the free.

Not Soviet Socialist States of America...land of the well kept.

 

[Blue]

Not Soviet Socialist States of America...land of the well kept.

What??

40,000 people in your country die every year due to lack of access to treatment for treatable illnesses.
Medical bills are one of the leading causes of bankruptcy in the USA.
There are groups of 'pro-bono' dentists who roam the USA year-round providing dentistry to poor people who can't afford it.
Your country is more impoverished, less healthy, has lower life expectancies, has the highest infant mortality and higher healthcare costs than any European country.
Heck, forget these random factoids, just do a google search for 'Best healthcare systems worldwide' and you won't find a single study or report from any international medical or reliable research body that lists the US as having anything even close to the top 5 systems regardless of measurement.

Compare my personal anecdote to what you think you would pay out of pocket in my position:
A few years ago my doctor thought I had copper poisoning so I had two huge slews of blood tests, two head & body XRays, an MRI scan, and an intervening check up, within the span of 2 weeks. How much do you figure I paid toward all that?
About $1000. What I roughly pay in annual tax toward the NHS.

How do you figure that US citizens are "well kept"? In Europe there is no such thing as bankruptcy due to medical costs. It's just not something anybody encounters or even conceptualizes. If they exist in any capacity whatsoever, they're extremely rare. Yet 40%-60%+ bankruptcies in the USA are primarily caused by excessive medical bills! It's a scandal when a mere 70 people died needlessly over here due to staff shortages last winter.

 

[BotanyBoy]

40,000 people in your country die every year due to lack of access to treatment for treatable illnesses.

And millions worldwide because we don't treat them either, oh the horror!

Heck, forget these random factoids, just do a google search for 'Best healthcare systems worldwide' and you won't find a single study or report from any international medical or reliable research body that lists the US as having anything even close to the top 5 systems regardless of measurement.

The measurement is always "access" ....they all consider equity a positive and thus rate the US low.

The worlds rich/elites however still come here when they need a specialist or the latest and greatest. Not the UK's NHS.

I wonder why that is considering we here in the USA are all just a bunch of impoverished backwater 3rd world rednecks.

How do you figure that US citizens are "well kept"?

I don't.

I'm saying I don't think they should be....because you can be free or you can be well kept, you can't be both and I'd prefer to see the USA stay as free as possible.

In Europe there is no such thing as bankruptcy due to medical costs.

Of course not, your government will just go forcibly confiscate the production/property from someone else to cover the expense!!

We aren't the biggest fans of that here in the USA, and I'd like to keep it that way.

40%-60%+ bankruptcies in the USA are primarily caused by excessive medical bills!

So what???

If some guy in Georgia that's been living on smoked pork and beans for the last 40 years gets asshole cancer and breaks the bank trying to fight it that's his problem....not mine.

I'm 2700 miles away trying to pursue my own happiness and take care of my own shit.

It is not only a core ideological tenant of the USA but also of the liberal political philosophy/ideology that I should be able to do so as freely as possible without threatening or disrupting the peace and tranquility of our society or the right of others to do the same. It's not the governments place to make Mr.AssCancer's personal problems my problems, not in the USA.

 

[cowslinger64]

I'm 2700 miles away trying to pursue my own happiness and take care of my own shit.
[/QUOTE]

So by taking care of your own shit, you receive nothing from uncle Sam then..

OH wait.. You HAVE gubmint Healthcare and a nice check monthly too.


What a mooch.

After serving my time in the military , I actually did take care of my own shit, not waiting for a handout while whining like a bitch about anyone else getting any..

You really are a tool..

 

[BotanyBoy]

So by taking care of your own shit, you receive nothing from uncle Sam then..

OH wait.. You HAVE gubmint Healthcare and a nice check monthly too.

And anyone else can go get the same retirement I got.

They just have to sign up and go put in the service for it.

What a mooch.

How do you figure? I don't think that word means what you think it means Detroit.

After serving my time in the military , I actually did take care of my own shit,

Even if you did the former, you sure didn't do the latter, you're a union parasite and leftist from Detroit....M'aricas most violent shit hole 2 years running and going for a 3rd!!

not waiting for a handout while whining like a bitch about anyone else getting any..

You really are a tool..

I don't get any handouts high speed....

 

[Wrong Element]

The two questions I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to: If the American system is so obviously better

1. Why doesn't it show up in the one place where it really matters, life expectancy?

2. Why aren't the people in other free countries choosing it for themselves?

 

[BotanyBoy]

The two questions I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to: If the American system is so obviously better

1. Why doesn't it show up in the one place where it really matters, life expectancy?

It does.....just like indoor cats vs. outdoor ones, the free cats life expectancy is shorter.

2. Why aren't the people in other free countries choosing it for themselves?

Because they aren't free and nor do they value freedom.

 

[DawnODay]

In a single payer system, one mistake leads to...

The NHS will suffer cuts worth £2.7bn after the government miscalculated the pension costs of public sector workers, new analysis by the House of Commons library has shown.

The research suggested that government underestimated the costs by as much as £4bn a year.

That money could have paid for the salaries of over 61,900 nurses, the Labour Party, which released the research, said....

It comes after experts warned a government pledge to invest £145m in emergency department upgrades and 900 more beds would “not scratch the surface” of shortages which severely affected the NHS last winter.​

S. Osborne. NHS to suffer £2.7bn cuts 'after government miscalculation of public sector pension costs', research suggests, The Independent (Oct. 1, 2018).

 

[oggbashan]

DawnODay - Yes, we know that the UK's NHS has financial problems. Many of them were caused by past Government decisions that had consequences unforeseen at the time.

But whatever the financial problems, the NHS still covers every UK person with treatment free at the point of delivery.

In the Autumn Budget, the Chancellor has promised to address funding shortfalls in the NHS. That will probably mean more taxation but recent public surveys suggest that UK people are willing to pay more as long as the increase goes to the NHS.

The Labour Party suggest that they would throw billions of pounds at the NHS without addressing some of the other known problems. They don't say HOW they will raise that extra money. Together with other Labour Party policies such as nationalising rail services, water and sewage, etc... They will spend trillions of pounds to promote socialist policies that have proved failures in the past.

BUT - even if the NHS had much more money, and all the private health care costs are included, the UK spends and would spend less money per head of population than the US does - for universal health care. The US spends far more on health care per head of population than any European country but doesn't cover everyone. The profits go to health insurance companies, Big Pharma, and medical negligence lawyers. The US has a bad deal on health care.

 

[dan_c00000]

No I didn't say that.

Caught lying again, eh racist? Not good.

 

[oggbashan]

...

Because they aren't free and nor do they value freedom.

You are showing both your ignorance and your arrogance suggesting that only US citizens are free and value freedom.

The peoples of most European countries are as free as the US, perhaps in different ways, but they value that freedom.

Europe's freedom was bought with blood, much of it American, for which we are grateful. We in the UK and other countries of the Commonwealth also paid in blood for the freedoms we enjoy.

We can elect our governments by free and fair democratic elections. What we want those governments to do is our free choice and most of us have chosen a universal health system that provides care to everyone. We can do that because of the sacrifices made in WW2.

The UK's NHS was set up as a result of WW2. We wanted the injured of WW2 to have free access to health care, unlike those injured in WW1 who had to rely on charity. The NHS wasn't just for veterans because we had many thousands of civilian casualties from Nazi bombing including the V1 and V2 attacks.

"A land fit for heroes" was a political slogan after WW1 and was largely futile. The NHS of 1948 helped make the UK a better society than it had been.

Freedom has a price. It is bought with blood and maintained with vigilance and it isn't only the US that has that freedom.

 

[dan_c00000]

You are showing both your ignorance and your arrogance suggesting that only US citizens are free and value freedom.

Want to see bot stop responding to posts? Try this. Point to the Heritage Foundation Freedom Index.

Then ask how countries with socialized medicine like Australia (#4), Ireland (#6), the UK (#8), or even super evil liberal Canada (#9) be more free than the US (#18)?

Also, important to note, each one of those countries that are more free than the US have significantly stricter gun control laws.

Bot is a lair, a racist, and a total joke. He knows shit about shit and gets absolutely embarrassed every time he posts. I'd feel bad for him if he wasn't such an awful person who I catch lying constantly. Oh and he's a racist too.

 

[Kirkrapine]

Because I'm a liberal . . .

No, you're not. In American political discourse, classical liberal/libertarian != liberal.

 

[RelentlessOnanism]

You are showing both your ignorance and your arrogance suggesting that only US citizens are free and value freedom.

The peoples of most European countries are as free as the US, perhaps in different ways, but they value that freedom.

Europe's freedom was bought with blood, much of it American, for which we are grateful. We in the UK and other countries of the Commonwealth also paid in blood for the freedoms we enjoy.

We can elect our governments by free and fair democratic elections. What we want those governments to do is our free choice and most of us have chosen a universal health system that provides care to everyone. We can do that because of the sacrifices made in WW2.

The UK's NHS was set up as a result of WW2. We wanted the injured of WW2 to have free access to health care, unlike those injured in WW1 who had to rely on charity. The NHS wasn't just for veterans because we had many thousands of civilian casualties from Nazi bombing including the V1 and V2 attacks.

"A land fit for heroes" was a political slogan after WW1 and was largely futile. The NHS of 1948 helped make the UK a better society than it had been.

Freedom has a price. It is bought with blood and maintained with vigilance and it isn't only the US that has that freedom.

Sadly, his attitude is more common than you might think. There's a peculiarly myopic strain in the US, a symptom of the whole 'American exceptionalism' thing I suppose, that seems to genuinely believe that Americans, and only Americans, are really 'free'. I presume these people have never actually travelled to western Europe or Australia or Canada even. They're usually fanatical gun nuts too; another example of unique American 'freedom'. The idea that just because my dad can get a hip replacement, or your auntie can get cancer treatment, and we don't have to bankrupt ourselves to pay for it, we're therefore miserably oppressed under some 'socialist' tyranny, is laughably juvenile.

 

[DawnODay]

Sadly, his attitude is more common than you might think. There's a peculiarly myopic strain in the US, a symptom of the whole 'American exceptionalism' thing I suppose, that seems to genuinely believe that Americans, and only Americans, are really 'free'. I presume these people have never actually travelled to western Europe or Australia or Canada even. They're usually fanatical gun nuts too; another example of unique American 'freedom'. The idea that just because my dad can get a hip replacement, or your auntie can get cancer treatment, and we don't have to bankrupt ourselves to pay for it, we're therefore miserably oppressed under some 'socialist' tyranny, is laughably juvenile.

Oh?

This brings us back to the original inspiration of this thread, which was the Alfie Evans case. Oggbashan explained to me that it was not about the NHS, but a more basic question of who got to decide if a child was worth saving: his parents or the state. In the UK, it's the state. In the USA, it would have been the parents.

I'm a parent. Are you?

I'm certainly glad that, in the USA, we're FREE to make those decisions ourselves.

 

[oggbashan]

Oh?

This brings us back to the original inspiration of this thread, which was the Alfie Evans case. Oggbashan explained to me that it was not about the NHS, but a more basic question of who got to decide if a child was worth saving: his parents or the state. In the UK, it's the state. In the USA, it would have been the parents.

I'm a parent. Are you?

I'm certainly glad that, in the USA, we're FREE to make those decisions ourselves.

Not the UK state - the courts. Judges decide whether the parents are acting in the interest of the child. Parents can make disastrous decisions about a child's welfare for various reasons including religious beliefs.

In the US, if those laws existed, the US Supreme Court would make the decision.

The UK electorate decided that children should be protected from parents who don't act in the child's interest. That was a free democratic decision. The US electorate has not chosen to protect children in the same way. That is a free US decision. Freedom means the ability to make choices.

 

[dan_c00000]

Want to see bot stop responding to posts? Try this. Point to the Heritage Foundation Freedom Index.

Then ask how countries with socialized medicine like Australia (#4), Ireland (#6), the UK (#8), or even super evil liberal Canada (#9) be more free than the US (#18)?

Also, important to note, each one of those countries that are more free than the US have significantly stricter gun control laws.

Bot is a lair, a racist, and a total joke. He knows shit about shit and gets absolutely embarrassed every time he posts. I'd feel bad for him if he wasn't such an awful person who I catch lying constantly. Oh and he's a racist too.

I'm certainly glad that, in the USA, we're FREE to make those decisions ourselves.

Answer my question. Stop dogging. How can countries with socialized medicine be more free than the US?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Caught lying again, eh racist? Not good.

Someone eleses assumptions aren't a lie on my part.

Then ask how countries with socialized medicine like Australia (#4), Ireland (#6), the UK (#8), or even super evil liberal Canada (#9) be more free than the US (#18)?

They aren't....they take more of your shit from you.

Also, important to note, each one of those countries that are more free than the US have significantly stricter gun control laws.

Nope...less freedom = less free.

No matter how much confirmation bias to the contrary you dig up.

 

[Kirkrapine]

No....but there is a 99.99999999% chance that anything other than freedom, like private fundraisers and voluntary charity, which is NOT what anyone here is talking about, it kinda does.

Because anything other than that will require government oppression to be realized.

Real UHC in America means single-payer, which we will be taxed to pay for, and which will drive the private insurance companies out of business. That is neither un-American, nor Communist, nor government oppression in any way.