Constructive Criticusm

[NOIRTRASH]

I learned an important life lesson as a boy. My math tutor brought a platter of blue berry muffins to our session. I was in love. She offered me a muffin, I ate it, and said YUM. It was awful. Mostly salt and baking soda. But I ate several of them. She was surprised, and finally revealed she found the muffins in the trash, they looked okay, so she brought them to try on me.

 

[sr71plt]

I figured you directed those comments at me, but "vigilante"? Wow, that's "out there" to use your words. That's definitely ad hominem crossing over into genetic logical fallacy later. To my knowledge, I have never taken exception with you nor even disagreed with you until now. So I see no basis for such a reaction, especially since I address the matter at hand only.

You didn't address the question (actually, I didn't see you address either one of my points). Do you post critiques on people's work here without establishing that the author wants their writing to be critiqued? This is not a critique site where that assumption can be made. If you do that, you're a vigilante critiquer--by definition. The thread is about constructive criticism. My point is that to be constructive on Literotica, it has to be established that's writing critique is sought at all. That's not something to be assumed at Literotica. You didn't respond to the point.

You also didn't respond to the other point--what basis have you shown (not told people--shown) that your critique is worth anything here?

By the way, this right here classifies as constructive criticism of your posts in your definitions.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm surprised at some of the statements made here, especially Pilot's. I suppose I assumed that most authors here WOULD want to receive constructive criticism of their writing. I know I do.

Yep, I think it's a false assumption that everyone is posting a story here to improve their writing. I think that the demographics of those posting to the AH is way out of whack with the majority of those posting and reading stories on Literotica. Most, I believe, are here to share dirty stories. They aren't here to train for a Pulitzer. So, yes, I think someone slapping a writing critique on their stories unbidden is (A) making a false assumption of any sort of contract between them and the author and (B) is asserting their superiority--and intending to do or they'd just pass the story by. There's no requirement here to comment on a story you've opened.

 

[sr71plt]

Yes, that's my view. If you as the author don't want comments, turn them off. Leave it on, take what comes, trolls excepted. Me, the only comments I delete are the truly offensive trolling. I don't object to readers being rude, critical or ripping apart my writing at all. I even enjoy the gook slut ones, they're always good for a giggle.

You too make a false assumption here. Why should anyone posting a story here have to turn comments off to avoid getting an unsolicited writing lesson by someone asserting (often without foundation) a superiority to them and taking on an unsolicited teacher role? Why isn't it enough that they leave comments on looking for a "wow, you turn me on" connection with readers? Point out in the Literotica guidelines where a requirement for posting here is to welcome unrequested writing critique by self-appointed writing "experts." What is it inside you (and others posting this vigilante critiquer position) that makes you justified to force your motivations for posting stories here onto others?

 

[sr71plt]

Bottom line: Criticism isn't constructive unless the recipient is open to criticism. There is no requirement at Literotica that they be so. This isn't a critique site. The writer is permitted to use the site on the basis of her/his own wishes and even is permitted to erase comments he/she doesn't want to have on her/his story--for any reason whatsoever. Those who insist otherwise are critiquing to fluff up their own feathers, not to be constructive. The "constructive" part of that requires active agreement from both sides.

 

[ChloeTzang]

You too make a false assumption here. Why should anyone posting a story here have to turn comments off to avoid getting an unsolicited writing lesson by someone asserting (often without foundation) a superiority to them and taking on an unsolicited teacher role? Why isn't it enough that they leave comments on looking for a "wow, you turn me on" connection with readers? Point out in the Literotica guidelines where a requirement for posting here is to welcome unrequested writing critique by self-appointed writing "experts." What is it inside you (and others posting this vigilante critiquer position) that makes you justified to force your motivations for posting stories here onto others?

Well, they could but unless you as the author actually spell it out, which incidentally I guess is more or less what I do myself, there's no guidelines for anyone whose going to comment. So you takes what you gets. It's a rare comment that's more than a few lines imho.

Me, I spell it out. Long. Short. Anything from wow and it sucks to a mammoth critique is welcome. I'd just say that, as the author, set expectations and if you don't, be grateful that someone likes your writing enough to put that kind of effort in, unsolicited or not.

Im pretty open about my motivators for posting here and what I say is pretty much what I do. Other authors? That's up to each one to decide for themselves. There are no guidelines for comments, it is what it is and I work with that. No biggie. To each his or her own

 

[SimonDoom]

Yep, I think it's a false assumption that everyone is posting a story here to improve their writing. I think that the demographics of those posting to the AH is way out of whack with the majority of those posting and reading stories on Literotica. Most, I believe, are here to share dirty stories. They aren't here to train for a Pulitzer. So, yes, I think someone slapping a writing critique on their stories unbidden is (A) making a false assumption of any sort of contract between them and the author and (B) is asserting their superiority--and intending to do or they'd just pass the story by. There's no requirement here to comment on a story you've opened.

Hold your horses. If you read my post carefully -- and Chloe's too -- I was clear that even if we assume that you're right about what a lot of writers want, it's not clear why it's wrong to comment.

1. It's not at all correct to suppose that a critique rests upon a presumption of superiority. It's nothing of the sort. Person A can have something valuable to say to Person B without being superior to Person B. The reason, simply, is that all of us have a lot to learn from others regardless whether they are superior to us (whatever that might mean) or not. In my case, I've received comments from readers that I am pretty sure are not as sophisticated as readers as I am, yet they said things that I find interesting and helpful. It never occurred to me they were trying to assert that they are superior. That's a false assumption on your part.

2. Part of the fun of being a reader is responding. I may read one of your stories and want to respond. Why shouldn't I? You can ignore me, and you have every right to do so. It seems to me it's no skin off your back if I critique one of your stories. At the same time, if we adopt a culture here in which readers should feel reluctant to comment, then there would be fewer comments overall, and we would lose more than we gain. What's the point of that? It seems to me that the best attitude to have, collectively, is to encourage readers to comment at will, and to leave it to authors to do with those comments whatever they want to.

 

[SimonDoom]

I learned an important life lesson as a boy. My math tutor brought a platter of blue berry muffins to our session. I was in love. She offered me a muffin, I ate it, and said YUM. It was awful. Mostly salt and baking soda. But I ate several of them. She was surprised, and finally revealed she found the muffins in the trash, they looked okay, so she brought them to try on me.

I don't know if this is real or not, and I'm not sure what it has to do with the thread, exactly, but this is a great story.

 

[ChloeTzang]

I don't know if this is real or not, and I'm not sure what it has to do with the thread, exactly, but this is a great story.

Well, add some sex and hey .... voila .... post it. Muffin diving?

Eating my teacher's muffin. Could be hot

 

[49greg]

I learned an important life lesson as a boy. My math tutor brought a platter of blue berry muffins to our session. I was in love. She offered me a muffin, I ate it, and said YUM. It was awful. Mostly salt and baking soda. But I ate several of them. She was surprised, and finally revealed she found the muffins in the trash, they looked okay, so she brought them to try on me.

That brought a smile to my face. Made me remember my first wife. The first meal she made me was chicken fried steak with mashed potatoes. The spuds were lumpy and dry, sooooooo dry. sooo lumpy. Her gravy was like my mom's gravy, bitter and inedible.

I should have done as you did. But instead I was an insensitive bastard and stupid too. I put ketchup on the potatoes (I did that growing up too, taught by my dad, since neither of us could stomach my mom's gravy.)

Then to top it off I TOLD her the gravy was too bitter. I saw what that did, so I compounded my errors by starting to tell her the mashed potatoes were lumpy. I realized my error in time and and followed by saying "Just the way I like 'em". For the rest of our marriage I had to live with lumpy mashed 'taters.

 

[lovecraft68]

Yep, I think it's a false assumption that everyone is posting a story here to improve their writing. I think that the demographics of those posting to the AH is way out of whack with the majority of those posting and reading stories on Literotica. Most, I believe, are here to share dirty stories. They aren't here to train for a Pulitzer. So, yes, I think someone slapping a writing critique on their stories unbidden is (A) making a false assumption of any sort of contract between them and the author and (B) is asserting their superiority--and intending to do or they'd just pass the story by. There's no requirement here to comment on a story you've opened.

Its a false assumption to assume people are not here to improve. Assumptions bring to mind the old joke of what happens when you assume.

The truth is there are people who write here for that reason, to get better and one can get better by getting some opinions on their stories. But also your point of just wanting to share some dirty fantasies is true of some as well, and there's other writing for reasons other than what was just mentioned.

Most everything in discussions like this fall under generalizations. Short of asking individual authors why you're writing here, you really have no idea other than your own opinion.

But seeing how many start writing here, then move on into the paid market to me is proof many cut their teeth here, learn what they can, get some practice and move on.

The ones content to write here and only here fall under your opinion of just sharing.

Neither is the correct answer for everyone.

 

[legerdemer]

I'm surprised at some of the statements made here, especially Pilot's. I suppose I assumed that most authors here WOULD want to receive constructive criticism of their writing. I know I do. I welcome criticism from all readers, and I don't care what their qualifications are. I have received useful and interesting insights from readers whose English credentials were suspect. I'm glad they went to the trouble.

But let's suppose Pilot's right, and that many authors don't care to receive criticism from their readers. Does that make it improper, or presumptuous, or impolite to offer a critique anyway? I don't see why it would. Reader response is as much a feature of this website as anything; the site creator's specifically set up the tools on the site to let readers score, comment, and choose authors and stories as their favorites. I don't see anything inherently presumptuous or improper about offering a critique of a story, whether the critique is solicited or not. If an author doesn't want a critique, he/she can turn off comments, or ignore any critiques he or she doesn't want to read.

As a group, don't we want to encourage as much reader response as possible?

I agree with you, as long as the comments are respectful. I've said so before, in previous instances when this issue has come up, and I respectfully disagree with Pilot on this issue.

I feel that it is part of the bargain of each author with the site - once the work is up, it is available not only for free reading but also for free commenting. It is up to me as an author to decide whether there's anything of use in any comment, even polite ones that I disagree with. At the very least, I get some (slight) better insight into one reader's view of my writing. Everyone's mileage may vary.

Mind you, I don't endorse gross/violent/rude comments. I want people's opinions of my writing, and if they have a suggestion, I consider it. Sometimes only for a millisecond.

I suppose the site could add, as some other poetry sites have, for example, an indicator--to be filled out by the author--whether the the author is open to honest comments, only supportive comments, or no comments at all.

 

[lovecraft68]

Big time broad brush painting here, but I think if someone leaves comments open they are asking for opinions. Whether they like, hate, listen to, or ignore them is another story.

There are people here who seem to need a 'comment only if you think my story the best ever' As for being qualified, anyone is qualified to render an opinion on a story. Any reader can say what they liked and didn't like. The author just has to realize that both good and bad is only opinions.

For more detailed critique it doesn't take a professional editor to say "You keep using too in place of to, may want to work on that" and the author can decide if he thinks that's true and wants to work on it or say fuck you and keep doing it wrong.

The vigilante criticism smacks of thin skin as does the incessant use of that term, and the 'I don't care' but yet I'll say another hundred times how no one here is qualified to judge my work.

 

[sr71plt]

I feel that it is part of the bargain of each author with the site

Show me where your "feel" matches up with Literotica's given parameters for their contract with the author in posting stories to this site. This is where the term "vigilante" enters into the discussion.

 

[sr71plt]

Big time broad brush painting here, but I think if someone leaves comments open they are asking for opinions. Whether they like, hate, listen to, or ignore them is another story.

There are people here who seem to need a 'comment only if you think my story the best ever' As for being qualified, anyone is qualified to render an opinion on a story. Any reader can say what they liked and didn't like. The author just has to realize that both good and bad is only opinions.

For more detailed critique it doesn't take a professional editor to say "You keep using too in place of to, may want to work on that" and the author can decide if he thinks that's true and wants to work on it or say fuck you and keep doing it wrong.

The vigilante criticism smacks of thin skin as does the incessant use of that term, and the 'I don't care' but yet I'll say another hundred times how no one here is qualified to judge my work.

All of which justifies the use of the term "vigilante"--taking upon oneself the authority to take action that isn't sanctioned by the entity that actually has that authority--and that is entirely based on a self-proclaimed assumptions that everyone else is subject to your self-asserted "right."

 

[Malraux]

I would like to know if the reader liked the story.

I watched a backstabbing argument play out in the comments after my first story posted. Finally I realized I could remove comments--I'd never considered it. Now I remove comments that are mean; negative ones are just part of the game so I leave them, and I've developed a thicker skin.

I wonder at the long, anonymous critique, almost as if a creative writing teacher were schooling me. For some reason, I am less likely to consider the advice since the writer is anonymous--even though a pseudonym is not much of an identifier, either.

 

[sr71plt]

I wonder at the long, anonymous critique, almost as if a creative writing teacher were schooling me. For some reason, I am less likely to consider the advice since the writer is anonymous--even though a pseudonym is not much of an identifier, either.

Those types of comments tell me more about the critiquer than the writer--and the critiquer's need for superiority. That is, of course, unless the writer has asked for comment on the writing itself.

And, interestingly enough, I've now received a PM from a prolific author here specifically about just such story comments by Comentarista82 (who is not an author at Literotica) that the author considers harassment, has asked to stop without effect, and now just routinely deletes.

Internet sites like this are tough because, without the likelihood that a critiquer's bona fides can be checked out by authors, the author is left with what they can see within the confines of this site as to whether the criticism is valid, let alone constructive, and won't do more harm to follow than good. The limited means of determining that here include the critiquer having output available here him/herself to look at and/or a history of giving what seems to be valid and good critique when it's been asked for (mostly on the Feedback board here) and demonstrated in well-sourced responses to writing question on the board. There are posters here whose comments I would respect and take a good look at. Not all that many, though, because of the limited means the site naturally provides to evaluate the evaluaters.

The case of someone self-declaring without any evidence given on the site itself to back it up, giving detailed writing critique where it wasn't sought, and continuing to do so after asked to stop is a case of someone trying to puff themselves up--often for no reason related to writing expertise at all.

If you persist in giving detailed critique openly in the comments on the story rather than establishing first that the writer welcomes writing critique in private message exchange--and then giving the critique privately too, that critique is more about puffing yourself up than giving anyone constructive help (unless you are running on assumptions you haven't given much thought to).