Using basic terms incorrectly...

[KimGordon67]

Where are you getting the false idea that they want "MORE control over both economic and social interaction"?

Please provide your source.

Thanks.

That's so cute.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Anarchists seek to remove/disempower governments they object to using every means possible except the ballot box?

Can't end the system by participating in it.

Anarchist, because they want no government have no reason to vote.

 

[KimGordon67]

Actually, if you read some stuff that's pretty readily available, there's some fairly convincing arguments for being an anarchist and voting. I think it's premised around seeing anarchy as an ideal, but being realistic enough to recognise that that's not the world we (currently) live in, and that you're still morally obliged to influence the current environment in the best way you can.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Actually, if you read some stuff that's pretty readily available, there's some fairly convincing arguments for being an anarchist and voting. I think it's premised around seeing anarchy as an ideal, but being realistic enough to recognise that that's not the world we (currently) live in, and that you're still morally obliged to influence the current environment in the best way you can.

Conformist excuses for posers

 

[KimGordon67]

Conformist excuses for posers

Not really. But it is a slightly complex position.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Not really.

Really....it's like "I want to pretend I'm an anarchist, because trendy n' shit, see got my che shirt!!" but you really just vote D or R just like all the other slaves.

But it is a slightly complex position.

Not according to websters it's not.

Definition of anarchism
1
: a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchism

You can't give support to government authority and call yourself an anarchist.

Voting is a very un-anarchist thing to do.

Anarchy is like political atheism, it gives all government the finger.

That's why idiots who think it's left or right are funny. They might as well be arguing that atheism is actually christian or jewish.

 

[KimGordon67]

Yeah ... real life can sometimes be a bit more complex than a dictionary definition. As I suggested above, it's possible to want an ideal, but also be realistic about the current situation. But 'complexity' can be a bit tricky for people in here ... it's just so much easier if you believe the world is all black and white.

Really....it's like "I want to pretend I'm an anarchist, because trendy n' shit, see got my che shirt!!" but you really just vote D or R just like all the other slaves.



Not according to websters it's not.

Definition of anarchism
1
: a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchism

You can't give support to government authority and call yourself an anarchist.

Voting is a very un-anarchist thing to do.

 

[SlutAddicted]

Then he's not an anarchist, he's just a democrat who's prone to hissy fits.



Definition of anarchism
1
: a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups.


Anarchist don't vote, and they are about as left wing as bald is a hair color and atheism is a religion. If anything they are the anti left wing as government control is at the core of left wing values. Real anarchist fucking hate the democrats, social justice warriors and other socialist just as much as they hate the rethuglican corporatocracy. They want government to fuck off even more than the libertarians and capitalist and generally just do whatever the fuck they want to do, anarchy is a gangsters paradise.

In a gangsters paradise the toughest gangster emerges as a leader. Anarchy becomes dictatorship. Everybody choosing to forego government and live in an anarchists utopia is contingent upon all members of society buying in - its own firm of conformity. Otherwise some seek to takeover or defend a controlled territory from those who want to take at will. So you enforce the philosophy which is self-contradictory or it evolves back to some form of government.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Yeah ... real life can sometimes be a bit more complex than a dictionary definition. As I suggested above, it's possible to want an ideal, but also be realistic about the current situation. But 'complexity' can be a bit tricky for people in here ... it's just so much easier if you believe the world is all black and white.

Sometimes the definition doesn't allow for very much complexity.

Anarchism is one of those definitions.

You can't support government, one brand over the other and still be considered and anarchist.

In a gangsters paradise the toughest gangster emerges as a leader. Anarchy becomes dictatorship. Everybody choosing to forego government and live in an anarchists utopia is contingent upon all members of society buying in - its own firm of conformity. Otherwise some seek to takeover or defend a controlled territory from those who want to take at will. So you enforce the philosophy which is self-contradictory or it evolves back to some form of government.

And that's why there is no functioning anarchal states and why nobody takes anarchist seriously.

Doesn't change the fact that you can't go supporting some flavor of government, and still be an anarchist. That's like picking a religion and calling yourself atheist, it's not really a thing you can do without looking like a total goof ball.

 

[Hypoxia]

In a gangsters paradise the toughest gangster emerges as a leader. Anarchy becomes dictatorship. Everybody choosing to forego government and live in an anarchists utopia is contingent upon all members of society buying in - its own firm of conformity. Otherwise some seek to takeover or defend a controlled territory from those who want to take at will. So you enforce the philosophy which is self-contradictory or it evolves back to some form of government.

A law of nature defeats anarchism: Power Abhors A Vacuum. When power is not held, someone will seize and exercise it. Anarchy is fanasy. If anarchists ever take over, they'll all be shot the next day by an organized force. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

 

[richard_daily]

That's so cute.

Note that he didn't do it.

 

[Greypowerful]

Your Jian Ghomeshi impersonation is kind of off its game today. Where's Mr. Teddy at?

OMFG, I lawled...

Good thread.

Interesting that you know who Ghomeshi is.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Note that he didn't do it.

Note that I didn't have to.

All I have to do is ask you to be honest about your friends in anti-Fa, the anarchist LARP'ers, and you slink the fuck off.

How is it false?

They are promoting anti-capitalist, far left socialist and social justice changes to our society are they not?

My source is listening to these morons talk and reading their webpages.

What do you think antiFa is about?

Tell me Daily....are antiFa's anarchist, or are they social justice dipshits and socialist degenerates.

Can't be both at the same time.

 

[richard_daily]

Note that I didn't have to.

All i have to do is ask you to be honest about your friends in anti-Fa, the anarchist LARP'ers, and you slink the fuck off.


Tell me Daily....are antiFa's anarchist, or are they social justice dipshits and socialist degenerates.

Can't be both at the same time.

They are left-wing anarchists and socialists... The fact that you don't understand that those to ideologies are closely aligned is your issue, and that's something for you to either educate yourself on, or not...

Here's a good starting point:

But what is antifa? Where did it come from? Militant anti-fascist or “antifa” (pronounced ANtifa) is a radical pan-leftist politics of social revolution applied to fighting the far right. Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists who reject turning to the police or the state to halt the advance of white supremacy. Instead they advocate popular opposition to fascism as we witnessed in Charlottesville.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...16/who-are-the-antifa/?utm_term=.cc01b4f6834f

Note, that in the article, they talk about Antifascists going to war against nazis... who were right wing.

Take it all in brother... there's still hope for you.

 

[BotanyBoy]

They are left-wing anarchists and socialists...

The very definition of those two terms puts them at direct odds with each other.

Left wing socialism = government control.

Anarchist = anti- government.

The fact that you don't understand that those to ideologies are closely aligned is your issue, and that's something for you to either educate yourself on, or not...

You can't explain it yourself, you clearly don't have a very good grasp on either theory or how such highly contradictory theories can exist in the same political space at the same time.

Note, that in the article, they talk about Antifascists going to war against nazis... who were right wing.

Being anti-Nazi or anti-fascist does not make you an anarchist, being anti-government does.


Definition of anarchism
1
: a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups


Anarchist are by definition the anti-socialist.

Definition of socialism
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

You can be antifascist and a socialist, you can be an anarchist and antifascism and anti-socialism all at the same time. But you can't be socialist and an anarchist at the same time anymore than you can be a Mormon atheist.

So are they anti-right wing socialist or are they anti-government anarchist? You can be one or the other, not both.

 

[richard_daily]

The very definition of those two terms puts them at direct odds with each other.

Left wing socialism = government control.

Anarchist = anti- government.




You can't explain it yourself, you clearly don't have a very good grasp on either theory or how such highly contradictory theories can exist in the same political space at the same time.



Being anti-Nazi or anti-fascist does not make you an anarchist, being anti-government does.


Definition of anarchism
1
: a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups


Anarchist are by definition the anti-socialist.

Definition of socialism
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

You can be an anarchist, you can be anti-fascism and or anti-socialism at the same time.

But you can't be socialist and an anarchist at the same time anymore than you can be a Mormon atheist.

So are they anti-right wing socialist or are they anti-government anarchist? You can be one or the other, not both.

Again, you have your definitions all wrong. You still don't understand what Socialism is. A lot of people have spent a lot of time on here trying to educate you, and you keep fighting and doing logic pretzels to make your position tenable.

As to your questions: "so are they anti-right wing socialist, or are they anti-government anarchist", Antifa is both...

you have anti-fascist elements who are anti-government, and you have anti-fascist elements who are pro-egalitarian government.

I'm going to ask to you go and look up anarcho-syndalicism now... from whatever source you want.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Again, you have your definitions all wrong. You still don't understand what Socialism is. A lot of people have spent a lot of time on here trying to educate you, and you keep fighting and doing logic pretzels to make your position tenable.

What exactly do I have wrong?

No, a lot of people don't like my POV because it paints their totally not socialist in any way government control over the means of production, distribution and exchange as what it actually is, socialism.

As to your questions: "so are they anti-right wing socialist, or are they anti-government anarchist", Antifa is both...

If you mean there are people of both color in antifa, ok.

If you mean they have a cohesive agenda that is both? LMFAO....they gonna self implode on that one.

you have anti-fascist elements who are anti-government, and you have anti-fascist elements who are pro-egalitarian government.

So you have an anarchist element, the anti-government antifa's and you have pro-equity antiFa's who clearly support a major government doing the distributing (socialist, not anarchsit) anti-fa's?

Two contradictory groups working together?? That's pretty odd.

I'm going to ask to you go and look up anarcho-syndalicism now... from whatever source you want.

Ok, wiki was worth a good laugh. Seems to be describing a total fantasy land where everyone operates selflessly. A socialist utopia that's not really socialist because it doesn't even need a government to ensure equity because greed no longer exists.

What about it? Other than the obvious L-OH-L of course...

 

[richard_daily]

What exactly do I have wrong?

No, a lot of people don't like my POV because it paints their totally not socialist in any way government control over the means of production, distribution and exchange as what it actually is, socialism.



If you mean there are people of both color in antifa, ok.

If you mean they have a cohesive agenda that is both? LMFAO....they gonna self implode on that one.




So you have an anarchist element, the anti-government antifa's and you have pro-equity antiFa's who clearly support a major government doing the distributing (socialist, not anarchsit) anti-fa's?

Two contradictory groups working together?? That's pretty odd.



Ok, wiki was worth a good laugh. Seems to be describing a total fantasy land where everyone operates selflessly. A socialist utopia that's not really socialist because it doesn't even need a government to ensure equity because greed no longer exists.

What about it? Other than the obvious L-OH-L of course...

Anarchists and socialists have worked together for 150 years. If you think "that's pretty odd", it's only because you have absolutely no knowledge of labor history or anti-fascist history.

There's a treasure trove of information out there on the subject. You seem unwilling to accept any definition except for your own invented one, however, so I doubt you'd be willing to read anything on the subject. If I'm wrong, let me know, and I'm happy to direct you to some books that lay out everything I'm talking about in detail, and show you the truth of the basic terms that you're (still) using incorrectly.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Anarchists and socialists have worked together for 150 years. If you think "that's pretty odd", it's only because you have absolutely no knowledge of labor history or anti-fascist history.

So pro-government control (lefty socialism) and anti-government at all (anarchism) working together doesn't strike you as a bit contradictory??

How does labor history change the definition of anarchism or socialism so that they are not in direct contradiction with one another?

There's a treasure trove of information out there on the subject. You seem unwilling to accept any definition except for your own invented one,

Not my definition, Websters definition, for all the terms.

I've linked it numerous times.

You just can't reconcile the two definitions being at odds with each other so you just keep speaking past them. Giving example after example of posers who claim anarchism, but upon closer inspection are really just a group of people who want a government of their liking instead of the one that they currently are being made to deal with.

Making them by definition not anarchist, but dissidents.

Definition of dissident
: disagreeing especially with an established religious or political system, organization, or belief

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dissident

Definition of anarchism
1
: a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchism

Note: the bold part puts anarchism at DIRECT odds with everything about socialism and the left at large.

The last half of it takes an even bigger shit all over the social justice and antifa bullshitters on the left LARP'ing as 'anarchist'.

They do NOT want anything to do with a society based on free association of individuals and groups. That's racist, elitist, Nazi shit right there. AntiFa is openly violent against that, they want social justice, government forced equity in as many social and economic aspects as possible.

They are far left socialist dissidents, anti-capitalist, anti-fascist.... not anarchist.

Anarchist want no government, not a socialist government.

People who want socialism, are socialist...not anarchist.

 

[richard_daily]

So pro-government control (lefty socialism) and anti-government at all (anarchism) working together doesn't strike you as a bit contradictory??

How does labor history change the definition of anarchism or socialism so that they are not in direct contradiction with one another?



Not my definition, Websters definition, for all the terms.

I've linked it numerous times.

You just can't reconcile the two definitions being at odds with each other so you just keep speaking past them. Giving example after example of posers who claim anarchism, but upon closer inspection are really just a group of people who want a government of their liking instead of the one that they currently are being made to deal with.

Making them by definition not anarchist, but dissidents.

Definition of dissident
: disagreeing especially with an established religious or political system, organization, or belief

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dissident

Definition of anarchism
1
: a political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchism

Note: the bold part puts anarchism at DIRECT odds with everything about socialism and the left at large.

The last half of it takes an even bigger shit all over the social justice and antifa bullshitters on the left LARP'ing as 'anarchist'.

They do NOT want anything to do with a society based on free association of individuals and groups. That's racist, elitist, Nazi shit right there. AntiFa is openly violent against that, they want social justice, government forced equity in as many social and economic aspects as possible.

They are socialist dissidents, not anarchist.

You aren't using the correct definition of socialist.

That's the issue here. That's the only issue.

You ignore history, dictionary definitions, and 4 people telling you the same thing...

When there is that much evidence against your position, and you still refuse to even look at your position self-critically, that's a failing on your part.

That's the one and only issue in this thread between you and everyone else telling you that you're wrong.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You aren't using the correct definition of socialist.

Since Websters, Oxford and Britannica are wrong would you care to point to a definition you consider correct?


And pick an anarchism definition too.

Lets analyze the two.

I want to know what you think each one means.

 

[richard_daily]

Since Websters, Oxford and Britannica are wrong would you care to point to a definition you consider correct?


And pick an anarchism definition too.

Lets analyze the two.

I want to know what you think each one means.

We've been through this several times. Other people have posted close to a dozen definitions that don't say what you believe socialism is. You refuse to accept it.

You've got tunnel vision, and I'm not going to keep going around in circles with you when you've been shown to be completely wrong, so thoroughly, and you still continue to use basic terms incorrectly.

 

[BotanyBoy]

We've been through this several times. Other people have posted close to a dozen definitions that don't say what you believe socialism is. You refuse to accept it.

You've got tunnel vision, and I'm not going to keep going around in circles with you when you've been shown to be completely wrong, so thoroughly, and you still continue to use basic terms incorrectly.

Ok we'll go with the lefty view of socialism where it's official state ownership. Because anything short of that is totally free market evil capitalism, because effective ownership just doesn't meet the standard.

Right?

How is that in any way compatible with the definition of anarchism?

 

[oggbashan]

This message is hidden because BotanyBoy is on your ignore list.

The only appropriate response to terminal stupidity.

 

[BotanyBoy]

This message is hidden because BotanyBoy is on your ignore list.

The only appropriate response to terminal stupidity.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh hims so big and bad ass!!