Pence: Abortion will end in U.S. 'in our time'

[Que]

The problems of crack babies do exist, but they are not as bad as they were expected to be thirty or so years ago. https://www.drugabuse.gov/publicati...cocaine/what-are-effects-maternal-cocaine-use

Babies born to mothers who use cocaine during pregnancy are often prematurely delivered, have low birth weights and smaller head circumferences, and are shorter in length than babies born to mothers who do not use cocaine.26,29,30 Dire predictions of reduced intelligence and social skills in babies born to mothers who used crack cocaine while pregnant during the 1980s—so-called "crack babies"—were grossly exaggerated. However, the fact that most of these children do not show serious overt deficits should not be overinterpreted to indicate that there is no cause for concern.

Using sophisticated technologies, scientists are now finding that exposure to cocaine during fetal development may lead to subtle, yet significant, later deficits in some children.31,32 These include behavior problems (e.g., difficulties with self-regulation) and deficits in some aspects of cognitive performance, information processing, and sustained attention to tasks—abilities that are important for the realization of a child’s full potential.32,33 Some deficits persist into the later years, with prenatally exposed adolescents showing increased risk for subtle problems with language and memory.34 Brain scans in teens suggests that at-rest functioning of some brain regions—including areas involved in attention, planning, and language—may differ from that of non-exposed peers.35 More research is needed on the long-term effects of prenatal cocaine exposure.

All symptoms also found in the same frequency of all children raised in poverty. The only real unknown is weather those things are linked to the environment of mothers in poverty and children raised in poverty or whether having those genetic markers makes the mothers more likely to find themselves in poverty raising children in poverty.

No substance ingestion is likely to improve fetal development. Crack babies as Cowslinger means it is a myth. Every bit as much a myth as Reefer Madness was. For the same reasons.

The original crack babies are now 30 years old. Nothing about what their future was going to be like, according to the myth Cowslinger has bought hook, line, and sinker, has come to pass.

 

[RocketLauncher]

Then you're going to have to grant them some legal authority over the uterus.

Otherwise you're holding them accountable for something they have no control over....which is bullshit.

Nope, mom is the gatekeeper of her own body as it should be.

After birth is totally different story.

This is a hard one for me. Being a woman I don't want the State telling it's citizens what to do in regards to their own bodies but on an emotional level I can't help thinking that some men must be deeply hurt by a women's decision to abort. I suppose I lean slightly towards the "gatekeeper of her own body" ideology but I do feel empathy for the decent men that are willing to stand up and be fathers and are denied that right.

 

[KimGordon67]

Actually I think you're wrong. I think we both want the same outcome but you can't get beyond your own personal ideology to talk about an actual solution.

Readily available guns are a product of society wanting them readily available. So too would be abortion on demand.

The difference is that, again, you can't see beyond your own prejudices. You think that my owning a gun only has 1 purpose - to protect against another guy with a gun. But what if the other guy has a knife? Or a baseball bat? Or steel pipe? What if there are several of them who want to drag me with a chain down a dirt road behind their pickup truck because my skin color is different?

You talk about means ends when it comes to guns as if it is something different that the means ends of abortion. It's not.

Neither you, nor government, should have the right to tell me what decisions I can make in regards to my personal health, welfare, or defense. Nor should I, or the government, have the right to do so in regards to your personal decisions of health, welfare, or defense.

It doesn't matter that you feel horrible when you see all the blood and body parts after a mass shooting. Those opposed to abortion also see nothing but blood and body parts after an abortion is performed. The END RESULTS should have no place in the debate because both sides can point to the blood and body parts as support for their ideology to prevent you and I from making those choices.

I am trying to approach the issue from the perspective of whether Gov should have the power to interfere that deeply into our lives. In that discussion, imagery of blood and body parts has no meaning or power to sway the debate. Which is why neither side wants to actually discuss it.

As I've said before at this point in the debate, the times my personal safety has been at risk from another human being (this includes being assaulted by a stranger in a deserted street in the middle of the night, and having a stranger in my house while I was asleep), I never thought 'damn, which I had a gun to defend myself'. Thinking about the incidents in retrospect, I've definitely thought 'I bloody glad HE didn't have a gun', because I'm pretty sure all of the incidents would have ended different had that been the case.

 

[KimGordon67]

Well that and your willful disregard for any actual facts about who uses guns illegally, how they get them, and the many societal benefits to having an armed populace to not just repel murderers with guns which is relatively rare, but all manner of criminal activity that involves criminals preying on the vulnerable. No one needs to be vulnerable. Strong arm robbery is virtually unheard of in parts of America. Nobody's attempted to rob a gun show yet. Not even using a gun.

See my response above (in your case, for possibly the third or fourth time).

It's blatantly obviously no one in this debate is going to shift their position, and everyone can marshal 'evidence' (whether actual stats or anecdotes or hypothetical scenarios) to back up their argument.

 

[BotanyBoy]

This is a hard one for me. Being a woman I don't want the State telling it's citizens what to do in regards to their own bodies but on an emotional level I can't help thinking that some men must be deeply hurt by a women's decision to abort. I suppose I lean slightly towards the "gatekeeper of her own body" ideology but I do feel empathy for the decent men that are willing to stand up and be fathers and are denied that right.

They should have thought about that before knocking up a pro-abortion chick.

 

[KimGordon67]

Abortion freaks already talk like that.

I often wonder how they switch gears when it's time to talk to a friend or family member who is delighted about being pregnant.

"Oh! I see you have a delightful little collection of cells growing within you, congratulations!"

"I am so sorry that you miscarried that inconsequential collection of cells."

"Your collection of cells was stillborn? Did the cells collectively draw breath? Oh, good. For a minute there I thought you might have suffered a loss."

You abortion freaks do yourselves no favors using dehumanizing language in debate. It makes the contrast more stark and gains you no converts to your culture of convenience.

Nice bit of empathy there. You do understand that pretty much every woman contributing this thread has probably miscarried in their lives?

I have never seen anyone treat abortion as a 'convenience'. It's always been a difficult decision, and it's far from a fun process. If you choose to have a baby, you've made that decision based on your desire and capacity to do so, and hence it's relevant to mourn the loss of that potential. If you choose to not have a baby, you're basically making the same decision. I personally don't continue to mourn the miscarriage I had, but by the same token, I know people who DO continue to mourn the abortions they had - they simply felt that there was no other option.

No one who support the right to access to abortion is an 'abortion freak'. No one ENJOYS having an abortion. But they should be available for those who need them.

 

[KimGordon67]

You know a poster is nothing but a total bullsh!t artist when she maintains that only a woman is qualified to pontificate about intentionally & tortuously killing the innocent little human life naturally maturing inside her...

...but that she, a foreigner, is fully qualified to pontificate upon Americans her socialist, anti-Constitution ideals.

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif

I never said that. What I clearly meant was that, by and large, it's the women who end up making the decision (in my experience, usually because the men bailed a while back), and it's the women who end up going through the not-really-very-pleasant experience. You've maybe never had your uterus scraped out under local anesthetic, but it ain't fun.
And embryos AREN'T humans. Try reading some science.

 

[KimGordon67]

Always happy to hear about my country from our overseas friends.

Ask Laurel to build a wall around Lit. That'll help.

 

[KimGordon67]

All symptoms also found in the same frequency of all children raised in poverty. The only real unknown is weather those things are linked to the environment of mothers in poverty and children raised in poverty or whether having those genetic markers makes the mothers more likely to find themselves in poverty raising children in poverty.

No substance ingestion is likely to improve fetal development. Crack babies as Cowslinger means it is a myth. Every bit as much a myth as Reefer Madness was. For the same reasons.

The original crack babies are now 30 years old. Nothing about what their future was going to be like, according to the myth Cowslinger has bought hook, line, and sinker, has come to pass.

.

It's true that poverty is pretty much the worst thing for prenatal (and post-natal and childhood) health. The 'effects' of fetal alcohol syndrome have also been shown to be hugely exacerbated by poverty. All those people banging on about the sanctity of human life should maybe focus their energies on dealing with the poverty issue - you'd find that would actually improve children's lives WAY more than worry about a few abortions.

 

[KimGordon67]

This is a hard one for me. Being a woman I don't want the State telling it's citizens what to do in regards to their own bodies but on an emotional level I can't help thinking that some men must be deeply hurt by a women's decision to abort. I suppose I lean slightly towards the "gatekeeper of her own body" ideology but I do feel empathy for the decent men that are willing to stand up and be fathers and are denied that right.

This is a tricky area, and probably one that's going to become an increasing issue as guys actually start taking on 'primary parent' roles a bit more. I met a guy just recently who was a sole parent of a small child, and the mother was literally living on the other side of the world. Such an unusual thing to end up happening, but it does warrant thought.

If I were in that position of being pregnant while not feeling able to be a parent, but the guy involved did want to be a parent, I think I'd seriously consider carrying to term and giving him the baby (even though I hate being pregnant) ... but you'd need some pretty solid belief that he wasn't going to change his mind in the intervening months, because you're kind of a bit stuck then.

 

[BobBalouski]

And embryos AREN'T humans.

Really?

Then what species is a human embryo, baby killer?

 

[KimGordon67]

Really?

Then what species is a human embryo, baby killer?

Sigh. You know what I mean.
(Also, I've never killed a baby - I don't know where you got that idea from.)

 

[RocketLauncher]

If I were in that position of being pregnant while not feeling able to be a parent, but the guy involved did want to be a parent, I think I'd seriously consider carrying to term and giving him the baby (even though I hate being pregnant) ... but you'd need some pretty solid belief that he wasn't going to change his mind in the intervening months, because you're kind of a bit stuck then.

Agreed

 

[RocketLauncher]

Sigh. You know what I mean.
(Also, I've never killed a baby - I don't know where you got that idea from.)

Ignore him he's being a dink.

 

[HisArpy]

This is a tricky area, and probably one that's going to become an increasing issue as guys actually start taking on 'primary parent' roles a bit more. I met a guy just recently who was a sole parent of a small child, and the mother was literally living on the other side of the world. Such an unusual thing to end up happening, but it does warrant thought.

If I were in that position of being pregnant while not feeling able to be a parent, but the guy involved did want to be a parent, I think I'd seriously consider carrying to term and giving him the baby (even though I hate being pregnant) ... but you'd need some pretty solid belief that he wasn't going to change his mind in the intervening months, because you're kind of a bit stuck then.

Why should you be the one to have all the problems for his benefit? He can have a lab fertilize any old frozen egg and hire a surrogate mother if he wants a rug rat that badly. Or adopt.

Your body is YOUR body and NO ONE ELSE has, or should have, the authority or power to tell you what to do with it.

 

[KimGordon67]

Why should you be the one to have all the problems for his benefit? He can have a lab fertilize any old frozen egg and hire a surrogate mother if he wants a rug rat that badly. Or adopt.

Your body is YOUR body and NO ONE ELSE has, or should have, the authority or power to tell you what to do with it.

Finding surrogates is not an easy job, at least not here. I have actually considered being a surrogate, but again, I hate being pregnant.

 

[LincolnDuncan]

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/375852-pence-says-abortion-will-end-in-us-in-our-time

Pence should be retroactively aborted

 

[Que]

Nice bit of empathy there. You do understand that pretty much every woman contributing this thread has probably miscarried in their lives?

I have never seen anyone treat abortion as a 'convenience'. It's always been a difficult decision, and it's far from a fun process. If you choose to have a baby, you've made that decision based on your desire and capacity to do so, and hence it's relevant to mourn the loss of that potential. If you choose to not have a baby, you're basically making the same decision. I personally don't continue to mourn the miscarriage I had, but by the same token, I know people who DO continue to mourn the abortions they had - they simply felt that there was no other option.

No one who support the right to access to abortion is an 'abortion freak'. No one ENJOYS having an abortion. But they should be available for those who need them.

Abortion freaks was Betty Poop's psychotic appelation. I'm just repeating it and mirroring it back to her. Do try to follow along, or don't insert yourself.

The lack of empathy is exactly what I am pointing out. When your lot insist on referring to babies in the womb as nothing but cells. No happily expectant parents refer to their baby that way.

 

[Que]

Pence should be retroactively aborted

it would probably be wise to refrain from calling for the assassination of public officials that are under Secret Service protection.

They've got far more important things to do than to like keeping Trump alive so you don't end up with Pence

 

[KimGordon67]

Abortion freaks was Betty Poop's psychotic appelation. I'm just repeating it and mirroring it back to her. Do try to follow along, or don't insert yourself.

The lack of empathy is exactly what I am pointing out. When your lot insist on referring to babies in the womb as nothing but cells. No happily expectant parents refer to their baby that way.

I can't even be bothered trying to explain why the two situations are different. If you can't work it out, nothing I say is going to change that.

 

[Que]

I never said that. What I clearly meant was that, by and large, it's the women who end up making the decision (in my experience, usually because the men bailed a while back), and it's the women who end up going through the not-really-very-pleasant experience. You've maybe never had your uterus scraped out under local anesthetic, but it ain't fun.
And embryos AREN'T humans. Try reading some science.

last I checked human embryos are not for example veal or lamb. they also hard called embryos the day before they're born. they also are cnot caled embryo if they are born prematurely. they also aren't called embryos if they are aborted but accidentally survive the procedure. It's hard to believe that we are even arguing about whether or not that clearly alive human being can then be killed after having survived an abortion.

I recognize that there is a continuum here and that just like the gun debate no one on the abortion side of the debate wants to get the camel's nose under the tent. There is a huge difference amongst reasonable people between an ru-486 pill and a late-term partial birth abortion.

Betty Poop's position is that those in favor of the ladder are still the reasonable people in this debate.

 

[Que]

.

It's true that poverty is pretty much the worst thing for prenatal (and post-natal and childhood) health. The 'effects' of fetal alcohol syndrome have also been shown to be hugely exacerbated by poverty. All those people banging on about the sanctity of human life should maybe focus their energies on dealing with the poverty issue - you'd find that would actually improve children's lives WAY more than worry about a few abortions.

You're not entirely wrong about prioritization, but in America we have had an experiment in extinguishing poverty for my entire lifetime and all it's done is produced more poor people. government efforts to extinguish poverty have actually made it worse and have made breaking up the nuclear family financially viable.

As a society having children raised in two-parent households is the answer for poverty and the only way that's going to happen involve culture and morality which I think has long ago left the barn.

Most responsible, feeling people understand that when you commit to having a pet you commit to being that pets caretaker for the entire lifetime of that pet. We can't get human beings to agree that when you decide to have a child you just decided to provide that environment for that child. There are absolutely no cultural pressures or support to keep families together.

 

[KimGordon67]

You're not entirely wrong about prioritization

I don't think so. The concern of 'pro-lifers' for the wellbeing of 'innocent lives' seems to cease pretty much in the birth canal. Then it's all about 'individuals making decisions' and 'why should I have to pay for their mistakes?'

 

[Que]

I don't think so. The concern of 'pro-lifers' for the wellbeing of 'innocent lives' seems to cease pretty much in the birth canal. Then it's all about 'individuals making decisions' and 'why should I have to pay for their mistakes?'

I have no idea how it is where you live but we as a society to pay for their mistakes right now. A mother who is ostensibly single which could easily mean that she has a live-in boyfriend or common-law husband that she just doesn't bother to mention can expect to receive approximately $40,000 it available government benefits per year. Many of the Working Poor do not earn that.

 

[KimGordon67]

last I checked human embryos are not for example veal or lamb. they also hard called embryos the day before they're born. they also are cnot caled embryo if they are born prematurely. they also aren't called embryos if they are aborted but accidentally survive the procedure. It's hard to believe that we are even arguing about whether or not that clearly alive human being can then be killed after having survived an abortion.

I recognize that there is a continuum here and that just like the gun debate no one on the abortion side of the debate wants to get the camel's nose under the tent. There is a huge difference amongst reasonable people between an ru-486 pill and a late-term partial birth abortion.

Betty Poop's position is that those in favor of the ladder are still the reasonable people in this debate.

So you're basically saying that the morning after pill shouldn't be available either? Isn't that technically killing a 'baby'?

I think you'll find most on the pro-abortion side would prefer early term abortions. I think you'll find most women having abortions would prefer them to be early term - unfortunately it's often the hoops that have to be jumped through that prevent that from happening, not 'laziness' on the part of the women.
I think you'll find the vast majority of actual abortions are early term, and the vast majority of those that aren't are medically indicated to protect the life of the woman and/or because there is no way the fetus can survive ex-uterus.

It's in everyone's best interests for abortions to be early term. Most people understand that. It's just hysterical 'pro-lifers' who say the allowing access to abortion means that full-term babies are going to be ripped from the wombs of lazy slatterns.