Renewal Of NSA Surveillance Program In Doubt

[Rightguide]

When they put the death penalty on officials who unmask American citizens for political gain, I will support it:


Opposition mounts against bill to renew surveillance program
BY KATIE BO WILLIAMS - 10/12/17 06:00 AM EDT

A carefully crafted compromise proposal to reform the NSA’s warrantless surveillance program is in trouble, with opposition coming from libertarian-leaning conservatives and members of the House Intelligence Committee.

The House Freedom Caucus appears dissatisfied with the National Security Agency reform measure, which was drafted by a bipartisan group of Judiciary Committee lawmakers led by chairman Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.).

Freedom Caucus members often find common ground with progressives on surveillance issues, potentially putting them in a position to decide the fate of the legislation.

“If there is a ground zero for that debate, it’s probably in my caucus,” said chairman Mark Meadows (R-N.C.). “I don’t know that [the bill] goes far enough. I think there’s still a lot of unanswered questions with regards to Fourth Amendment protections.”

More here:

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/3...ts-against-bill-to-renew-surveillance-program

 

[ToucheAmore]

I'm sure they are anxiously awaiting your support.

 

[Ishmael]

I hope it's reeled in. So far there's more evidence that their 'surveillance' has been used against citizens for political purposes than there is evidence that they've 'saved' us from terrorism.

Ishmael

 

[Rightguide]

I hope it's reeled in. So far there's more evidence that their 'surveillance' has been used against citizens for political purposes than there is evidence that they've 'saved' us from terrorism.

Ishmael

I fear that's the real truth. I think willful violations of our constitutional rights, especially for political gain, should carry heavy sentences.

 

[Rightguide]

I'm sure they are anxiously awaiting your support.

I'm sure they aren't but I do have the right to state my opinion.

 

[FGB]

Certainly they need to be modified!

The tools are needed to find out about trouble and Quickly...But at the same time safeguards need to be in place to keep them from being abused...

Who Guards the Guardians?

 

[lickitandstickit]

Why shouldn't I work for the NSA...............

 

[phrodeau]

I fear that's the real truth. I think willful violations of our constitutional rights, especially for political gain, should carry heavy sentences.

We have the right to be masked?

How about Muslim women?

 

[BoyNextDoor]

I will believe if and when I see it

 

[Que]

When they put the death penalty on officials who unmask American citizens for political gain, I will support it:


Opposition mounts against bill to renew surveillance program
BY KATIE BO WILLIAMS - 10/12/17 06:00 AM EDT

A carefully crafted compromise proposal to reform the NSA’s warrantless surveillance program is in trouble, with opposition coming from libertarian-leaning conservatives and members of the House Intelligence Committee.

The House Freedom Caucus appears dissatisfied with the National Security Agency reform measure, which was drafted by a bipartisan group of Judiciary Committee lawmakers led by chairman Bob Goodlatte (R-Va.).

Freedom Caucus members often find common ground with progressives on surveillance issues, potentially putting them in a position to decide the fate of the legislation.

“If there is a ground zero for that debate, it’s probably in my caucus,” said chairman Mark Meadows (R-N.C.). “I don’t know that [the bill] goes far enough. I think there’s still a lot of unanswered questions with regards to Fourth Amendment protections.”

More here:

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/3...ts-against-bill-to-renew-surveillance-program

I'd love to see the entire program gutted. Yhe premise was it was going to protect us from terrorists living in caves and using messengers with handwritten notes.

 

[RobDownSouth]

I hope it's reeled in. So far there's more evidence that their 'surveillance' has been used against citizens for political purposes than there is evidence that they've 'saved' us from terrorism.

Ishmael

I fear that's the real truth. I think willful violations of our constitutional rights, especially for political gain, should carry heavy sentences.

Good to see you guys do a complete 180-degree turn from your Dubya-era positions. Remember when you two choads questioned the patriotism of those who didn't support this abomination?

 

[Ishmael]

I'd love to see the entire program gutted. Yhe premise was it was going to protect us from terrorists living in caves and using messengers with handwritten notes.

And therein lies the problem. The 'real' terrorists have gotten wise to the methods and means that the NSA uses. That is NOT to say that they don't serve a purpose. Any organized network is going to have to resort to some sort of electronic communication at some time for a coordinated attack.

But more and more we are seeing isolated cells taking instructions, hints, suggestions from the 'planners.' Eventually we nail the planners but it's like the Hydra, cut one head off and two more grow in it's place.

One of the biggest problems I see is the dissemination of information concerning citizens and the unmasking thereof. This activity has no audit trail associated with it nor adequate compartmentalization so those that illegally make that information public can either not be identified, or held accountable if they do have the authorization to access said information.

Bush the second started the ball rolling and had the constitutional power to do so. And at the time, when all the libs were screaming bloody murder, I posted that not only would it NOT be curtailed but that any subsequent president would continue the practice. Little did I know that the practice would not only be expanded, but abused. Problem Child is probably laughing from his grave and shouting, "I told you so."

Ishmael

 

[DrDelirium]

Realistically, NSA has the capability and they will continue to use it. If Congress makes it illegal, they will just be more secretive- oh wait, they were are already secretive until Snowden blew the whistle on them. Unless we find a way to build Snowdens into the Intel community, we just won't know what they're doing, and whoever supports the regime at the moment will just say that anyone who thinks we're still being spied on is a paranoid tinfoil hat conspiracy nutter.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

I would be shocked if a single person in this thread could post an articulate summation of what this program does or does not do and what SPECIFIC authorities and procedures of the NSA would be curtailed or eliminated if the program is not renewed.

Anybody? Bueller...?

 

[ToucheAmore]

I would be shocked if a single person in this thread could post an articulate summation of what this program does or does not do and what SPECIFIC authorities and procedures of the NSA would be curtailed or eliminated if the program is not renewed.

Anybody? Bueller...?

Rightguide only posts headlines which fit his narrative (of the week, or in this case, of POTUS). The content is insignificant.

 

[Ishmael]

I would be shocked if a single person in this thread could post an articulate summation of what this program does or does not do and what SPECIFIC authorities and procedures of the NSA would be curtailed or eliminated if the program is not renewed.

Anybody? Bueller...?

You're right, but better safe guards need to be put in place...........ya think?

Ishmael

 

[DrDelirium]

I would be shocked if a single person in this thread could post an articulate summation of what this program does or does not do and what SPECIFIC authorities and procedures of the NSA would be curtailed or eliminated if the program is not renewed.

Anybody? Bueller...?

Of course, because revealing the SPECIFIC procedures of the NSA would entail going to jail or at least taking a quick but permanent trip to Russia.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

You're right, but better safe guards need to be put in place...........ya think?

Ishmael

How do you know if you don't know what the program is authorized -- and by that I mean publicly authorized by statute -- to do and how that statutory authority can be -- and better yet actually IS -- ABUSED, thus, demonstrating the need you allege exists for "better" safe guards?

If someone was going to argue that we need HIGHER guard rails on interstate highways, would you not want to know how often vehicles actually go OVER the top of existing guard rails to cause havoc?

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Of course, because revealing the SPECIFIC procedures of the NSA would entail going to jail or at least taking a quick but permanent trip to Russia.

Thanks for proving my point, numbnuts. I'm talking about the specific authorities and procedures that are NOT classified and SPECIFICALLY codified in the federal law under the United States Code. You could actually go look that law up right now, if you knew how.

It's the PUBLIC LAW program that was referenced in Rightgide's OP link which the entire Congress will be voting on whether or not to renew this December.

Should Congress renew the program because it is essential to spying on legitimate foreign intelligence targets?

Or should they terminate the program because it also allows NSA to illegally spy on Americans? Or someone just told you it does?

The law, as written, tells you what NSA may do and often what it MUST do under this program. Based on your vast knowledge of the law as written, what is needed to protect Americans from abuse?

Of course, if your assumption is that NSA will do, and routinely does, whatever it damn well wants to, then I guess passing laws that restrict it or repealing laws that grant it specific authority don't mean anything anyway, huh?

 

[DrDelirium]

Thanks for proving my point, numbnuts. I'm talking about the specific authorities and procedures that are NOT classified and SPECIFICALLY codified in the federal law under the United States Code. You could actually go look that law up right now, if you knew how.

It's the PUBLIC LAW program that was referenced in Rightgide's OP link which the entire Congress will be voting on whether or not to renew this December.

Should Congress renew the program because it is essential to spying on legitimate foreign intelligence targets?

Or should they terminate the program because it also allows NSA to illegally spy on Americans? Or someone just told you it does?

The law, as written, tells you what NSA may do and often what it MUST do under this program. Based on your vast knowledge of the law as written, what is needed to protect Americans from abuse?

Of course, if your assumption is that NSA will do, and routinely does, whatever it damn well wants to, then I guess passing laws that restrict it or repealing laws that grant it specific authority don't mean anything anyway, huh?

I think they have medication for that now. The point I made earlier is that the NSA does what it is ABLE to do, as demonstrated by Snowden, regardless of the publicly available law. So it doesn't matter what's in the law, and it doesn't matter if you or I or anyone knows what's in the law, because the law does not ACTUALLY define the activities of the NSA. Sheesh.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

I think they have medication for that now. The point I made earlier is that the NSA does what it is ABLE to do, as demonstrated by Snowden, regardless of the publicly available law. So it doesn't matter what's in the law, and it doesn't matter if you or I or anyone knows what's in the law, because the law does not ACTUALLY define the activities of the NSA. Sheesh.

If only they had medication to raise you out of your fucking coma.

Prior to Snowden's revelations, the very existence of the surveillance program that is now up for review was classified. So, no, at that time, there was no PUBLIC law governing NSA's operations under it. After Snowden violated national security laws by revealing the program, there was no longer any reason not to declassify the program AND the specific legal authority under which it had ALWAYS operated.

So, YES, today the LAW quite specifically DOES DEFINE THE VERY SCOPE OF ACTIVITIES OF THE NSA UNDER THIS SPECIFIC PROGRAM. Fucking nimwit.

You at least understand, do you not, that Snowden, illegally revealed the existence of a secret government intelligence program that, while secret, was nonetheless LEGALLY CREATED by the federal government under authority granted by Congress in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) which was further supervised during its existence by FISA courts as specified under the act.

You are aware that secret intelligence programs are LEGALLY created by the government under authority granted by Congress, correct? NSA just didn't get this wild hair one day and invent its own authority. Snowden most certainly did NOT reveal the existence of a metadata phone collection program that authorized members of the House and Senate intelligence committees did not know about or had failed to approve in advance or did not know the day to day legal authority governing the program was adjudicated by the FISA court as the enabling FISA legislation stipulated.

Or doesn't any of that "matter" either?

Idiot.

 

[Ishmael]

How do you know if you don't know what the program is authorized -- and by that I mean publicly authorized by statute -- to do and how that statutory authority can be -- and better yet actually IS -- ABUSED, thus, demonstrating the need you allege exists for "better" safe guards?

If someone was going to argue that we need HIGHER guard rails on interstate highways, would you not want to know how often vehicles actually go OVER the top of existing guard rails to cause havoc?

Here we go again.

We KNOW now that the program was used by the previous administration for political purposes. I know that that abuse, left unabated, will not only not end, it will only get worse. I also know that given the opportunity there isn't a loop hole in the world that some attorney somewhere won't dive through, now matter how bizarre the circumstance.

So the crafting is all important, but as it stands will not stand.

Ishmael

 

[Que]

If only they had medication to raise you out of your fucking coma.

Prior to Snowden's revelations, the very existence of the surveillance program that is now up for review was classified. So, no, at that time, there was no PUBLIC law governing NSA's operations under it. After Snowden violated national security laws by revealing the program, there was no longer any reason not to declassify the program AND the specific legal authority under which it had ALWAYS operated.

So, YES, today the LAW quite specifically DOES DEFINE THE VERY SCOPE OF ACTIVITIES OF THE NSA UNDER THIS SPECIFIC PROGRAM. Fucking nimwit.

You at least understand, do you not, that Snowden, illegally revealed the existence of a secret government intelligence program that, while secret, was nonetheless LEGALLY CREATED by the federal government under authority granted by Congress in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) which was further supervised during its existence by FISA courts as specified under the act.

You are aware that secret intelligence programs are LEGALLY created by the government under authority granted by Congress, correct? NSA just didn't get this wild hair one day and invent its own authority. Snowden most certainly did NOT reveal the existence of a metadata phone collection program that authorized members of the House and Senate intelligence committees did not know about or had failed to approve in advance or did not know the day to day legal authority governing the program was adjudicated by the FISA court as the enabling FISA legislation stipulated.

Or doesn't any of that "matter" either?

Idiot.

I'm unwilling to give up liberty for safety. I don't think FISA courts should exist at all.

What records we do have a FISA courts reveal that they are just rubber stamps. why bother with the Kabuki theater? If there is no due process and the targets of such aren't even aware that their civil rights are being violated, What difference does it make if you add a layer of amenable (to the wishes of gov't) government bureaucrats to oversee other government bureaucrats?

 

[Colonel Hogan]

Here we go again.

We KNOW now that the program was used by the previous administration for political purposes. I know that that abuse, left unabated, will not only not end, it will only get worse. I also know that given the opportunity there isn't a loop hole in the world that some attorney somewhere won't dive through, now matter how bizarre the circumstance.

So the crafting is all important, but as it stands will not stand.

Ishmael

If you believe the following report from The Hill from this past July, the "problem" wasn't attorney's driving through loopholes:

The National Security Agency and FBI violated specific civil liberty protections during the Obama administration by improperly searching and disseminating raw intelligence on Americans or failing to promptly delete unauthorized intercepts, according to newly declassified memos that provide some of the richest detail to date on the spy agencies’ ability to obey their own rules.

The memos reviewed by The Hill were publicly released on July 11 through Freedom of Information Act litigation by the American Civil Liberties Union.

They detail specific violations that the NSA or FBI disclosed to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court or the Justice Department's national security division during President Obama’s tenure between 2009 and 2016. The intelligence community isn't due to report on compliance issues for 2017, the first year under the Trump administration, until next spring.

The NSA says that the missteps amount to a small number — less than 1 percent — when compared to the hundreds of thousands of specific phone numbers and email addresses the agencies intercepted through the so-called Section 702 warrantless spying program created by Congress in late 2008.

http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/343785-newly-declassified-memos-detail-extent-of-improper-obama-era-nsa

The point is, where the law is either intentionally or unintentionally violated does not necessarily indicate a problem with the law. It's not as if the abuses you are concerned about were the result of NSA officers saying, "Gee, I didn't know we weren't supposed to do that," thus requiring legal clarification.

And if unintentional violations were the result of management or technical oversights, then new legislation probably won't help that either.

The real point is, do you want this program for the PURPOSE of spying on foreign targets IF it functions according to the manner that current law mandates it to function?

What would be comical to me if it wasn't so fucking frustrating is that people whine about and attack the intelligence community with the same irrationality that gun control fanatics attack guns. It ain't the tool. It's the failure to obey the law.

 

[Ishmael]

I'm unwilling to give up liberty for safety. I don't think FISA courts should exist at all.

What records we do have a FISA courts reveal that they are just rubber stamps. why bother with the Kabuki theater? If there is no due process and the targets of such aren't even aware that their civil rights are being violated, What difference does it make if you add a layer of amenable (to the wishes of gov't) government bureaucrats to oversee other government bureaucrats?

Foreign targets have NO rights to speak of. And that's not the issue. The 'unmasking' of citizens for political purposes is. And if that is allowed to stand how much further are the various administrations going to be allowed to push it.

As an example, Alibaba bin Suicidevest calls my number in error. I'm now on a 'watch' list. Why, because some asshole misdialed? I don't even have to answer. What's worse is that everyone that calls me, or I call, is also on that list. It's a geometric, never ending, progression.

Ishmael