Fusion

[Comshaw]

I was having a conversation with some friends about "cultural appropriation". Apparently that means someone from one culture using something from another culture. Personally I think it's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard of.

First off I don't see why anyone would get spun up about someone else who has discovered that a particular thing from a culture is beautiful enough or important enough to emulate. After all they should feel complimented because as the saying goes, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

America is a land of fusion. We combine, amalgamate, fuse and weld pieces of different cultures together to form something brand new. That doesn't mean we all need to like the out come. It does mean that new cultural things are being created continuously.

A great example of the is Ganstagrass a fusion of Blue Grass and Rap. You don't have to like it, ,you do have to admire the work of fusing the two totally dissimilar musical genre.

Enjoy






Or not.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG7Ujh0XVH0




Comshaw

 

[oggbashan]

Without so-called "cultural appropriation" we wouldn't have had:

Jazz
Rock and Roll
Ballet
Opera

Classical architecture
The Renaissance

Algebra

and

Shakespeare (he pinched bits from any culture he could)

and the list could go on and on...

 

[WoundedKnee]

Is that a new-age reworking of the term 'Melting Pot?'

 

[WoundedKnee]

Without so-called "cultural appropriation" we wouldn't have had:

Jazz
Rock and Roll
Ballet
Opera

Classical architecture
The Renaissance

Algebra

and

Shakespeare (he pinched bits from any culture he could)

and the list could go on and on...

You left out fast-food Chinese takeout noodles.

 

[HisArpy]

You left out fast-food Chinese takeout noodles.

And pizza.

You're slipping Ogg, slipping.

 

[Comshaw]

Without so-called "cultural appropriation" we wouldn't have had:

Jazz
Rock and Roll
Ballet
Opera

Classical architecture
The Renaissance

Algebra

and

Shakespeare (he pinched bits from any culture he could)

and the list could go on and on...

Point well made. I was referencing my own tiny little corner of the world, but you are correct in that it is a centuries long world wide phenomenon that has been a fertile field for some of the greatest things in human history.


Comshaw

 

[WoundedKnee]

And pizza.

You're slipping Ogg, slipping.

And Mexican food, which isn't even really Mexican!

 

[oggbashan]

And Mexican food, which isn't even really Mexican!

And Birmingham Balti...

Edited for PS: I am still trying to work out why one outlet in Kent seaside town is proud of Canadian Pizza.

 

[HisArpy]

And Birmingham Balti...

Edited for PS: I am still trying to work out why one outlet in Kent seaside town is proud of Canadian Pizza.

WHY IN THE HELL would anyone be "proud" of Canadian pizza?

That is just so wrong on so many levels...

 

[oggbashan]

WHY IN THE HELL would anyone be "proud" of Canadian pizza?

That is just so wrong on so many levels...

They had it painted to cover the side wall of a four storey building.

 

[oggbashan]

Take-away food

I live in a seaside town. We have a large number of restaurants and take-away outlets, many of which are very specialist. Some are very good.

Some aren't.

In my late brother's village they had one take-away. It was run by a Hong Kong Chinese family. They sold fish and chips and Hong Kong-style Chinese food. Both were (and are) very good.

But locally we have a real fusion take-away. They sell:

Fish and Chips
Kebabs
Pizza
Chinese
Indian
Pie and Mash

All their products are tasteless or the wrong taste. They survive because they are the closest outlet to a large holiday caravan park frequented by Londoners. If the Londoners would go a little further they could choose from some quality outlets at similar prices but the fusion take-away ALWAYS has a queue of willing customers with no taste for good food.

Years ago, while my wife and I were on holiday in rural Wales the only takeaway within twenty miles served fish and chips or Chinese. My problem? The staff only spoke Cantonese - or Welsh.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

I was having a conversation with some friends about "cultural appropriation". Apparently that means someone from one culture using something from another culture. Personally I think it's the most ignorant thing I've ever heard of.

First off I don't see why anyone would get spun up about someone else who has discovered that a particular thing from a culture is beautiful enough or important enough to emulate. After all they should feel complimented because as the saying goes, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

That's not what it means. It's a very fucking real thing that goes on.

Example: Many longtime family-owned mom & pop ethnic restaurants here who used to serve good AUTHENTIC eats on the cheap are folding up due to high rents and the slow creep of gentrification. Yet some Becky and Brian from the sticks decide they're "inspired" and get bank loans to open up an imitation version of what those restos did and upscale it for hipster mofos who think they "discovered" some new shit. A bowl of fucking ramen that should be six bucks because it literally costs six bucks to create is priced at twenty or even higher. People glom onto it at first because it's new and shiny, then get tired of it and move on. Funny thing is, even those imitation restaurants aren't guaranteed to be hits in this do-or-die financial climate, but guess who gets the heaviest punch in the entire fail? The people they jacked from and priced out.

Becky and Brian can shrug that off and parachute to the next thing they call a trend. That trend was someone else's life and history. You won't ever get a chance to taste that realness, though.

When you imitate and upsell that imitation, that's not flattery, that's you jacking someone else's shit and the resources that would go to them on some fake shit that only imitates what they did. (White) privilege can do this because there's no cultural cost to them in doing it. Other people? Not so much.

You got a good head, man. So I'm asking you to dive a bit deeper in retrospect. I don't wanna get locked into a circular argument over this because I've done too much of that here and no-life nimrods love drama. But I implore you, do not be glib about cultural appropriation. It may seem "ignorant" to you because it's an ephemeral feeling in your mind, but it's much more than that. It might seem like a mere soundbite or a phrase to you, but it is deadly real for the people who are living it. The ultimate social penalty for those at the bottom getting punched down for their culture while looking up through a glass ceiling at people making mad money using their shit is devastating.

http://ugc.reveliststatic.com/gen/constrain/640/640/80/2017/06/15/14/f5/8j/ph6d5sw4082qbwe.jpg

https://i0.wp.com/inkredibly.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Cultural-Appropriation-1.jpg?fit=960%2C522

https://feralyawp.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/cpntkwgxyaafaoa.jpg?w=676

 

[WoundedKnee]

Riverside town here. The catfish is to die for, but Chinese carp may soon be on the menu too. Probably blackened, Coon-ass style.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

In my late brother's village they had one take-away. It was run by a Hong Kong Chinese family. They sold fish and chips and Hong Kong-style Chinese food. Both were (and are) very good.

But locally we have a real fusion take-away. They sell:

Fish and Chips
Kebabs
Pizza
Chinese
Indian
Pie and Mash

All their products are tasteless or the wrong taste.

You know it as soon as you bite into it. And your brain will tell you immediately if it's worth a second trip.

If imitation and the real thing were the same thing, there'd be only one word for it.

If the real joint is on the other side of town from your house and it's raining cats and dogs, then you put on pants and boots and grab the 'brella and go there. You go there and spend your money there. You let them know through motion and currency that what they created out of their background was worth the effort to go experience. That's what real appreciation of someone's culture means, not waiting for a bland imitation to set up shop down the block for convenience's sake.

 

[BoyNextDoor]

That's not what it means. It's a very fucking real thing that goes on.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[oggbashan]

...

If the real joint is on the other side of town from your house and it's raining cats and dogs, then you put on pants and boots and grab the 'brella and go there. You go there and spend your money there. You let them know through motion and currency that what they created out of their background was worth the effort to go experience. That's what real appreciation of someone's culture means, not waiting for a bland imitation to set up shop down the block for convenience's sake.

We have an Indian take-away that wins awards, some local, some national, year after year.

We have the only Italian restaurant in the UK recognised by Naples as providing genuine Neapolitan food. Yet we have five other pizza joints that charge MORE.

Both places charge the same for great food as national franchises that sell bland processed and reheated rubbish.

I can just walk into the Indian take-away, phone them, or order online and get the meals within half an hour - except on Friday and Saturday evenings when they will take longer.

The Italian restaurant? If it is just my wife and myself I can book a table in an hour's time. For a larger group of six to eight I might have to book a day in advance.

For other restaurants I have a choice of French with a French chef, Turkish, Greek, several regional Chinese and Indian, a wide variety of British from Pie and Mash to local seafood, and half a dozen pubs selling good food.

I can walk to any of them.

Yet people go to Wetherspoons, Beefeater, Harvester and drive to McDonalds and KFC. Often they pay more.

 

[oggbashan]

That's not what it means. It's a very fucking real thing that goes on.
...

When I was a kid we used to play Cowboys and Indians. We even read books about the different Indian tribes and their customs. At our ages the books were simplistic and stereotyped but we appreciated that Indians had different cultures.

We knew we weren't real Cowboys and Indians. We were just playing at them, just as we played at being Pirates.

Many decades later I know that most of what I was reading as a child about Indians was bullshit but that's all we had access to at the time.

In many parts of the UK now the population is far more diverse than it was when I was a child. If I want to know more about Native Americans I can ask a friend who IS a Native American but all he can tell me is about his particular sub-tribe. To me as a youngster all Indians were almost the same. Now I know they are different.

Simply copying someone else's culture can be offensive. Appreciating another's culture and using that knowledge to develop something that uses influences from theirs and your own to create something new - that is paying tribute to what you have learned. You should acknowledge those influences - Shakespeare didn't.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

I wish some of these instances were flattery, but it's not. When you punch down and erase through culture jacking, it's never flattery, it's theft.

We have an Indian take-away that wins awards, some local, some national, year after year.

We have the only Italian restaurant in the UK recognised by Naples as providing genuine Neapolitan food. Yet we have five other pizza joints that charge MORE.

Both places charge the same for great food as national franchises that sell bland processed and reheated rubbish.

I can just walk into the Indian take-away, phone them, or order online and get the meals within half an hour - except on Friday and Saturday evenings when they will take longer.

The Italian restaurant? If it is just my wife and myself I can book a table in an hour's time. For a larger group of six to eight I might have to book a day in advance.

For other restaurants I have a choice of French with a French chef, Turkish, Greek, several regional Chinese and Indian, a wide variety of British from Pie and Mash to local seafood, and half a dozen pubs selling good food.

I can walk to any of them.

Yet people go to Wetherspoons, Beefeater, Harvester and drive to McDonalds and KFC. Often they pay more.

There's a longtime family-run Korean joint in the borough of Queens. It would take me about maybe two to three hours to get there by subway and legwork. It seems like everything here is easy to get to, but it's almost like traveling through three cities. This joint's specialty is samgyetang, a stuffed whole chicken soup heavily spiced with ginseng. Traditionally, it's made during Chuseok, the Korean Thanksgiving holiday week in September, but as a general dinner dish, it's reeeeeally good, so you can get it year-round wherever it's being served. It's especially best as an after-boozing restorative meal, so motherfuckers are usually getting bent while eating this.

https://cdn3.ivivu.com/2014/08/mon-ga-ham-sam-ivivu.jpg

You can get a watered-down version of this as a bento lunch at some quick-serve places, but nothing and I mean nothing compares to getting it mom-and-pop style, where you have to wait an hour for it to cook. I went there from a friend's recommendation on a past birthday. It took me a while to find it and I was the only customer there aside from maybe friends of the owners sitting and talking. They fattened me up so good that day. Still can't believe I finished the thing by myself. It was worth all the time spent going and leaving.

You can't ever imitate things like that. It has to come from a lived source that knows what the fuck they're doing because their mama and their grandmama taught them how to do it right. Now, you can learn from that source and do it as an outsider when you've done the schooling and paid the dues, but that's not appropriating, that's paying respect. There is a huge chasm between appropriation and respect and as I said, your senses knows the verity of these things when you come upon them.

 

[removed9556]

 

[patient1]

That's not what it means. It's a very fucking real thing that goes on.

Right.

Example: Many longtime family-owned mom & pop ethnic restaurants here who used to serve good AUTHENTIC eats on the cheap are folding up due to high rents and the slow creep of gentrification. Yet some Becky and Brian from the sticks decide they're "inspired" and get bank loans to open up an imitation version of what those restos did and upscale it for hipster mofos who think they "discovered" some new shit. A bowl of fucking ramen that should be six bucks because it literally costs six bucks to create is priced at twenty or even higher.

Yes, there's an imitation issue here. There is also a bad business practice. Selling food at cost, particularly in the case of rising rents is a charity, not a business. A restaurant rule of thumb is to price a dish a 3X food cost to cover labor, interest, overhead, and leave a little margin for profit. So if Mom & Pop Ethnicity weren't charging $18 for this bowl you tell me "literally costs six bucks to create" they are in trouble, particularly in a rising rent environment. The fact that you say Becky and Brian Fake are charging $20 makes me think your numbers are pretty accurate. Presumably at a competitive price the Authentic Ethnics will beat the Hipster Fakers.

When you imitate and upsell that imitation, that's not flattery, that's you jacking someone else's shit and the resources that would go to them on some fake shit that only imitates what they did. (White) privilege can do this because there's no cultural cost to them in doing it. Other people? Not so much.

True.

Simply copying someone else's culture can be offensive. Appreciating another's culture and using that knowledge to develop something that uses influences from theirs and your own to create something new - that is paying tribute to what you have learned. You should acknowledge those influences - Shakespeare didn't.

Agreed.

 

[IrezumiKiss]

Zumi, this is a genuine question seeking to understand. I completely understand what you say about local authentic restaurants often being pushed out by pricier, less good versions by people who haven't served their dues, as it were. That seems also to be about gentrification and class and so on. And the original restaurant and its owners are hard done by. My own analysis of that would focus more on class than culture, but I can accept that is my angle and my perceived reality, rather than the truth.

What I do not understand is what harm is done when something is not monetized - to take the most immediate example that springs to mind, the white kids wearing dreadlocks. It's not a look I like, but that is irrelevant. My question (at last!) is, who is harmed by that? And, a follow-up, given that there is a continuum between those openly wearing such a look as a pastiche all the way through to those who have read Haile Selassie's collected works and worked for years on youth projects in Jamaica (for example), how are we to judge what is racist, what is crass, what is a little embarrassing but no harm meant, what is a genuine loving tribute, etc, etc?

Glad you brought that up, Des. I posted this in the Good Reads thread some clicks ago and it's an excellent article about white people rocking matted hair and calling it "dreads" in this society:

http://everydayfeminism.com/wp-content/uploads/wordpress-popular-posts/32474-featured-360x150.jpg

What It Was Like Being A White Girl with Dreadlocks

In navigating through a predominantly white, feminist punk subculture, I never gave a second thought to whether wearing my hair in dreadlocks was offensive — at least to any one other than to The Patriarchy.

Having dreadlocks was part of what allowed me to stop obsessing over my appearance.

As long as I had them, the pressure – well for me as a cis gender white woman – to achieve mainstream, heteronormative beauty standards was off the table.

I suppose I felt empowered by this form of rebellious self-exclusion (the alternative being forced exclusion because I simply failed at womanhood).

While I did run into the occasional asshole on the street who called me a “filthy dyke,” my whiteness led people to read me as “quirky” and “alternative”.

I wasn’t followed around by security guards every time I went into a store. I wasn’t hassled by the cops for hanging out with my friends on street corners. I wasn’t hauled off to jail on the presumption that I was a gang member just because of my nonconventional appearance.

To further my point, being a white grrrl with dreadlocks, as well as someone who wore clothing scrappily held together by safety pins, dental floss and band patches, I was still considered employable and trustworthy.

Without any regard to personal qualifications, even with an incarceration record and no college education, I was often given responsibilities that put me in positions of authority over my co-workers of color.

Despite my rebellious appearance, I enjoyed a level of tolerance from authority figures and society at large that can only be attributed to my whiteness.

Everything changed when I stopped traveling, started investing in local activist projects, and began building a broader, more multiracial community.

For the first time, my peers had lots of questions and critiques about my choice to wear dreadlocks.

The responses other activists had to my hair ranged from mild irritation to downright anger.

People were constantly making comments under their breath when they passed me about “cultural appropriation” – I had no idea what that meant.

Some friends eventually suggested some readings and resources that would help me understand.

I read them and learned more about the history and symbolism of dreadlocks in the US in context to black folk’s resistance movements against white supremacy. I learned that black folks in the US with dreadlocks are not seen as “quirky” or “alternative,” but as “dangerous” and “militant”.

I learned to identify the ways that white colonist mentalities show up in our contemporary, everyday lives.

I realized that I was participating in the shitty reality that, for centuries, white people have felt entitled to taking pretty much anything their hearts desire – entire continents, human bodies, land resources, and, yes, whatever cultural trappings of the communities they colonized that were thought to be intriguing at the time.

Read: This White Feminist Loved Her Dreadlocks – Here’s Why She Cut Them Off

 

[patient1]

Des,

my 2 cents is that the big problem is misappropriating religious or martial symbolism, and when you don't understand it, it's easy to trivialize or disrespect it and give offense.

 

[TalkRadio]

Morgan Freeman: Obama ‘not America’s first black president’

Morgan Freeman accusing Obama of cultural appropriation...

“They just conveniently forget that Barack had a mama, and she was white — very white, American, Kansas, middle of America,” Freeman said. “There was no argument about who he is or what he is. America’s first black president hasn’t arisen yet. He’s not America’s first black president — he’s America’s first mixed-race president.”

https://www.thewrap.com/morgan-freeman-obama-not-americas-first-black-president/

 

[removed9556]

 

[jaF0]

Fusion is a funny word. It can mean a form of Jazz or a nuclear reaction. It's also used as the name for some state level emergency response command centers.