Feedback for lesbian piece

[AwkwardMD]

Story: https://www.literotica.com/s/the-favor-8

Genre: Lesbian

Any feedback and opinions are appreciated. This story does use some experimental narrative techniques. Things I'm sure others have tried but was new to me.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Powerful. Didn't expect the intensity of the twist, but knew something was coming... just not so bad.

Don't succumb to, "oh, but you must write more..." No, some pieces work very nicely, just by themselves. This is one of them.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I really liked this. Nice work. Sorry not to be more specific, but it's been a busy week and my brain's checked out for the weekend.

re. sequels, I once wrote a story that ended with the discovery of the protagonist's seventy-years-dead corpse, and somebody still wanted a continuation

 

[8letters]

I'm not a Lesbian reader and the Lesbian readers did apparently like it. I found it to be like a Michael Bay movie without explosions - two cartoonish characters running around doing stuff that makes no sense.

What was the point of the first scene? It didn't tell us anything about Tracy other than she's married. It did tell us that bright light and noise were painful for Tracy. So when she escapes from the hospital the next day, Brit takes her to a sunny SoCal beach. No bright light or noise there.

The story is filled with head-shaking moments like that. Tracy decides she can't take being in the hospital after one day. One day? She knows there's something seriously wrong with her, she can barely stand up straight but the boredom is too much after one day.

The scene at Hooter's was odd. Tracy knows enough to know that Hooters is breastaurant, but can't remember that Hooter's was her favorite place to eat, what she thought of the food there or why she really came to Hooter's. Turns out that Brit is not only an IT person, she's an expert on how to recover memory. (Aside - one IT person and a staff of 6 quality people? Nah) Of course, there's nothing like severe memory loss to get you into the mood to check out how hot the waitresses are. When Tracy sees tentacles in her drink, it scares Brit and Tracy so much that they do the logical thing - go visit Tracy's office.

There, we get to the kind of interesting part. The premise that Tracy losing her memory allowed her to realize that she's sexually attracted to Brit is interesting. Tracy and Britt start making out and interrupted by the arrival of a co-worker in the office area. They sneak past him though he hears them. They run upstairs giggling. Louis is probably on the phone to the police, telling them that someone is sneaking around the plant. So that makes it the perfect time to have sex.

After having sex, Brit takes Tracy home. Neither of them apparently thought to call Jeff to let him know that Tracy is okay. Now, if I was married to someone who suffered a severe memory loss and someone brought her to my house after she had disappeared from the hospital, I'd be so relieved. Not Jeff. He's really angry that Tracy didn't answer her phone all day. And he's really, really upset that when his wife tried to kill herself that he had to get the noose down from the rafter. So upset about it that he tells a total stranger that Tracy tried to kill herself even though he tried to hide it from the EMT who treated her. The fact that his wife is in such a state that she'd want to kill herself doesn't seem to bother him at all. Then when Tracy doesn't go in to the house like he commands her to, he's done with her - he walks back into the house and leaves her outside with a woman he doesn't know.

I've been wondering the whole story what was the medical condition that landed Tracy in the hospital and gave her the severe memory loss. And the answer is - not given. Maybe brain damage during the suicide attempt? Maybe an alien that transforms into a car zapped her with a memory loss ray? And wouldn't the noose have left rope burns on her throat that would still be painful and visually obvious the next day?

But other than that, good story.

 

[AwkwardMD]

A Michael Bay movie without explosions is an oxymoron.

Tracy was my second attempt at writing an extremely unreliable narrator. I gave her retrograde psychogenic amnesia, which is to say that her memory loss is not from the fall (brain trauma), but from the subconscious brain actively walling off nearly all of her memories as a survival tactic against significant psychological stress (kids moving away, midlife crisis, feeling trapped in a marriage even though Jeff isn't a bad guy). Psychogenic amnesia often causes a loss of autobiographical memory (who am I)while retaining semantic memory (general world knowledge)

Ultimately, the real point of the first scene is the barely heard dialogue where her husband is insisting to the doctor that she hasn't been acting abnormally (basic admittance questions whenever suicide is even remotely suspected). Hospitals are as careful as they can be to catch suicide attempts, and here Tracy slips through the cracks because Jeff is sort of covering for her. His deception is well-meaning, thinking it's what Tracy would want him to do and say.

Tracy is a character who normally can't sit still. Giving her amnesia, as a storyteller, was an attempt to strip away the learned behaviours of an adult and explore the unfiltered reactions of the character I tried to create. She doesn't want to be there and she doesn't feel like they're helping her the way she wants to be helped. Also, the idea was that her amnesia stripped away thoughts like "I wonder how much my insurance will cover of this". She's relying on basic fight or flight.

The connection between smell and memory is not any kind of gnostic mysticism, and if Brit was an expert in memory recovery then the story would have veen over much more quickly.

Quality department of 7 (including Tracy) and 1 IT person is literally how the company I work for functions.

It's hard to look past you willfully misattributing the characters motivations. Brit is attempting to help someone she cares for, and one who is placing restrictions on her choices for bad, albeit consistent, reasons.

Night shift work at a big plant has some people, while not a lot, moving through the buildings at all hours. Cleaning personnel, security personnel, etc. It's makes you paranoid (worked two years as an overnight Quality supervisor), but it doesn't have you dialing 911 every time you hear a noise.

Your criticisms of Jeff are fair. Everyone would like to think of themselves as the kind of person who would be compassionate in the face of a loved one attempting suicide, but his reaction is not something I made up out of the blue. He feels like she tried to leave him, once at home and then again at the hospital, and he's clueless trying to explain why to their daughters. He's the one left picking up the pieces, and that's an unenviable position. Severe psychological stress, for both Jeff and Tracy, caused them to behave extremely erratically.

When I was done writing it, I was less happy with how Jeff came out. I was worried it would be read like some kind of man-hating sapphic diatribe, and that wasn't really the intention. The goal was for him to be justifiably upset that she had hurt him, regardless of whether or not she was in a state to handle the implications of her actions. Although he ended up angrier than I intended, I didn't feel like Jeff came off "unbelievably", as in literally non-believable, so I left his rant largely intact as it came out in the first draft.

Tracy never got to the noose. If she'd had rope burns, the hospital would have quarantined her and put her on suicide watch. Her injury is on the side of her head, where she fell and hit the coffee table. Her injury isn't fully explained because there were no witnesses and Tracy can't remember exactly. I'm OK with the story not explaining the specific source of the injury because it doesn't matter in the end. What matters are the consequences.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Thank you for the compliment on using amnesia to help Tracy admit her feelings. That was a huge component of the story. A lot of things were building up to that.

 

[AwkwardMD]

When you referred to them as cartoonish, are you talking about Tracy's hallucinations?

 

[AwkwardMD]

Btw, thank you everyone for reading and commenting. It's sincerely appreciated.

 

[8letters]

Ultimately, the real point of the first scene is the barely heard dialogue where her husband is insisting to the doctor that she hasn't been acting abnormally (basic admittance questions whenever suicide is even remotely suspected). Hospitals are as careful as they can be to catch suicide attempts, and here Tracy slips through the cracks because Jeff is sort of covering for her. His deception is well-meaning, thinking it's what Tracy would want him to do and say.
:
Your criticisms of Jeff are fair. Everyone would like to think of themselves as the kind of person who would be compassionate in the face of a loved one attempting suicide, but his reaction is not something I made up out of the blue. He feels like she tried to leave him, once at home and then again at the hospital, and he's clueless trying to explain why to their daughters. He's the one left picking up the pieces, and that's an unenviable position. Severe psychological stress, for both Jeff and Tracy, caused them to behave extremely erratically.

Why wouldn't Jeff want to admit that Tracy tried to commit suicide? Why wouldn't he want her to get treatment so that she doesn't try again? Why would he cover it up and lie about it? I don't know much about suicide but I feel like if my SO were to try to commit suicide, I'd be open and honest with any medical person I came into contact.

Why even have Tracy try to commit suicide? Why not have her fall, strike her head and that triggers the amnesia? You throw it in out of the blue at the end and I felt like you trivialized it.

Most importantly, you give Jeff one little line and we are suppose to get from that that Tracy is suffering from significant psychological stress? Surprisingly enough, I don't enough about retrograde psychogenic amnesia to recognize it from the few details you provide. It seems like she has a great life - a caring husband, two lovely daughters, a great job.

Tracy is a character who normally can't sit still. Giving her amnesia, as a storyteller, was an attempt to strip away the learned behaviours of an adult and explore the unfiltered reactions of the character I tried to create. She doesn't want to be there and she doesn't feel like they're helping her the way she wants to be helped. Also, the idea was that her amnesia stripped away thoughts like "I wonder how much my insurance will cover of this". She's relying on basic fight or flight.

Tracy knows she's in pain. She's a little wobbly. She knows her mind isn't functioning correctly. Now, if you had presented her as someone who is deeply trustful of traditional medicine, the flight idea would make more sense. Otherwise, she's where she's needs to be to get treatment and fleeing makes no sense. She can't sit still? She could walk around her floor. She could talk with the nurses or other patients. She could search for the perfect item in the hospital's many vending machines.

When you referred to them as cartoonish, are you talking about Tracy's hallucinations?

No. They make stupid decisions whose only justification is to further the plot. I listed a whole bunch of them. Jeff is a cartoonish abusive husband. Giving a character amnesia comes pretty close to cartoonish in and of itself.

It's hard to look past you willfully misattributing the characters motivations. Brit is attempting to help someone she cares for, and one who is placing restrictions on her choices for bad, albeit consistent, reasons.

See above. If I picked up a friend from the hospital and they made it clear that they had serious mental issues and left on their own, I'm taking them back and/or calling their family. Maybe I'd bargain with them - we'll go to a Starbucks for a coffee and then I'll take you back. Maybe I'd take them to Starbucks and call 911 from the bathroom. "Let's go to the beach!" would never cross my mind.

Quality department of 7 (including Tracy) and 1 IT person is literally how the company I work for functions.

OK. I stand corrected.

Night shift work at a big plant has some people, while not a lot, moving through the buildings at all hours. Cleaning personnel, security personnel, etc. It's makes you paranoid (worked two years as an overnight Quality supervisor), but it doesn't have you dialing 911 every time you hear a noise.

Louis called out. Brit and Tracy didn't identify themselves. Instead, they hid behind cubicle walls and slipped out of the office area. I don't see how that behavior doesn't trigger a call to the police.

When I was done writing it, I was less happy with how Jeff came out. I was worried it would be read like some kind of man-hating sapphic diatribe

Jeff came across as an abusive husband who demanded instant compliance from his cringing wife. He didn't give a shit about her; he only cared about appearances - "Can't have the EMT see the noose!"

Although he ended up angrier than I intended, I didn't feel like Jeff came off "unbelievably", as in literally non-believable, so I left his rant largely intact as it came out in the first draft.

There was no prep for Jeff's angry reaction. It was shockingly uncaring.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Isn't your second most popular story largely predicated on a brother groping his little sister repeatedly as a means of helping her regain some self-confidence?

Can't we have some mutually understood suspension of disbelief?

 

[8letters]

Isn't your second most popular story largely predicated on a brother groping his little sister repeatedly as a means of helping her regain some self-confidence?

"Comforting My Little Sister" is actually one of my less popular stories. And I think the groping works within the story's context. I had a doctor offer to pay me if I would write another story with a brother groping his sister's ass.

Can't we have some mutually understood suspension of disbelief?

I thought it worked fine as a Michael Bay-type story where you turn off your brain and enjoy the action. When we got to the premise, it was interesting. The Lesbian readers have given it a fine rating and you've gotten some glowing comments.

I felt that you were probably shooting for higher than that. If not, I'm sorry I was so critical.

One last question if you don't mind - what was the point of spending half of the first scene establishing that light and sound were painful to Tracy? I never saw that it came up again. Later on, I thought it might have meant that Tracy was suffering from a severe hangover; that she'd gotten drunk and then tried to hang herself. But then I thought that the doctors should readily recognize alcohol poisoning.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I can't say I've kept up with Comforting My Sisters rating. I just came away from reading it with the impression that it was doing really well for you.

And yeah, that's fair. The Favor really only works as an nearly-impossible scenario where a head injury creates... like... magical reality for the POV character. I really wanted to write a story where there were more... like... ridiculous hallucinations. "The walls are melting" insanity.

You don't need to be sorry for being critical. I asked for it. I'm really just trying to make sure that criticism being levied isn't unfair. Like if I were to call you out for writing disgusting incest while Violet continues to be my best recieved story.

It's always difficult to read tone in straight text.

I wouldn't say I was shooting higher than that. The Favor has a rating just above my average, but a really high number of views (for me, and compared to my other lesbian pieces and my other one shots). I'm happy with it. Much like What Are Friends For, this is very experimental, and I know that that's not always everyone's cup of tea. I'm proud of it, and the biggest take away so far has been that Jeff came off badly.

The pain Tracy experiences is not caused by light or sound. She's experiencing psychosomatic pain (pain without physical stimulus/source) at seeing Jeff. Her brain is trying to get her away from him, but she's not conscious or aware of the source. She just answers the doctor as best she can under the circumstances.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I'm working on one now where the character has lucid dreams, and those dreams are presented alongside reality until the very end of the story. Like the reader won't be able to distinguish reality from dreams, or even know that the character is dreaming, until the gotcha moment, but there will be signs.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I'm also really glad to hear that it was interesting. I know you primarily move in the incest category, with male/female pairings, so it means a lot that this screwball piece kept your interest.

 

[8letters]

I can't say I've kept up with Comforting My Sisters rating. I just came away from reading it with the impression that it was doing really well for you.

I was disappointed with the response to it at first. I was so disappointed that I walked away from writing for awhile. Not so much with the rating - though I was disappointed to get a merely good rating after having had two stories with great ratings - but that I felt like the commenters didn't get what I was trying to do with the story. For example, the main female character Michelle is flat-chested. It's a major story point. I can't remember a story in I/T that features a flat-chested MFC. I thought I'd get a lot of approving comments on giving some love to flat-chested girls, making Michelle seem sexy even though she was flat chested, etc. Nothing. But "Comforting My Little Sister" gets a high number of comments given its rating, so I must have gotten something over that makes the readers want to comment on it.

And yeah, that's fair. The Favor really only works as an nearly-impossible scenario where a head injury creates... like... magical reality for the POV character. I really wanted to write a story where there were more... like... ridiculous hallucinations. "The walls are melting" insanity.

Personally, I thought the hallucinations were the worst point. I could kind of see Brit driving Tracy around, trying to provoking her into getting back her memory. But when Tracy had a hallucination, I was like "This is serious shit. Take her straight to the hospital. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200."

If you had given me something to believe that hallucinations were harmless, I might not have had that strong reaction.

You don't need to be sorry for being critical. I asked for it. I'm really just trying to make sure that criticism being levied isn't unfair. Like if I were to call you out for writing disgusting incest while Violet continues to be my best recieved story.

Thanks for taking it well.

It's always difficult to read tone in straight text.

It pissed me off when you compared me to Michael Bay so I took the opportunity to toss it back at you. Childish, I know.

I wouldn't say I was shooting higher than that. The Favor has a rating just above my average, but a really high number of views (for me, and compared to my other lesbian pieces and my other one shots). I'm happy with it. Much like What Are Friends For, this is very experimental, and I know that that's not always everyone's cup of tea. I'm proud of it

That's the most important thing.

The pain Tracy experiences is not caused by light or sound. She's experiencing psychosomatic pain (pain without physical stimulus/source) at seeing Jeff. Her brain is trying to get her away from him, but she's not conscious or aware of the source. She just answers the doctor as best she can under the circumstances.

I didn't get that at all.

I don't know if it is a good idea to suggest a different scene than what the author wrote. I think it's best to concentrate on helping authors write better the scenes they write. Given that, perhaps for the ending you could have had Brit and Tracy pull up in front of Tracy's house and it suddenly all comes back to Tracy - Jeff is having an affair. He's pretty open about it now and it's getting ugly. She's been trying to save her marriage and failing. Tracy blames herself because she's not that interested in having sex with Jeff. She remembers making the noose, hanging it over the rafters, then before she can put her head through it she stumbles and falls. She suspects her mental problems are related to the emotional pain Jeff's affair has inflicted on her. Tracy then pulls out her phone, calls Jeff, tells him they're getting a divorce, then says to Britt, "Let's go to your place."

I'm working on one now where the character has lucid dreams, and those dreams are presented alongside reality until the very end of the story. Like the reader won't be able to distinguish reality from dreams, or even know that the character is dreaming, until the gotcha moment, but there will be signs.

Probably not my cup of tea. I don't know if this is related, but I always hate it when an incest story has the male main character (it's always the MMC) have sex with the FMC and then he wakes up and sadly realizes that it was all a dream. Incestuous sex without the other consenting to it is just Tab A being inserted into Slot B.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I was disappointed with the response to it at first. I was so disappointed that I walked away from writing for awhile. Not so much with the rating - though I was disappointed to get a merely good rating after having had two stories with great ratings - but that I felt like the commenters didn't get what I was trying to do with the story. For example, the main female character Michelle is flat-chested. It's a major story point. I can't remember a story in I/T that features a flat-chested MFC. I thought I'd get a lot of approving comments on giving some love to flat-chested girls, making Michelle seem sexy even though she was flat chested, etc. Nothing. But "Comforting My Little Sister" gets a high number of comments given its rating, so I must have gotten something over that makes the readers want to comment on it.

For what it's worth, I thought Michelle was really sexy.

Personally, I thought the hallucinations were the worst point. I could kind of see Brit driving Tracy around, trying to provoking her into getting back her memory. But when Tracy had a hallucination, I was like "This is serious shit. Take her straight to the hospital. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200."

If you had given me something to believe that hallucinations were harmless, I might not have had that strong reaction.

I probably relied too hard on Brit trying to simply make it through the day so that she could be out from under a debt she felt obligated to fulfill.

It pissed me off when you compared me to Michael Bay so I took the opportunity to toss it back at you. Childish, I know.

What I really meant, and we're well out of context now so bear with me, was that the advice you were giving felt predicated purely on achieving success, and it reminded me of an interview he gave where he brushed off a stylistic criticism and replied that the film in question had made hundreds of millions of dollars, on it's way toward a billion.

And while all the fancy, darling techniques are theoretically awesome, at a certain point you have to respect butts in seats and dollars in the bottom line.

You got 55k views in a day. I have 1 chapter of one story in three years that has ACCUMULATED more thsn that. I have two chapters with under 2k views.

Jealousy is childish too.

I don't know if it is a good idea to suggest a different scene than what the author wrote. I think it's best to concentrate on helping authors write better the scenes they write. Given that, perhaps for the ending you could have had Brit and Tracy pull up in front of Tracy's house and it suddenly all comes back to Tracy - Jeff is having an affair. He's pretty open about it now and it's getting ugly. She's been trying to save her marriage and failing. Tracy blames herself because she's not that interested in having sex with Jeff. She remembers making the noose, hanging it over the rafters, then before she can put her head through it she stumbles and falls. She suspects her mental problems are related to the emotional pain Jeff's affair has inflicted on her. Tracy then pulls out her phone, calls Jeff, tells him they're getting a divorce, then says to Britt, "Let's go to your place."

These are good notes. This might have been a stronger ending.

Probably not my cup of tea. I don't know if this is related, but I always hate it when an incest story has the male main character (it's always the MMC) have sex with the FMC and then he wakes up and sadly realizes that it was all a dream. Incestuous sex without the other consenting to it is just Tab A being inserted into Slot B.

It's a deeper twist than that. I'm not sure I can pull it off, but I'm still gonna try.

 

[rutger5]

It was an interesting premise, only you can decide how successful it was for what you were aiming for. Can't say that I liked or disliked it as a whole. I'm certainly not an expert on the different types of amnesia and how they work but I know the human mind can do strange things when under stress or when it breaks. Now whether Tracy's actions would be consistent with these factors I'm not sure but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt. (I know there have been cases where after someone suffered a head injury they acted bizarre, heard of a case where they started talking with an accent and there have been cases where behavior changed completely, going from happily married to acting totally promiscuous for example.)

It's the other peoples actions I take issue with though you are the writer so you get to pull their strings. If I was Brit and Tracy started hallucinating after having suffered some type of head injury and having amnesia I have to admit I wouldn't have acted the way she did, quite the opposite.

An aside, and I'm not trying to rewrite your story but since Tracy and Brit had grown apart and Brit had no hope of getting with her it might have been interesting if when she brought Tracy home she had a girlfriend there and how that dynamic would have played out. Don't mean anything sexual like guy fantasy but rather Brit was a babe and there would be no point in pining hopelessly for an impossible dream so she would have moved on. Of course that would have been more a Peyton Place thing than the more psychological so wouldn't fit into story but in some stories could lead to interesting dilemma for Brit.

As far as Jeff - you made him a total douche, especially since Tracy admitted he did nothing wrong (except having the wrong chromosomes). When first reading his reaction I suspected he was abusive (not necessarily physically) but then we find out he wasn't. I know sometimes when my wife does something foolish I get worried with annoyance mixed in but after what happened with Tracy my first reaction would be relief she was okay. Then maybe if he tried to hug her and she had been like "Don't touch me" or something the anger would have shown itself. Also can't understand why someone would try to hide suicide attempt. Except for maybe some really repressed wasp types where appearance is everything it doesn't make sense.

Btw if Jeff was real person I believe he would become embittered LW reader.

And just a note to 8letters, since you guys managed to weave in a discussion of the story in his sig into this thread. I'm guessing if 8letters was reading the comforting sis story rather than writing it he wouldn't have liked/or finished it. Because by my reading you most certainly didn't describe the sister in the first scene and that violates one of your dictums.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Also can't understand why someone would try to hide suicide attempt. Except for maybe some really repressed wasp types where appearance is everything it doesn't make sense.

Plenty of reasons.

Mental illness is stigmatised well beyond repressed WASPs, and suicide in particular attracts a lot of stigma. It pretty much inevitably gets interpreted as a cowardly and selfish act, regardless of the actual circumstances. For example, see some of the comments on the Authors' Hangout thread about Robin Williams' death. The actual context, which came out some time later, is pretty horrible.

Suicide is often also treated as an indictment of the victim's loved ones - obviously they weren't supportive enough, yada yada. It's pretty horrible for kids to feel like they didn't matter enough to stop their parent from attempting suicide.

More tangibly:

A suicide attempt leading to hospitalisation is pretty much guaranteed to result in a spell of involuntary psychiatric committal. Being locked up in a psych ward is pretty intimidating for anybody, but more so for racial minorities who tend to receive poorer mental health care. While the story doesn't explicitly state Tracy's race, there are hints that she's non-white, most likely African-American.

Some US insurance companies attempt to deny coverage of healthcare costs related to suicide attempts. It also becomes evidence of a pre-existing condition that can screw you if you need to get coverage in the future.

So, yeah, a lot of rational reasons to conceal a suicide attempt, even before getting to the irrational "holy shit my wife tried to kill herself this is bad how do I make it less bad" stuff.

 

[8letters]

And just a note to 8letters, since you guys managed to weave in a discussion of the story in his sig into this thread. I'm guessing if 8letters was reading the comforting sis story rather than writing it he wouldn't have liked/or finished it. Because by my reading you most certainly didn't describe the sister in the first scene and that violates one of your dictums.

It's a general rule and a good author knows when to disregard general rules. If I had written "The Favor", I probably wouldn't have had any physical description when we first meet Brit. Why? Because Tracy is focused on getting away and the attraction Brit has for her is long-time friendship. Then when they got to the beach, I would have a had a long description of Brit, perhaps broken up. At the end, Tracy would have wondered, "Had I always found Brit this physically attractive? I don't remember." That would have been the first hint that Tracy's lost of memory was effecting her sexual orientation.

As for my story, the first scene is in the dark so the physical description is limited to what Christopher can feel. Christopher is not thinking of her romantically, so he's not thinking about how she looks. Also, a major plot point is when Michelle says, "But I've got no tits! I'm flat as a board!" To have described Michelle as flat-chested before that would have ruined that moment.

Now, the story that AwkwardMD and I argued about this on is "What Are Friends For". In that story, the physical description gets dribbled out tangentially - "Quinn ran a few fingers over her temple to gather some stray blonde bangs." There wasn't any reason that I saw for not giving us a physical description up front.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Plenty of reasons.

Mental illness is stigmatised well beyond repressed WASPs, and suicide in particular attracts a lot of stigma. It pretty much inevitably gets interpreted as a cowardly and selfish act, regardless of the actual circumstances. For example, see some of the comments on the Authors' Hangout thread about Robin Williams' death. The actual context, which came out some time later, is pretty horrible.

Suicide is often also treated as an indictment of the victim's loved ones - obviously they weren't supportive enough, yada yada. It's pretty horrible for kids to feel like they didn't matter enough to stop their parent from attempting suicide.

More tangibly:

A suicide attempt leading to hospitalisation is pretty much guaranteed to result in a spell of involuntary psychiatric committal. Being locked up in a psych ward is pretty intimidating for anybody, but more so for racial minorities who tend to receive poorer mental health care. While the story doesn't explicitly state Tracy's race, there are hints that she's non-white, most likely African-American.

Some US insurance companies attempt to deny coverage of healthcare costs related to suicide attempts. It also becomes evidence of a pre-existing condition that can screw you if you need to get coverage in the future.

So, yeah, a lot of rational reasons to conceal a suicide attempt, even before getting to the irrational "holy shit my wife tried to kill herself this is bad how do I make it less bad" stuff.

Pretty much all of this. I wouldn't have been able to explain this argument as rationally as Bramblethorn did (thank you for that). In my head, as I was writing it, the biggest factor for Jeff was the stigma. An extended stay in a psych ward is not an easy thing to hide from friends, family, and co-workers, assuming she survived, and he thought that hiding it is what Tracy would have wanted.

Bear in mind that "What she would have wanted", with a significant other, is often a fuzzy thing gleaned from conversations about other things that are tangential to the subject. They watch a movie together in which a character commits suicide, and Tracy says "Oh the poor kids" during a wrenching scene. That kind of thing sticks with you. That's what comes to mind when you find someone you love on the ground in a pool of their own blood.

Also bear in mind he had about 5 minutes to think this through between finding her on the floor and the EMT's arriving. 5 minutes seems like a long time, but it goes by in a heartbeat when there's a lot of blood on the floor. I bet every single post in this thread (with maybe one or two exceptions) took more than 5 minutes to type, and we all sat in comfy chairs while we did it.

Again, I appreciate all of this. On both sides. I, in the most literal sense possible, really just want to keep improving, and that means agonizing over ever more minute details the further you get. Agonizing over character motivations and unwritten backstory. All of this helps.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Now, the story that AwkwardMD and I argued about this on is "What Are Friends For". In that story, the physical description gets dribbled out tangentially - "Quinn ran a few fingers over her temple to gather some stray blonde bangs." There wasn't any reason that I saw for not giving us a physical description up front.

In What Are Friends For, the characters don't have sex. They're not engaging each other, and at no point are they actively appraising each other as potential sexual partners. Masturbation occurs in the middle of it, but it's borne of sexual empowerment and self-confidence. Trish is taking great pains to not objectify her friend, and I tried to reflect that in the narrative for better or worse.

That was why I made the conscious decision to avoid it then. I understand that there's such a thing as taking a concept too far, and maybe What Are Friends For is too far, but it's hard to find that line without trying to go past it.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Also yes. Tracy is African-American. In case anyone was confused.

 

[rutger5]

No disrespect intended, but I understand that both suicide and mental illness have stigma attached. But on coming home and finding your wife bloody, unconscious, and with a noose hanging from the rafters I think most people would be in shock, especially since we're to assume he had no inkling of what state of mind led her to this point.

Most wouldn't be worrying at that point Gee if they think she was attempting suicide then insurance won't pay or they'll blame me for not seeing the signs. Unless you are the most cold, calculating type of person you would be freaking out and after calling 911 you might be trying to attend to your wife or pacing frantically or something while waiting for ambulance. Maybe if he was real ocd in regards to order I could possibly see him removing the noose or more likely starting to clean the blood as a way to settle himself. Maybe some will disagree and not all see things the same way but it would be only later that trying to cover up what happened would make sense to me. Now if she had succeeded in killing herself and time wasn't a factor I could see him trying to hide that fact to spare their daughters from the pain of dealing with it but in the few frantic minutes from finding her til when help arrived I still find that not to be normal behavior for most people (though I concede minds work differently but its not normal).

And maybe he thought she'd want to hide it but still find unlikely that thought would have occurred instantaneously to him, sure later at hospital it might. Also in case where someone attempts suicide in most cases they do need help (might not get proper help anyway) and if you love them then you do what's best despite their wishes (implicit or explicit) or any stigma family will suffer and I speak from experience here.

Now though the story touches on suicide, mental illness, being true to who one is, and the like it is a work of fiction written so you could try using a certain technique and on that you did fine. You write well, my points were more about what I felt were not credible reactions of some characters to the situation you put them in, not Tracy, I had no issues with her actions.

Of course with my two finger typing method just about every post I write will take me more than five minutes even if it requires no thinking.

AwkwardMD, I apologize for again addressing 8letters in your thread but since the precedent has already been set and he responded to my post I wished to reply. Below is what you wrote in another thread 8letters:

The most popular advice I've seen on the AH for sex scenes is to describe the scene well enough that the reader feels that they are in the room.

Edit: If the writer can't get me in the room in the first scene, I don't have much faith they can get me in the room in a sex scene. And I'm not in the room in the first scene if I don't know what the characters look like.

I agree that a writer should disregard a general rule when it makes sense and I think one should be flexible and maybe I'm tweaking you a bit. But that's because you come off as so dogmatic like you did with your words above when it isn't always cut and dried. I don't think you did anything wrong by not describing the sister in the initial scene of your story, if you're wrong it's how when you're discussing other stories you act like others are wrong for not doing so. Listen you like what you do and if someone wished to write a story that 8letters would like then by all means give an accurate, detailed description of the characters (and have incest, plenty of incest).

 

[AwkwardMD]

There's no question that Tracy needs help, but it's a brash overstatement to assume that everyone who needs help gets it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

No disrespect intended, but I understand that both suicide and mental illness have stigma attached. But on coming home and finding your wife bloody, unconscious, and with a noose hanging from the rafters I think most people would be in shock, especially since we're to assume he had no inkling of what state of mind led her to this point.

Most wouldn't be worrying at that point Gee if they think she was attempting suicide then insurance won't pay or they'll blame me for not seeing the signs. Unless you are the most cold, calculating type of person you would be freaking out and after calling 911 you might be trying to attend to your wife or pacing frantically or something while waiting for ambulance.

I agree that most people would be in shock. But people respond to that in all sorts of ways. Some people freeze up, others need to feel like they're doing something about the situation:

I want to make this go away - I heard you're not supposed to touch somebody with a head injury because that can make it worse - if I can't touch her, what CAN I do? - fuck, that noose looks horrible, hanging there - well, if I can't do anything else, I can take that down.

Or they're primed by past experience:

Fuck, she tried to kill herself - she must have been sick - oh god, this reminds me of when my sister tripped and broke her knee, and the insurance refused to cover because they found a pre-existing condition, and it wrecked her life - gotta hide the evidence.

Or by other priorities - the kids are due home, and he can't get past how awful it would be for them to see a noose and know their mother tried to kill themselves.

For what it's worth...

I've had three family members make credible suicide threats at one time or another. One of them stormed out of the house and didn't come back, and the next day we realised he'd left his phone and wallet behind, which was pretty scary. We freaked out, and I called the cops, but I was still thinking through the angles - how much do I trust police to deal with a mental health crisis? Could this report end up creating a record that's going to come back to bite him later on? How do my partner and I balance our own safety and well-being with that of somebody we love, who refuses to get treatment for a serious mood disorder? Do we need to evict him from our house, knowing that there's potential for that to trigger self-harm or violence against us? etc. etc.

(About the one thing I didn't think about on that occasion was financial/insurance angles, but that's a "not living in America" thing.)

Am I a calculating person? Sure. I over-think everything; it's how I cope with scary stuff, it's what I do for a living, it's who I am.

Does that make me cold? Eh, I don't think so, but I'm not going to spend my Sunday morning trying to prove my humanity to this corner of the internet

(FWIW, that situation worked out OK, and things with that person are a lot better now.)