High School Shooting In Florida

[BotanyBoy]

Not necessarily. I don't know the statistics. I said quite clearly that in order for a law to be "working," it needs to show a net plus over time. If it's not making a substantial difference, it's not working.

I was talking about the definition I quoted, not your other other definition.

 

[Dribble]

Great argument.

Basically, "I know you are but what am I".

You still haven't actually provided any counters to anything I've said, but you do think highly of yourself, I'll give you that.

Nah...I just know I am better than who I am being compared to. If that bothers you...it isn't personal. There are many I am better than. I am not better than these kids standing up leading this change. They are all better than I am.

 

[richard_daily]

I was talking about the definition I quoted, not your other other definition.

They're willing to try anything as long as it means they get their way. It doesn't matter if it doesn't work, as long as they feel good about it.

They want "compromise" and "common sense" when they're not willing to do the former, and all of their arguments lack the latter.

 

[richard_daily]

Nah...I just know I am better than who I am being compared to. If that bothers you...it isn't personal. There are many I am better than. I am not better than these kids standing up leading this change. They are all better than I am.

No, you don't bother me. You're simply wrong.

 

[richard_daily]

Or about that mother who lost her temper and in a fit of rage shot both her daughters. No, she didn't have a history of mental illness.

She did have a history of mental illness.

But no one wants to pay for the treatment of mental illness. Which is why even if guns were gone from the face of the planet, heinous things like murders in schools would continue to happen regularly. Until mental health is funded and de-stigmatized, it will continue to happen. Pretend something else will work if it helps you sleep better at night, but you're all just pissing in the wind.

This all comes down to money. Politicians need a scape goat, because they can't even balance a budget to save their lives, and apparently many people buy their BS.

 

[Que]

"Once the rockets go up, who cares where they come down?
That's not my department," said Werner von Braun

"Once the bullets go flying, who they kill, we can't say.
That's not our department," say the old NRA

I've worked with trauma surgeons. They get real tired.

It was obviously a rhetorical question.

The Slaughter-of-the-Day Club is in full swing, with lights flashing, music blaring, bullets flying, blood dripping, brains splattering, and hand-wringers saying nothing can be done about it. Yes, the executions WILL be televised.

Of course it's rhetorical: you don't actually care about people being killed regularly with guns if they are illegal guns that none of your schemes would have any effect whatsoever on. You're only interested in shootings that prove that you're "right."

You can sort of pretend that some lunatic with a gun, is part of the huge populace of law-abiding americans. Harder to pretend it is relevant when some black felon (forbidden to possess a gun) shoots some other black felon on a neighborhood of people you care nothing about.

Well except you love those gang-related slayings. Espescially the mutiple ones in a school parking lot with 26-year-old "children." not that you necessarily care one way or the other about human life but you love what that does to pump up the statistics that "prove" what a dangerous place America is.

The price of freedom is that occasionally someone abuses those freedoms. That's why your side that hates Freedom absolutely loves it when children are killed because it gives you a chance to scream that you have to DO something even though nothing, short of a police state absolute ban on guns and house to house searches, can be done.

You are scum because you want to leave people who have never harm Society in anyway defenseless, and you're willing to use conflated statistics to make and the deaths of children to make that happen. You don't deserve to call yourself an American.

 

[Que]

She did have a history of mental illness.

But no one wants to pay for the treatment of mental illness. Which is why even if guns were gone from the face of the planet, heinous things like murders in schools would continue to happen regularly. Until mental health is funded and de-stigmatized, it will continue to happen. Pretend something else will work if it helps you sleep better at night, but you're all just pissing in the wind.

This all comes down to money. Politicians need a scape goat, because they can't even balance a budget to save their lives, and apparently many people buy their BS.

I've explained this to you endlessly. Money. Is. Not. A. Problem. At All. Compliance is a problem. Inability to force compliance is a problem.

You know as little about the mental health system as Phrodeau knows about guns or Hypoxia knows about gun statistics, so just shut the fuck up and quit embarrassing yourself.

 

[Que]

They're willing to try anything as long as it means they get their way. It doesn't matter if it doesn't work, as long as they feel good about it.

They want "compromise" and "common sense" when they're not willing to do the former, and all of their arguments lack the latter.

Well said.

 

[briie]

She did have a history of mental illness.

But no one wants to pay for the treatment of mental illness. Which is why even if guns were gone from the face of the planet, heinous things like murders in schools would continue to happen regularly. Until mental health is funded and de-stigmatized, it will continue to happen. Pretend something else will work if it helps you sleep better at night, but you're all just pissing in the wind.

This all comes down to money. Politicians need a scape goat, because they can't even balance a budget to save their lives, and apparently many people buy their BS.

I agree with you regarding the inadequate funds allocation for Health (and Education), and I disagree with many of your views on guns.

It would be great if the public would engage in these discussions on a case by case basis,
instead of being primarily driven by their political allegiances.

 

[richard_daily]

I've explained this to you endlessly. Money. Is. Not. A. Problem. At All. Compliance is a problem. Inability to force compliance is a problem.

You know as little about the mental health system as Phrodeau knows about guns or Hypoxia knows about gun statistics, so just shut the fuck up and quit embarrassing yourself.

Money is the problem.

We have a for-profit health care system that covers fewer people than anywhere in the 1st world, and costs more than 2 times what all other countries in the 1st world pay.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Health_care_cost_rise.svg/750px-Health_care_cost_rise.svg.png

The numbers are alarming: Over 42 million adults suffer from a mental health problem, with over eight million reporting suicidal thoughts. Over eight million adults suffer from a mental illness and are uninsured, and one out of every three adults with a disability report inability to see a doctor due to costs. Additionally, over six million children suffer from an Emotional, Behavioral, or Developmental (EBD) problem, and more than eight percent of youth have attempted suicide. Young females are twice as likely to attempt suicide as compared to teenage males, and one out of every three families report that their child’s insurance was inadequate.

If you don't think mental health care is the root cause of these issues, you're not paying attention.

almost 1/5 of the people in the country have mental health problems, and 1/5 of those people can't afford to do anything about it... You have 8 million people out there who are ticking time bombs, and it's not their fault.

It's my fault, it's your fault, and it's the fault of everyone in this thread who wants to blame guns instead of a lack of adequate mental health care.

 

[richard_daily]

I agree with you regarding the inadequate funds allocation for Health (and Education), and I disagree with many of your views on guns.

It would be great if the public would engage in these discussions on a case by case basis,
instead of being primarily driven by their political allegiances.

I am engaging on these discussions on a case-by-case basis.

And I'm certainly not on the right, or a republican. This is an issue where the democrats and those on the center-left are completely wrong, and I'll call them on it.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Of course it's rhetorical: you don't actually care about people being killed regularly with guns if they are illegal guns that none of your schemes would have any effect whatsoever on. You're only interested in shootings that prove that you're "right."

You can sort of pretend that some lunatic with a gun, is part of the huge populace of law-abiding americans. Harder to pretend it is relevant when some black felon (forbidden to possess a gun) shoots some other black felon on a neighborhood of people you care nothing about.

Well except you love those gang-related slayings. Espescially the mutiple ones in a school parking lot with 26-year-old "children." not that you necessarily care one way or the other about human life but you love what that does to pump up the statistics that "prove" what a dangerous place America is.

Quite a buttload of ascription there, little man.

It's too bad you lack the intellectual firepower to debate the points she makes. But you take the cowardly way out and ascribe positions to her, then criticize her for "her" positions.

 

[Que]

Money is the problem.

We have a for-profit health care system that covers fewer people than anywhere in the 1st world, and costs more than 2 times what all other countries in the 1st world pay.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Health_care_cost_rise.svg/750px-Health_care_cost_rise.svg.png



If you don't think mental health care is the root cause of these issues, you're not paying attention.

almost 1/5 of the people in the country have mental health problems, and 1/5 of those people can't afford to do anything about it... You have 8 million people out there who are ticking time bombs, and it's not their fault.

It's my fault, it's your fault, and it's the fault of everyone in this thread who wants to blame guns instead of a lack of adequate mental health care.

People with SMI's are suppprted by a HUGE industry almost entirely funded by unlimited medicaid money. You have no idea what you are talking about. It takes awhile to get the paperwork through but they are almost all on SSI. Where do you think the 20 million recent SSI recipients came from?

You are doing exactly the sort of nonsense with Statistics that hipoxia is doing about guns just as my guns have nothing to do with violence happening between criminals in Chicago your statistics on the cost of American Healthcare have nothing to do with the subset of those who are on Medicaid and severely mentally ill.

At this point you can get an SMI classification SSI disability for life a case manager housing transportation and socialization activities all at government expense merely for being an addict.

The problem is that the meds pushed by big pharma either have side effects that the patients don't like or the meds don't work as advertised. You can't force them to take their meds and you can't force them into a controlled setting where you can observe and encourage them to take their meds.

The hard choices that would be had to be made with some sort of national Universal Health Care scheme would result in less money for SMI then we have now not more.

 

[richard_daily]

People with SMI's are suppprted by a HUGE industry almost entirely funded by unlimited medicaid money. You have no idea what you are talking about. It takes awhile to get the paperwork through but they are almost all on SSI. Where do you think the 20 million recent SSI recipients came from?

You are doing exactly the sort of nonsense with Statistics that hipoxia is doing about guns just as my guns have nothing to do with violence happening between criminals in Chicago your statistics on the cost of American Healthcare have nothing to do with the subset of those who are on Medicaid and severely mentally ill.

At this point you can get an SMI classification SSI disability for life a case manager housing transportation and socialization activities all at government expense merely for being an addict.

The problem is that the meds pushed by big pharma either have side effects that the patients don't like or the meds don't work as advertised. You can't force them to take their meds and you can't force them into a controlled setting where you can observe and encourage them to take their meds.

The hard choices that would be had to be made with some sort of national Universal Health Care scheme would result in less money for SMI then we have now not more.

Nah. You're way off here.

There is no "emergency room plan" for mental illness.

The problem isn't just meds... although over medication IS a problem. Many of the people involved in these massacres were either unmediated, or self-medicating with substances. Basically, untreated.

As a country, we pay more for less. By a lot. The reason for that, is the profit motive. The profit motive doesn't look at mental health care holistically, and the profit motive is WHY we have over medication, which you yourself admit is a problem.

We need mental health care for everyone in this country, if you want to stop crimes like this from occurring. Nothing else will solve this problem.

I have several friends I grew up with who are addicts. They are not able to get SMI status, and keep having recurring ODs, and you make it sound like it's something you just walk into a door and get help with. That's not the case.

Are you SMI eligible? If so, share some of your experiences with it, because from what I've seen from the people I've tried to help, and the homeless folks I've talked to extensively about this stuff, there is no funding for any of these programs, and they're being cut even more under Trump.

 

[briie]

I am engaging on these discussions on a case-by-case basis.

And I'm certainly not on the right, or a republican. This is an issue where the democrats and those on the center-left are completely wrong, and I'll call them on it.

You're right.
And I agree with you when you are saying that perhaps some of these tragedies could have been avoided if some of those attackers had better access to mental health care.
From what I was told, despite leading in the 'science' or quality part of it, the US lags behind other Western countries when it comes to resource allocation and time allocated for people in need.

I can also see where you and others are coming from, when you fear for the safety of rhose who live in rough neighborhoods or isolated places.
But the gun culture has spiralled out of control, and guns are too easily sold 'for recreational purposes' instead of strictly for self-defense if you're genuinely at risk.

 

[Hypoxia]

Syria. It's been happening this entire time this dumb argument has been happening, and 10 times the amount of people are being killed by government forces.

But you don't actually care about lives being lost. You care about scoring points for your ideologies.

Syria. Side note to bogus wars Dubya started after being installed as prez. A civil war driven by global warming-induced drought and famine and nurtured as a US-Russia proxy war. Is the current installed prez fixing things there?

My ideologies? What may my ideologies be, pray tell? Other than enforcing the US Constitution I took oaths to protect and defend. Other than wanting my grandkids to grow up without being targeted. Other than not tolerating rogues or making excuses. What ideologies?

Lives lost. Do you send out thoughts and prayers, or do you try to END THE FUCKING SLAUGHTERS? That takes change.

If you think change can't happen, it won't, guaranteed. Enjoy the blood.

 

[richard_daily]

You're right.
And I agree with you when you are saying that some of these tragedies could have been voided if some of those attackers had better access to mental health care.
From what I was told, despite leading in the 'science' or quality part of it, the US lags behind other Western countries when it comes to resource allocation and time alocated for people in need.

I can also see where you and others are coming from, when you fear for the safety of rhose who live in rough neighborhoods or isolated places.
But the gun culture has spiralled out of control, and guns are too easily sold 'for recreational purposes' instead of strictly for self-defense if you're genuinely at risk.

The vast majority of these incidents could be prevented through adequate mental health care. Perhaps not all, but far more than any other solution, including gun control of any sort.

In regards to gun culture, gun culture is mostly garbage. I go to a lot of gun shows. I wouldn't want to have anything to do with the majority of the people there. I see tables full of nazi parahanelia, folks with racist t-shirts, and a variety of other low-lifes. But you know what? There are people like that just about everywhere that you go, unless you put yourself in a bubble. And as much as I dislike a lot about gun culture, every once in a while, I'll meet someone who shares an interest in vintage furniture, or building houses, or garage sales or whatever-the-fuck...

Furthermore, a lot of gun culture's distrust of government isn't without merit, although I don't believe in black helicopters and lunar conspiracies and all of that garbage. However, as I point out to people a lot at gun shows and such, they trust the government when it comes to police and military, which is hypocritical in my eye.

I look through it all with a critical lens, and while I think gun culture is filled with some garbage, I don't think that's a reflection on guns. I can remember a time in my life when guns were not a political football. Kids learned to shoot .22s in the basement of a lot of high schools in my home city. A city where that would NEVER happen now. And honestly, I think that's a shame. Shooting is a discipline. It teaches people responsibility, safety first, and anger management in a way that I don't think any non-shooter can ever understand.

Now, used incorrectly, and without that discipline, things can go south, but that's the case with anything... a knife, a bent up can of pepsi, a pair of scissors, a pencil. All of those things can be used to hurt or kill someone.

And no, guns are not just made to kill people. I own guns that are designed to shoot targets, and I own guns that are works of art. I also own guns that look bad as fuck, and yet none of my guns have ever been used to hurt someone, nor would they be except in self defense.

I am the typical gun owner. And what a lot of people on the center-left fail to understand is that they alienate a lot of people like me with their heated rhetoric, and lack of understanding.

 

[Que]

They. Have "Access" . To. Healthcare.

They do not take their meds.

They mix in drugs and alcohol.

We cannot any longer force them to take their meds.

Is this thing on?

 

[Hypoxia]

Is this thing on?

Yes, your excuses are being broadcast, loud and clear, four by four.

 

[richard_daily]

Syria. Side note to bogus wars Dubya started after being installed as POTUS. Is the current installed POTUS fixing things there?

Do you see me letting cheeto in chief off the hook for Syria?

The problem got really bad under Obama however, and I'm not one to say #thanksObama! in seriousness unless it's warranted.

We have two potential WW3 situations going on concurrently, along with the worst human rights abuses of our generation, and you'd rather expend time and energy focused on lackluster arguments for infringing on my gun rights.

My ideologies? What may my ideologies be, pray tell?

You don't like guns, and you're afraid of them. You want them to only be legally carried in extremely restricted areas, leaving easier targets for those who break the law already.

Other than enforcing the US Constitution I took oaths to protect and defend. Other than wanting my grandkids to grow up without being targeted. Other than not tolerating rogues or making excuses. What ideologies?

You're not upholding your oath to the constitution. Calling someone a "rogue" for exercising their constitutional rights makes you look even more like an ideologue. It seem that you can't help yourself.

If you think change can't happen, it won't. That's a guarantee.

The change that you want, shoudn't happen.

 

[briie]

The vast majority of these incidents could be prevented through adequate mental health care. Perhaps not all, but far more than any other solution, including gun control of any sort.

In regards to gun culture, gun culture is mostly garbage. I go to a lot of gun shows. I wouldn't want to have anything to do with the majority of the people there. I see tables full of nazi parahanelia, folks with racist t-shirts, and a variety of other low-lifes. But you know what? There are people like that just about everywhere that you go, unless you put yourself in a bubble. And as much as I dislike a lot about gun culture, every once in a while, I'll meet someone who shares an interest in vintage furniture, or building houses, or garage sales or whatever-the-fuck...

Furthermore, a lot of gun culture's distrust of government isn't without merit, although I don't believe in black helicopters and lunar conspiracies and all of that garbage. However, as I point out to people a lot at gun shows and such, they trust the government when it comes to police and military, which is hypocritical in my eye.

I look through it all with a critical lens, and while I think gun culture is filled with some garbage, I don't think that's a reflection on guns. I can remember a time in my life when guns were not a political football. Kids learned to shoot .22s in the basement of a lot of high schools in my home city. A city where that would NEVER happen now. And honestly, I think that's a shame. Shooting is a discipline. It teaches people responsibility, safety first, and anger management in a way that I don't think any non-shooter can ever understand.

Now, used incorrectly, and without that discipline, things can go south, but that's the case with anything... a knife, a bent up can of pepsi, a pair of scissors, a pencil. All of those things can be used to hurt or kill someone.

And no, guns are not just made to kill people. I own guns that are designed to shoot targets, and I own guns that are works of art. I also own guns that look bad as fuck, and yet none of my guns have ever been used to hurt someone, nor would they be except in self defense.

I am the typical gun owner. And what a lot of people on the center-left fail to understand is that they alienate a lot of people like me with their heated rhetoric, and lack of understanding.

There Are some bad or severely unbalanced people out there. A very very tiny minority, but those are the ones who matter when it comes to these tragedies. It's impossible to foresee all these things.

And not all good people are as measured as you and Que or Ish. Fuck, I wouldn't trust myself with a gun. I'm careless and I lose things, I would worry about tripping on it or forgetting it on the couch when some kid was around.
I wouldn't trust some of my more 'spiritted' acquaintances with a gun when they were drunk, either.

 

[richard_daily]

They. Have "Access" . To. Healthcare.

They do not take their meds.

They mix in drugs and alcohol.

We cannot any longer force them to take their meds.

Is this thing on?

No. You are wrong. I can give you at least a half dozen examples that I personally know about that do not "have access" to health care, and ESPECIALLY not to mental health care.

 

[richard_daily]

There are bad people out there. A very very tiny minority, but those are the ones who matter when it comes to these tragedies.

I don't see people as good or bad. I think most of us are far more nuanced than that. I'm sure I'm capable of horrible things, and I'm sure you are as well. But by being a part of society, we take part in a social contract that we're going to try to be the best people that we can be.

Even if someone is sick mentally, that doesn't make them bad. I don't' think sociopaths, or narcissists are bad people. They are simply sick. Left untreated, those ailments can lead to horrible things happening, as we see in these sorts of massacres.

And not all good people are as measured as you and Que or Ish. Fuck, I wouldn't trust myself with a gun. I'm careless and I lose things, I would worry about tripping on it or forgetting it on the couch when some kid was around.
I wouldn't trust some of my more 'spiritted' acquaintances with a gun when they were drunk, either.

I think you're getting at a very important point that a lot of anti-gunners won't admit. They don't trust themselves with a gun, and they transfer that distrust onto others.

I commend you for knowing yourself that well, and if you think you shouldn't have a gun, don't get one. They're not for everyone, and that's totally ok. I would never suggest someone get a gun or carry one if they don't think they can handle the responsibility. I simply ask that people don't make the assumptions about me, that they're actually assigning to themselves.

 

[mark_j]

Nah. You're way off here.

There is no "emergency room plan" for mental illness.

The problem isn't just meds... although over medication IS a problem. Many of the people involved in these massacres were either unmediated, or self-medicating with substances. Basically, untreated.

As a country, we pay more for less. By a lot. The reason for that, is the profit motive. The profit motive doesn't look at mental health care holistically, and the profit motive is WHY we have over medication, which you yourself admit is a problem.

We need mental health care for everyone in this country, if you want to stop crimes like this from occurring. Nothing else will solve this problem.

I have several friends I grew up with who are addicts. They are not able to get SMI status, and keep having recurring ODs, and you make it sound like it's something you just walk into a door and get help with. That's not the case.

Are you SMI eligible? If so, share some of your experiences with it, because from what I've seen from the people I've tried to help, and the homeless folks I've talked to extensively about this stuff, there is no funding for any of these programs, and they're being cut even more under Trump.

While a lot of what you say may be true, there's a couple of problems with it. You can't compel some one to seek help and it is very difficult these days to get someone committed involuntarily.

As tired and hackneyed as this old cliche sounds:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

 

[richard_daily]

While a lot of what you say may be true, there's a couple of problems with it. You can't compel some one to seek help and it is very difficult these days to get someone committed involuntarily.

As tired and hackneyed as this old cliche sounds:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

You can't lead a horse to water, if there's no water.