Moral Delimma

[AlotLikePsyche]

I know, I know... why would anyone bring a moral delimma to a porn board?

Because I give you all a lot more credit than you (typically) give each other.

So, here's the thing.

I recently accepted a new position with a for-profit health insurance company. And I am super excited about it. As a person who has only ever worked in the public and non-profit sectors, and who generally likes being outside my comfort zone as a way to learn, grow and expand my thinking and understanding, it is a fantastic opportunity for ME.

I wonder, though, about the ethics of using my time and talent to further a system that is not yet ideal in my mind, and about the harm to society when profit is the main objective, over and above the health and well-being of actual people.

This *is* the system that we have, however. And a TON of outstanding (and necessary) services and programs are provided in this way. That is highly unlikely to change in my lifetime given the history and politics of providing health care in America.

While I would love to see publicly-financed universal health care with cost controls in America, we'll probably always have a system here that provides care primarily through public-private partnerships (contracts) with for-profit providers (as is the case in many other developed countries).

I'm interested in other thoughts and opinions on the subject. My dad keeps telling me, "There's worse things than making money, kid!"

He's a corporate banker, though. And a Republican. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

Maybe I'm just getting old. Old people always turn Republican.

 

[Matthew Craig]

Sounds more like you're a socialist (aka communist) to me rather than a capitalist.

 

[Freudian_Slit]

You're whoring your talents out for money. Which means you're just like so many others in the world. Congratulations.

 

[adrina]

Don't wait for ideal. It will never happen that way. You work towards ideal.

I understand your thoughts but the reality is that it is not where you will end up most likely. You will use your skills and learn new skills and eventually move on to the next thing.

There are two things I would watch out for however. First, burnout. Regardless of what the position is, for this particularly industry there will be a lot of repetition. You're dealing with paper cattle essentially. I know that sounds harsh, but as someone that has worked in an office environment for over two decades... yeah. Insurance is notorious for that. Second, and this is the big one, make sure the company policies aren't apathetic toward those paper cattle. Health insurance is, quite literally, dealing with life and death matters. There will be times that protecting their bottom line means that someone dies. That's just the reality.

Oddly enough I'm at the point now where I'm going for the work environment I want to be in and am aiming for the extra sprinkles too.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

I know, I know... why would anyone bring a moral delimma to a porn board?

Because I give you all a lot more credit than you (typically) give each other.

So, here's the thing.

I recently accepted a new position with a for-profit health insurance company. And I am super excited about it that. As a person who has only ever worked in the public and non-profit sectors, and who generally likes being outside my comfort zone as a way to learn, grow and expand my thinking and understanding, it is a fantastic opportunity for ME.

I wonder, though, about the ethics of using my time and talent to further a system that is not yet ideal in my mind, and about the harm to society when profit is the main objective, over and above the health and well-being of actual people.

This *is* the system that we have, however. And a TON of outstanding (and necessary) services and programs are provided in this way. That is highly unlikely to change in my lifetime given the history and politics of providing health care in America.

While I would love to see publicly-financed universal health care with cost controls in America, we'll probably always have a system here that provides care primarily through public-private partnerships (contracts) with for-profit providers (as is the case in many other developed countries).

I'm interested in other thoughts and opinions on the subject. My dad keeps telling me, "There's worse things than making money, kid!"

He's a corporate banker, though. And a Republican. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

Maybe I'm just getting old. Old people always turn Republican.

Frankly, I think the scope of your moral "dilemma" has everything to do with the details of your new position.

In most cases, I don't see an inherent conflict in the healthcare industry providing its products and services at a profit. They seem to have a far more reputable and ethical record in doing so than, say, the Department of Defense.

Where it gets tough is in an area like "big pharma" turning its back on drug research and development for effective, and well within their technical capacity, cures for life-threatening diseases primarily based on insufficient returns. The government clearly needs to step into that void, and, by that, I don't mean to force corporations to operate at a loss, but to satisfy a critical societal function.

You seem to have a good grasp on what is and isn't acceptable in this regard. I'd say trust your gut.

 

[Saint Peter]

money talks
bullshit walks

There is a guy on this site that fabricates asshooks. Talk about morally bankrupt.

Fuck.

 

[Colonel Hogan]

money talks
bullshit walks

There is a guy on this site that fabricates asshooks. Talk about morally bankrupt.

Fuck.

I'm having a two-for-one online special this week. Sixty pound test.

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/136122ad-4708-495b-8b86-d49df0d0bdd8_1.5c992f5180165375a9857041579df26f.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF

 

[LIVINRFANTASIES]

Denny

When the company where I worked in an office moved to a state I didn't think I'd like I took the first job available since I had a wife and kid to feed. For one year I sold Life Insurance for a then well known company. At least half my route was with low income and no income families. I did well selling life insurance to the people with money. But taking food from the mouths of babies by collecting weekly and monthly premiums was difficult.
It didn't take a full year to realize I ain't a life insurance sales man. I'd do better selling refridgerators to Eskimos. Who knew they need them to keep food from freezing?

Perhaps selling health insurance is different. After all, those poor slobs now days spend their money on lotto tickets and drugs, letting the government feed those illigitimate kids.

It also depends on the individual. Daddy is a banker, get a job in banking. It's an honest occupation owning people and corporations.

 

[Saint Peter]

I'm having a two-for-one online special this week. Sixty pound test.

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/136122ad-4708-495b-8b86-d49df0d0bdd8_1.5c992f5180165375a9857041579df26f.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF

http://www.flyfisherman.com/files/2011/07/fisherman-FFMP-090019-KNOTS-03.jpg

 

[EternalFantasies]

You've accepted the position.

As long as you are certain you're not double checking that decision here for other reasons, then... the position or positions you need to be in, are those that will lead you to developing the kind of career you want in life, and what to retire doing.

If this will give experience and income, then you can move into something entirely different, then, beware. Making money has it's holes. You may not be able to move on to something different that you like, or that will lead to your career choice, coz you're too much in debt, etc.

if this is a short term cash cow, then save save save. Do not buy stuff in installments, do not load a credit card, better yet, don't have one.

This job itself is not immoral at all... but what you want to do in life, is the key.

 

[Hypoxia]

My partner and I were software engineers at a notable insurance company that did NOT handle life or medical lines but focused on auto, homeowners', commercial, shipping, entertainment, etc. None of those raised moral concerns with us. (*)

My partner's sister worked her way up from entry clerk at a *major* all-lines insurer, to systems (computer) chief there, to health division president. She made a lot of money, ruined her own health from overwork, and admits that private health coverage is a scam. She drowned her moral concerns with money.

OP doesn't mention their job. Insurance demands many tasks, most morally neutral. Can the job be approached with a clear conscience, ie no requirements to lie, cheat, distort, etc? No skirting the many, many laws and regulations that apply to insurers?
_____

(*) Funny story: I was confidentially advised that our company, a major employer in several SF Bay Area counties, was being sold to a German firm, the world's largest insurer. I leaked that information to the local press. It normally would have been fairly big news. Alas, Saddam Hussein picked that day to invade Kuwait. Timing is vital...

 

[someoneyouknow]

When there is doubt, there is no doubt.

 

[AlotLikePsyche]

Sounds more like you're a socialist (aka communist) to me rather than a capitalist.

Maaaybe. I've read enough heated debates around here on the meaning of words like that to know I have no idea, and I'm cool with that.

<slowly backs away>

 

[AlotLikePsyche]

You're whoring your talents out for money. Which means you're just like so many others in the world. Congratulations.

Sounds about right.

Thank you!

 

[AlotLikePsyche]

Don't wait for ideal. It will never happen that way. You work towards ideal.

I understand your thoughts but the reality is that it is not where you will end up most likely. You will use your skills and learn new skills and eventually move on to the next thing.

There are two things I would watch out for however. First, burnout. Regardless of what the position is, for this particularly industry there will be a lot of repetition. You're dealing with paper cattle essentially. I know that sounds harsh, but as someone that has worked in an office environment for over two decades... yeah. Insurance is notorious for that. Second, and this is the big one, make sure the company policies aren't apathetic toward those paper cattle. Health insurance is, quite literally, dealing with life and death matters. There will be times that protecting their bottom line means that someone dies. That's just the reality.

Oddly enough I'm at the point now where I'm going for the work environment I want to be in and am aiming for the extra sprinkles too.

This is such great advice. Thank you. I hope you get the extra sprinkles. You can do it!

 

[richard_daily]

Everyone compromises throughout their life... however, I hope you don't turn out to be a Republican... that's just too far.

Healthcare may change soon... it's far different now than it was 10 years ago. Gay marriage was illegal within your lifetime, and most wouldn't have have thought we'd have a black president before 2008.

Things do change, although many things stay the same.

 

[AlotLikePsyche]

Frankly, I think the scope of your moral "dilemma" has everything to do with the details of your new position.

In most cases, I don't see an inherent conflict in the healthcare industry providing its products and services at a profit. They seem to have a far more reputable and ethical record in doing so than, say, the Department of Defense.

Where it gets tough is in an area like "big pharma" turning its back on drug research and development for effective, and well within their technical capacity, cures for life-threatening diseases primarily based on insufficient returns. The government clearly needs to step into that void, and, by that, I don't mean to force corporations to operate at a loss, but to satisfy a critical societal function.

You seem to have a good grasp on what is and isn't acceptable in this regard. I'd say trust your gut.

Thank you. I appreciate the thoughtful response.

I'll be managing the staff and programs of the community engagement and health education units, which is the type of work I've always done, what I love doing, and what I'm good at doing. I've just never done it in the private sector before.

My team will not be processing claims, or be involved with decision-making on the provision of clinical care at all. It's not lost on me, though, that the company and my programs (and salary) will be funded by health-care premiums, which in my opinion, are often exorbitant.

I have mixed-emotions. But, overall, I'm optimistic and trust my instincts.

 

[AlotLikePsyche]

money talks
bullshit walks

There is a guy on this site that fabricates asshooks. Talk about morally bankrupt.

Fuck.

Haha. I'm pretty sure I don't want to know what people use asshooks for. I'm not in any position to judge, though, so... okay.

 

[Comshaw]

I know, I know... why would anyone bring a moral delimma to a porn board?

Because I give you all a lot more credit than you (typically) give each other.

So, here's the thing.

I recently accepted a new position with a for-profit health insurance company. And I am super excited about it. As a person who has only ever worked in the public and non-profit sectors, and who generally likes being outside my comfort zone as a way to learn, grow and expand my thinking and understanding, it is a fantastic opportunity for ME.

I wonder, though, about the ethics of using my time and talent to further a system that is not yet ideal in my mind, and about the harm to society when profit is the main objective, over and above the health and well-being of actual people.

This *is* the system that we have, however. And a TON of outstanding (and necessary) services and programs are provided in this way. That is highly unlikely to change in my lifetime given the history and politics of providing health care in America.

While I would love to see publicly-financed universal health care with cost controls in America, we'll probably always have a system here that provides care primarily through public-private partnerships (contracts) with for-profit providers (as is the case in many other developed countries).

I'm interested in other thoughts and opinions on the subject. My dad keeps telling me, "There's worse things than making money, kid!"

He's a corporate banker, though. And a Republican. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

Maybe I'm just getting old. Old people always turn Republican.

You're whoring your talents out for money. Which means you're just like so many others in the world. Congratulations.

Sounds about right.

Thank you!

I don't see where there is a dilemma at all. You've already made the decision to turn your back on your previously held views. From the two posts above what you are looking for is verification that you've made the right move. Don't. ever. Make up your own damn mind and stand by your decision. If you feel guilty about it then you need to come to terms with it or abandon your newly found quest for money.
The only one you need to worry about pleasing is you. Whether or not someone else sees you as an asshole for abandoning what they see as the highroad is on them. Just sayin'. Choose wisely.



Comshaw

 

[AlotLikePsyche]

When the company where I worked in an office moved to a state I didn't think I'd like I took the first job available since I had a wife and kid to feed. For one year I sold Life Insurance for a then well known company. At least half my route was with low income and no income families. I did well selling life insurance to the people with money. But taking food from the mouths of babies by collecting weekly and monthly premiums was difficult.
It didn't take a full year to realize I ain't a life insurance sales man. I'd do better selling refridgerators to Eskimos. Who knew they need them to keep food from freezing?

Perhaps selling health insurance is different. After all, those poor slobs now days spend their money on lotto tickets and drugs, letting the government feed those illigitimate kids.

It also depends on the individual. Daddy is a banker, get a job in banking. It's an honest occupation owning people and corporations.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Picking and choosing what you *want* to do is a luxury (gift) not available to many, many people.

I'm not in sales, fortunately, and I'm not built it, either.

My entire career has been working directly with poor, vulnerable and under-served populations. In my experience, the poor don't spend their money carelessly, mainly because they can't afford to. They're too busy deciding if they should pay the rent or put gas in the car this month. The notion that anyone *wants* the government to feed their kids is a myth. Safety net programs are not anyone's first choice.

 

[DrDelirium]

On the one hand, we all live in a corporate capitalist society, and one way or another we participate in it. If you pay your taxes- and you do if you buy anything in a legitimate store- you help support the system, whether you work in the profit or non-profit system. And most of the cash that pays salaries in the NPOs was donated by corporations so they wouldn't have to pay taxes and would have more direct control over how the money gets spent.
On the other hand, some ways of making a living are more directly slimy than others, and health insurance is pretty damned slimy. If you take my first point too far, you're just being a Good German, because it's the safe thing to do.
On the third hand, and to me this is perhaps the most important- it becomes very difficult for most people to bite the hand that feeds them, especially if it feeds them well. People generally change their beliefs and their ethics to fit what they do for a living, tell themselves comforting stories, and deny obvious truths in order to avoid self-loathing, or the necessity of quitting their jobs. I think having a job that pays well and is exploitative is an invitation to self-deception and ethical corruption. But most people with such jobs would disagree.

 

[AlotLikePsyche]

Thank you

You've accepted the position.

As long as you are certain you're not double checking that decision here for other reasons, then... the position or positions you need to be in, are those that will lead you to developing the kind of career you want in life, and what to retire doing.

If this will give experience and income, then you can move into something entirely different, then, beware. Making money has it's holes. You may not be able to move on to something different that you like, or that will lead to your career choice, coz you're too much in debt, etc.

if this is a short term cash cow, then save save save. Do not buy stuff in installments, do not load a credit card, better yet, don't have one.

This job itself is not immoral at all... but what you want to do in life, is the key.

I don't see where there is a dilemma at all. You've already made the decision to turn your back on your previously held views. From the two posts above what you are looking for is verification that you've made the right move. Don't. ever. Make up your own damn mind and stand by your decision. If you feel guilty about it then you need to come to terms with it or abandon your newly found quest for money.
The only one you need to worry about pleasing is you. Whether or not someone else sees you as an asshole for abandoning what they see as the highroad is on them. Just sayin'. Choose wisely.

Comshaw

Hi, EternalFantasies and Comshaw. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

You're right. The decision is already made. I am looking for, even asking for, reassurance that I'm not a terrible person, a sell-out, a whore, for acting in my own self-interest.

I don't have that part of the brain that makes other people so sure, confident, and certain. I doubt myself, assume I'm doing something wrong, and fear I'm making a terrible mistake. It's who I am, how I'm built.

It's a strength and a weakness. It makes me more humble, more grateful, more flexible, more forgiving. Those are all good things to be. It also makes me more needy, and more susceptible to outside influence. It's debilitating, even paralyzingly, when left unchecked.

So, I appreciate you taking the time to respond very much. Outside input matters to me, possibly more than it should, and I especially appreciate the reminder that my own reasons are as valuable and valid as any others.

 

[RedAllan]

Over the years I've worked in private and public sectors, also for non profit organizations. I know which I prefer to work for, but in the present economic climate I (like many others) have to eat and feed my family.

 

[AlotLikePsyche]

My partner and I were software engineers at a notable insurance company that did NOT handle life or medical lines but focused on auto, homeowners', commercial, shipping, entertainment, etc. None of those raised moral concerns with us. (*)

My partner's sister worked her way up from entry clerk at a *major* all-lines insurer, to systems (computer) chief there, to health division president. She made a lot of money, ruined her own health from overwork, and admits that private health coverage is a scam. She drowned her moral concerns with money.

OP doesn't mention their job. Insurance demands many tasks, most morally neutral. Can the job be approached with a clear conscience, ie no requirements to lie, cheat, distort, etc? No skirting the many, many laws and regulations that apply to insurers?
_____

(*) Funny story: I was confidentially advised that our company, a major employer in several SF Bay Area counties, was being sold to a German firm, the world's largest insurer. I leaked that information to the local press. It normally would have been fairly big news. Alas, Saddam Hussein picked that day to invade Kuwait. Timing is vital...

Thank you, Hypoxia.

My main concern with private health insurance is that the price for individuals and cost to society is too high, the profits are excessive, and benefit the few, at the expense of the many. It's not the best we can do for each other in my opinion.

I sympathize with the position your partner's sister was in. To be honest, I'm looking forward to managing programs that are fully-funded and fully-staffed, and to being fairly compensated for my work, for a change.

The tasks in my role will be morally neutral, I think. I don't know what I don't know, yet, though... so, we'll see.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Not for profits have to make the same profit margin as any other business.

There is no morality involved in the choice. Both have their good and bad players. People are people driven by human nature and it encompasses a wide variety of ethical standards.