Some poly, some kink, some other stuff ...

[SimpleGifts]

It's a public forum - I'm being polite

You're always so ladylike.

SG

 

[IslandStyle_44]

It's a public forum - I'm being polite

*grins* Have you mellowed?

 

[KimGordon67]

Not even slightly.

*grins* Have you mellowed?

 

[KimGordon67]

Another thing happened that I've been really trying to work out how to articulate ... around this time I went on an overseas holiday with my family. For reasons that I couldn't work out at the time, I was a total bitch of a lot of the time we were away ... just grumpy and with a foul temper. (OK, I do have a temper at the best of time, but not usually for a week at a time, and not usually when I'm on holiday.)

Looking back now, I think it was an indication that I was struggling a bit with the situation I'd found myself. I didn't feel guilty - I'd always been able to rationalise things with the 'no physical contact means it's OK' argument, and I still believe that. But this was the first time I'd felt this level of emotional connection with someone else, and I think I was trying to reconcile that with the fact that I was still totally committed to my marriage, and totally loved my husband ... and I guess, in part, why that didn't make me feel guilty. Somehow the whole concept of polyamory never crossed my mind at that point - had it, I might have found things easier to deal with, and also might have talked to my husband about what was going on at that point. I suspect I was trying to minimise the significance of the other thing too ... which, in retrospect, was a bit silly.

There's a myriad things I could mention to evidence that, but probably the most obvious one is the time, a couple of months later (I think) that TG was travelling for work, and we were in roughly similar time zones. I have another 'home' that I use half the week because I work in another town, so obviously I have a fair bit of time to myself ... and in this particular instance, the usually long phone calls we had went through a whole night - like, literally eight hours on the phone. You know, that moment when you realise that it's getting light and you still haven't actually gone to sleep. Obviously there was a lot of sex, but even I can't have sex solidly for eight hours (well, not usually anyway).

The holiday was still fun - I wasn't actually a bitch the entire time, and we did all enjoy ourselves, but I still feel bad about it not being as good as it could have been. I wish I'd worked some things out about myself a while earlier - mostly the fact that at this point in my life, I really seem to thrive in the context of more than one actual relationship.

So a couple of things that happened in the first couple of months of the ‘thing’ with TG. The first of these involves a slightly embarrassing confession. When we first started talking, I had a fairly old phone – I used to refer to as my ‘slightly-above-average-intelligence phone’, because it really wasn’t that smart, and it had stopped really functioning at full capacity. One day a deal site had reconditioned iPhones on offer, and I sent TG a link, asking if they were any good. (He works in tech, and I’m pretty ill-informed about i-anything.) He came back saying it was silly me paying that much, and he would just send me one, because they were so much cheaper in the US. Obviously I just laughed and told him to not be ridiculous … except he was actually deadly serious. Much debate ensued, and finally he convinced me to accept an old one he had with a broken screen … yes, I know how this looks, but I figured he was just going to throw it away anyway, whereas I’d get it fixed and actually use it so, you know, environmentally sound and everything. I still have the exchange somewhere, him saying 'So basically you're saying you want me to send you this broken outdated phone instead of a nice new one?' and me saying 'Exactly' and him saying 'Are you actually insane?'
Then, of course, he had to get it to me. We were still very much in the anonymous phase … we did manage to get around one aspect of that because I was about to travel, so he could have it shipped to a hotel … but I did have to grit my teeth and give him my actual name. And it turns out giving someone your old iPhone isn’t a simple thing … there were accounts to disconnect and reconnect, and calls to Customs and various other things … but finally it all got sorted, and the mysterious package arrived at my hotel containing one broken iPhone … and, of course, new underwear. The next email contained a lovely description of him choosing them, thinking about what he thought I’d like, and how happy it made him knowing I’d be wearing something that he’d held, even if only briefly. That was pretty cute … and then that afternoon I’d been in the hotel reception for some reason and was just heading back up the stairs when a delivery guy walked in holding an enormous bunch of flowers. Something made me stop, and sure enough he said ‘These are for a guest … Kim Gordon?’ (except my actual name obviously) … and again followed up by an email describing how he’d emailed with a local florist, choosing flowers that he hoped I’d like.
Yes, I get that reading back now it all seems a little stalky, but that’s not even slightly how it felt at the time – and that was the beginning and the end of him ever sending me anything. I’m not sure what the moral of this little sub-story is … I guess there isn’t one.

 

[SilverBass]

Oh no, I'm right there with you!! People in unhappy marriages have made their own bed and are too scared to get out of it. I don't understand how they can choose unhappiness just because of finances or family, etc. You only get one life and you are responsible for that one life first - a life lived in fear is a life half lived.

And, I don't understand the hundreds of thousands who decide to stay unhappy in a sexless marriage because they 'love their spouse'. They believe their marriage is perfect in every other way and are willing to live with that little unhappiness. What they don't realise is, that little unhappiness is actually a big deal and will eat at their souls every day until one day they can't change their life anymore... it's too late (or so they'll think). They use the excuse that they love their spouse and don't want to break up a perfectly good marriage to do nothing about their unhappiness. If they realise they are unhappy and do nothing about it, then they choose their unhappiness. Unfortunately, many people would rather be unhappy than alone.

I'm really enjoying this thread and will wait until I finish it before responding to the awesome OP. However I just had to stop and comment on this one as it is the first post so far that really stuck out to me as being very naïve.

First off, because the sex is not good, or even not there at all, does not mean that the person doing without is either unhappy, or living in fear. I don't expect to have everything in life. What if the one thing you were missing was money? Or health? Or you had great sex but terrible dialogue? What if you have fantastic friendship and companionship but just no sex, even though you wish you could? What if for health or physical reasons your partner was unable to have sex?

And sometimes people just are unhappy in a marriage but stay for valid reasons. I would never EVER judge another person or couple for staying together for whatever reasons they choose. Unless you are actually IN that marriage, you just do not know all that is involved. There are just too many variables in every relationship for anyone on the outside to make a judgement. Maybe if it is your best friend and you do know all of these aspects, or there is actual danger and abuse going on, maybe then there is some justification for an opinion on someone else's relationship, but otherwise, no.

Anyway, I could go on, but I just wanted to point our that this was about the most clueless and judgmental post I have seen on this forum since I joined. Sorry, I'm really not a grump, but had to speak out on something I could not disagree more with.

 

[KimGordon67]

I'm on a phone so can't respond at length, but without waiting to speak for RW, i do think she meant unhappy in a broader sense, not 'just' because of a lack of sex - although sometimes that is an overwhelming issue for some people. I agree that everyone makes choices and that we shouldn't necessarily judge those choices, but RW's comment was really about people who choose to stay in marriages in which they're unhappy AND then be bitter about it - especially when the reasons they give for staying seem relatively inconsequential in the greater scheme of things. For example, I have a friend who stayed in a marriage he no longer liked simply because he didn't want to backslide financially. He earns well, there are no children - he actually would be fine - just not as well off as he is now. So he's miserable and he's making his wife miserable for the sake of financial security. Personally, I think he's also afraid of being alone. I don't get either of those things AND he's making someone else unhappy in the process.

QUOTE=SilverBass;85386275]I'm really enjoying this thread and will wait until I finish it before responding to the awesome OP. However I just had to stop and comment on this one as it is the first post so far that really stuck out to me as being very naïve.

First off, because the sex is not good, or even not there at all, does not mean that the person doing without is either unhappy, or living in fear. I don't expect to have everything in life. What if the one thing you were missing was money? Or health? Or you had great sex but terrible dialogue? What if you have fantastic friendship and companionship but just no sex, even though you wish you could? What if for health or physical reasons your partner was unable to have sex?

And sometimes people just are unhappy in a marriage but stay for valid reasons. I would never EVER judge another person or couple for staying together for whatever reasons they choose. Unless you are actually IN that marriage, you just do not know all that is involved. There are just too many variables in every relationship for anyone on the outside to make a judgement. Maybe if it is your best friend and you do know all of these aspects, or there is actual danger and abuse going on, maybe then there is some justification for an opinion on someone else's relationship, but otherwise, no.

Anyway, I could go on, but I just wanted to point our that this was about the most clueless and judgmental post I have seen on this forum since I joined. Sorry, I'm really not a grump, but had to speak out on something I could not disagree more with.[/QUOTE]

 

[KimGordon67]

Oh - and I'm really not awesome. I make pretty good chocolate chip cookies but other than that am really pretty average

I'm really enjoying this thread and will wait until I finish it before responding to the awesome OP. However I just had to stop and comment on this one as it is the first post so far that really stuck out to me as being very naïve.

First off, because the sex is not good, or even not there at all, does not mean that the person doing without is either unhappy, or living in fear. I don't expect to have everything in life. What if the one thing you were missing was money? Or health? Or you had great sex but terrible dialogue? What if you have fantastic friendship and companionship but just no sex, even though you wish you could? What if for health or physical reasons your partner was unable to have sex?

And sometimes people just are unhappy in a marriage but stay for valid reasons. I would never EVER judge another person or couple for staying together for whatever reasons they choose. Unless you are actually IN that marriage, you just do not know all that is involved. There are just too many variables in every relationship for anyone on the outside to make a judgement. Maybe if it is your best friend and you do know all of these aspects, or there is actual danger and abuse going on, maybe then there is some justification for an opinion on someone else's relationship, but otherwise, no.

Anyway, I could go on, but I just wanted to point our that this was about the most clueless and judgmental post I have seen on this forum since I joined. Sorry, I'm really not a grump, but had to speak out on something I could not disagree more with.

 

[SilverBass]

I'm on a phone so can't respond at length, but without waiting to speak for RW, i do think she meant unhappy in a broader sense, not 'just' because of a lack of sex - although sometimes that is an overwhelming issue for some people. I agree that everyone makes choices and that we shouldn't necessarily judge those choices, but RW's comment was really about people who choose to stay in marriages in which they're unhappy AND then be bitter about it - especially when the reasons they give for staying seem relatively inconsequential in the greater scheme of things. For example, I have a friend who stayed in a marriage he no longer liked simply because he didn't want to backslide financially. He earns well, there are no children - he actually would be fine - just not as well off as he is now. So he's miserable and he's making his wife miserable for the sake of financial security. Personally, I think he's also afraid of being alone. I don't get either of those things AND he's making someone else unhappy in the process.

Thanks for responding! I know how tough it is trying to navigate that tiny keyboard on our phones. But sometimes I'm away too and I see something I just HAVE to respond to, so squinting and thumb-typing I will go. Really looking forward to responding to your experiences with some of my own stories and thoughts!

OK, regarding the above. I have always been under the impression that in most cases, at least of those involving people of a sound mind, know what is best for themselves. Granted, this may not extend to their partner/spouse, but if your married friend is financially well off on his own, but not AS well of as if he stays married, and if that is one of the criteria he uses to assess the reasons why he stays in his marriage, then what is wrong with that? Like I said, there are many variables. If someone talks about being unhappy in a marriage but is staying for whatever reason (money, kids, afraid of being alone, love of partner) against a list of all the reasons why the marriage is bad, then it sounds to me like the pros outweigh the cons. Is it still a bad marriage then, or is the person in question just focusing on the negative aspects? And each partner is responsible for their side of this. If he is making his wife miserable then she has her own set of circumstances to deal with.

Your friend no longer likes his marriage. But he stays because part of that marriage consists of a higher standard of living. Well, that standard of living is part of the marriage. What if someone only stays because he has a hot wife? What if someone only stays because they share little kids? What if someone stays only because his/her partner allows him or her to be intimate with others? Add it all up, and if someone chooses to stay in what he or she decides is a bad marriage, then still, despite the shortcomings, there are more reasons to stay than there are reasons to leave. Really, I think the toughest one to deal with, a lot harder than kids or sex issues, is literally not being able to afford even a modest home if parting. When one partner exerts financial control, and literally does control all the assets (possibly including a prenup), and if the financially dependent partner cannot sustain him or herself away without living in the streets, that is a real tough one.

Now granted, I hear you and RW about complainers. But sometimes people just complain too much. How often is complaining just a part of their personality style, and even if put into a better scenario/relationship/job that person will STILL find plenty to complain about. Then there is always just learning to make the best of a given situation.

With all of that said, all that I am trying to say here is that we cannot judge someone else's relationship, and even if we are hearing their gripes, it needs to be taken into consideration not only the other side, but what the one side we ARE hearing is leaving out. It all boils down to, you know what is best for you, and at least for right now you are making the best choice, as you see it, for yourself. The person in that other relationship over there is making the best decision for him/herself. Let's not think we know best or that someone isn't moving because of fear or whatever. Granted, situations where someone has lost his grip like drug and alcohol abuse, or actual physical or emotional abuse and someone literally doesn't have the strength or fortitude to do anything, that is quite different. But for this rant I am talking about people that have a reasonable amount of self control to make their own best decisions by considering all the variables involved.

 

[SilverBass]

Oh - and I'm really not awesome. I make pretty good chocolate chip cookies but other than that am really pretty average

I'll have to disagree with you on that! You have created quite the interesting and thought provoking thread here. I didn't even discover it myself, someone else pointed it out to me as being a great read. And it is. If someone can use their intellect and wit and experiences to share with others in a way to help them relate or cope with their own similar experiences, as you have done, then yes, you qualify for awesomeness! I'm looking forward to continuing and then I'll write more, but don't worry, it won't be debating like my last gripe.

So yes, you can bake up as good a thread as you bake up those CC cookies!

 

[KimGordon67]

I agree with all this BUT I think if you decide to stay in a situation that you're fundamentally dissatisfied with, you owe it to yourself and the others involved to be content with that decision. Also, I seriously think it's sad that people do often base that decision on fear of the unknown or of being alone. I have a lot of friends who have divorced after years of misery and almost all have said they wish they'd been brave enough to do it sooner. Most never actually did complain while married, but it's been almost heart breaking to see how much more joy they have in their lives now, and think that they missed out on years of that because it seemed 'too hard ' to do anything about it. And in most instances, their respective ex partners are also much happier now, as are their children.

Thanks for responding! I know how tough it is trying to navigate that tiny keyboard on our phones. But sometimes I'm away too and I see something I just HAVE to respond to, so squinting and thumb-typing I will go. Really looking forward to responding to your experiences with some of my own stories and thoughts!

OK, regarding the above. I have always been under the impression that in most cases, at least of those involving people of a sound mind, know what is best for themselves. Granted, this may not extend to their partner/spouse, but if your married friend is financially well off on his own, but not AS well of as if he stays married, and if that is one of the criteria he uses to assess the reasons why he stays in his marriage, then what is wrong with that? Like I said, there are many variables. If someone talks about being unhappy in a marriage but is staying for whatever reason (money, kids, afraid of being alone, love of partner) against a list of all the reasons why the marriage is bad, then it sounds to me like the pros outweigh the cons. And each partner is responsible for their side of this. If he is making his wife miserable then she has her own set of circumstances to deal with.

Your friend no longer likes his marriage. But he stays because part of that marriage consists of a higher standard of living. Well, that standard of living is part of the marriage. What if someone only stays because he has a hot wife? What if someone only stays because they share little kids? What if someone stays only because his/her partner allows him or her to be intimate with others? Add it all up, and if someone chooses to stay in what he or she decides is a bad marriage, then still, despite the shortcomings, there are more pros than cons. Really, I think the toughest one to deal with, a lot harder than kids or sex issues, is literally not being able to afford even a modest home if parting. When one partner exerts financial control, and literally does control all the assets (possibly including a prenup), and if the financially dependent partner cannot sustain him or herself away without living in the streets, that is a real tough one.

Now granted, I hear you and RW about complainers. But sometimes people just complain too much. How often is complaining just a part of their personality style, and even if put into a better scenario/relationship/job that person will STILL find plenty to complain about. Then there is always just learning to make the best of a given situation.

With all of that said, all that I am trying to say here is that we cannot judge someone else's relationship, and even if we are hearing their gripes, it needs to be taken into consideration not only the other side, but what the one side we ARE hearing is leaving out. It all boils down to, you know what is best for you, and at least for right now you are making the best choice, as you see it, for yourself. The person in that other relationship over there is making the best decision for him/herself. Let's not think we know best or that someone isn't moving because of fear or whatever. Granted, situations where someone has lost his grip like drug and alcohol abuse, or actual physical or emotional abuse and someone literally doesn't have the strength or fortitude to do anything, that is quite different. But for this rant I am talking about people that have a reasonable amount of self control to make their own best decisions by considering all the variables involved.

 

[KimGordon67]

Well now I'm just blushing.

I'll have to disagree with you on that! You have created quite the interesting and thought provoking thread here. I didn't even discover it myself, someone else pointed it out to me as being a great read. And it is. If someone can use their intellect and wit and experiences to share with others in a way to help them relate or cope with their own similar experiences, as you have done, then yes, you qualify for awesomeness! I'm looking forward to continuing and then I'll write more, but don't worry, it won't be debating like my last gripe.

So yes, you can bake up as good a thread as you bake up those CC cookies!

 

[SilverBass]

I agree with all this BUT I think if you decide to stay in a situation that you're fundamentally dissatisfied with, you owe it to yourself and the others involved to be content with that decision. Also, I seriously think it's sad that people do often base that decision on fear of the unknown or of being alone. I have a lot of friends who have divorced after years of misery and almost all have said they wish they'd been brave enough to do it sooner. Most never actually did complain while married, but it's been almost heart breaking to see how much more joy they have in their lives now, and think that they missed out on years of that because it seemed 'too hard ' to do anything about it. And in most instances, their respective ex partners are also much happier now, as are their children.

That is great when people move on and become happier, and certainly we can all say we wish we had done xxx sooner once we find happiness down the road (works with jobs too). Also works the other way when some have wished they had tried harder in a previous marriage. BUT, I'm not even really talking about that. The point I was trying to make, and not saying I was doing it all that great, though at least trying, is that we should not make general statements regarding others and why they should or should not split, such as the contributor did in the first post I quoted.

 

[Iamsubmissive]

That is great when people move on and become happier, and certainly we can all say we wish we had done xxx sooner once we find happiness down the road (works with jobs too). Also works the other way when some have wished they had tried harder in a previous marriage. BUT, I'm not even really talking about that. The point I was trying to make, and not saying I was doing it all that great, though at least trying, is that we should not make general statements regarding others and why they should or should not split, such as the contributor did in the first post I quoted.

I'm gonna have to agree with SB here. Usually, people who split up only need one or two good reasons to call it quits..."he cheated on me, I'm done"..."she never wants sex anymore, I can't live like this" ..."all we do is fight, I deserve better". It's easy to walk away IF the reason for leaving is the only thing that matters to you. But people who stay in a somewhat unhappy relationship usually have several, or a lot, of reasons to stay. Maybe it's money. Maybe it's kids. Maybe it's a lack of better options as they see it. Doesn't matter if we, or anyone else, thinks they're stupid reasons...to the person making that choice, those are good and valid reasons. And just because they chose the lesser of two evils doesn't mean they have to be happy about it. Sure, they did what they felt was right for them for the time being, but they're still in a crappy situation. They aren't "choosing" to be unhappy if leaving might put them in a worse situation. It just is what it is until something changes...things improve in the relationship, or the option to leave has better possibilities. Life is never as simple as we'd like it to be.

 

[SilverBass]

I'm gonna have to agree with SB here. Usually, people who split up only need one or two good reasons to call it quits..."he cheated on me, I'm done"..."she never wants sex anymore, I can't live like this" ..."all we do is fight, I deserve better". It's easy to walk away IF the reason for leaving is the only thing that matters to you. But people who stay in a somewhat unhappy relationship usually have several, or a lot, of reasons to stay. Maybe it's money. Maybe it's kids. Maybe it's a lack of better options as they see it. Doesn't matter if we, or anyone else, thinks they're stupid reasons...to the person making that choice, those are good and valid reasons. And just because they chose the lesser of two evils doesn't mean they have to be happy about it. Sure, they did what they felt was right for them for the time being, but they're still in a crappy situation. They aren't "choosing" to be unhappy if leaving might put them in a worse situation. It just is what it is until something changes...things improve in the relationship, or the option to leave has better possibilities. Life is never as simple as we'd like it to be.

VERY well put. Thank you. A lot smoother than the way I was trying to say it.

 

[pplwatching]

.....

 

[KimGordon67]

I suspect that part of the problem here is that we're comparing oranges and mandarins, and maybe lemons as well.' The unhappy marriage ' is not a monolithic thing - it has a whole range of shapes and forms. I totally agree that 'choice' is also a slippery concept. But I do think in this particular context a lot of people have a lot more choice than they allow themselves. I sometimes have people say to me 'I wish I could that' in respect of a particular decision I've made, e.g. To not be monogamous. Usually there's no actual reason they couldn't go through the same sort of process I went through to get there. Results might not be the same for them, but I had no idea what my outcome would be until I tried. So it's not that they can't do it - it's that they're not prepared to take the risk that's involved. I really try to never say 'I wish I could do that' - if there's something I want to do I either do whatever I can to make it happen, or I decide it's not worth the risk (or maybe not possible) and I accept that and move on. Life is too short to live in constant dissatisfaction. Yes, often these decisions are beyond my control because of things like financial constraints, but being unhappy about that is unlikely to change the situation.

VERY well put. Thank you. A lot smoother than the way I was trying to say it.

 

[Iamsubmissive]

.........

I totally agree with all you've said. And many times the lack of interest in sex has nothing to do with that person's 'feelings' toward their partner. There are many factors that affect sex drive. All of the reasons you listed to stay are VERY GOOD reasons. When that's how you feel, there really isn't a 'choice'. If, for some reason, I was on the lack of interest side...I would hate to think that my partner would give up on us so easily after everything we meant to each other...

 

[pplwatching]

.....

 

[Iamsubmissive]

Sometimes...sometimes not. I do agree that if someone does have better options that will help lead them to a happier and more fulfilling life, then fear of taking that step isn't a good excuse. In that case, if they choose to 'do nothing' and stay in their current situation, they should accept the choice they made and make the best of what they have.

 

[SilverBass]

As someone who's generally very risk averse with respect to my marriage, I agree with this but even when i occasionally muse 'wouldn't it be nice if ...' I am still usually thinking about my big picture goals. Sometimes whatever i might want to do doesnt fit the big picture, so I dont.

Yes, sometimes when you "don't", that is just the sacrifice that is made. We make sacrifices all the time. For some people food is a real passion, but due to weight issues or health problems they need to go on a strict diet and cannot indulge in something that was REAL important to their lives. That person sacrifices his food of choice, which yes for some people is also happiness, for the benefit of a longer and healthier life. One (like me) may choose a profession in music that pays me peanuts but is something I am very passionate about. So I sacrifice a better income for the benefit of a more satisfying job. Someone may sacrifice a well loved career for the more important role of being a stay at home mom or dad (assuming one couldn't do both). Or something common these days, sacrificing your preferred location which has become just too expensive to live, for something farther away that is more affordable where you can afford a more comfortable home. This is important stuff where we make choices after weighing all the options. Then sacrifices often need to be made. Or if we don't want to make any sacrifice in our current situation we can change it all up and hope to rearrange without making sacrifices next time.

So when dealing with a partner who does not fulfill our sex drive we have a choice to make. Try your best to improve the situation and just live with the results (sacrificing some of your needs), or venture out and fill your needs elsewhere (with or without your partner's blessing) or end the relationship, or scale back the relationship. To each their own. I'm just saying that some people may choose to sacrifice their sex life for the greater good or the "big picture" as the above poster wrote, because for some people keeping that boat steady is more valuable to them than their sex life (even if left unsatisfied). NEVER be critical of another and how they make or rationalize their own decisions. Everyone is different and we all value the aspects of our relationships differently and we all make sacrifices at some point in our lives. A workable sacrifice to me may be a deal breaker to you.

It is rare to find everything, but the optimist will find a way to be happy with what he has, rather than focusing on what he does not have. With that said, if you can find a solution to fill that void, that is workable, then by all means go at it!

 

[KimGordon67]

As someone who's generally very risk averse with respect to my marriage, I agree with this but even when i occasionally muse 'wouldn't it be nice if ...' I am still usually thinking about my big picture goals. Sometimes whatever i might want to do doesnt fit the big picture, so I dont.

I totally take your point and will respond to your longer post when I'm at a proper keyboard. But here I'd suggest musing 'wouldn't it be nice if ...' is a little different from the 'I wish I could...'statements that are usually made with a marked tone of dissatisfaction. We all have 'wouldn't it be nice ...' moments. My point was more that people often say 'I wish I could.. ' when they actually CAN. There seems little point being jealous of someone having something that they have because they're prepared to take a risk that you won't take.
I know my thoughts on marriage et al are not wildly popular, and I accept that most people see things quite differently. But it also makes me sad (and I guess a little bit frustrated) to see many people fundamentally unhappy - and NOT at peace with whatever compromise they've made - basically because of fear. I'm not just talking about sex here at all.

 

[KimGordon67]

So maybe one of the reasons that I struggle with this is that I've never had that sort of a relationship - and that's a fairly conscious choice on my part. My husband is absolutely the love of my life, and the rock on which I build everything. Our relationship has been spectacular for nearly 18 years, and we've raised the most brilliant kid. I've made a lot of sacrifices for him, and he has for me - but to a large extent, we've never seen them as individual sacrifices, because we're a team that is absolutely greater than the sum of its parts. BUT I can, and always have been able to, imagine life without him, and we've always functioned with a fair degree of independence. In fact, when we met, I'd pretty much given up on ever having a meaningful relationship (yes, at the grand age of 32), and was really fine with that.

I guess that makes it easier to walk away without needing much in the way of reason, and it maybe indicates a lack of 'real' commitment - but for me (and I assume for him) it's necessary. So in that sense, I am risk averse - I absolutely cannot be in a relationship in which I'm totally dependent on the other person, because of the risks that entails.

I do, however, make awesome chocolate chip cookies, so I come with some benefits.

Sometimes the reasons are not quite so tangible. I believe that many people who start the "my wife (husband) doesn't want sex any more" threads are often emotionally anguished and conflicted. They still love their spouse, still feel a deep desire to connect with them in a way that is the most natural expression of their love, and still can't imagine their lives without that person. All of the reasons for wanting to marry that person in the first place are still there and have grown deeper and matured with time. There is no denying that sex feels good and is a biological need but when your very essence becomes entwined with another human being then losing that intimate connection to half of your soul is unbearable, but you still bear it because of who that person is and what they mean to you.

People write about the lack of sex because it's something that they can put into words and that everyone understands. "How can I get her (him) interested in sex again" means both what it says at face value, but also means "How can I fill this longing inside of me that is so intense that I can barely breath much less put it into words." Someone who has never felt that agony has no way to relate to what it feels like, or why those of us who have committed ourselves so completely to another human being and endured it would do it again. They read "I want sex and my wife doesn't" and naturally conclude, "Well, then leave and get sex then if it's so important to you."

Unfortunately, most of us choose to bear our crosses silently because we don't want her (him) to feel inadequate, responsible, or like a bad lover. So yes, we accept our situation out of love but it does wear away at our emotional and intimate connection. Sooner or later it's on life support, and (IMHO) that's when people really start looking at kids, money, and other reasons to stay. Even then the vestiges of their love and commitment make it easy to rationalize staying. Hope springs eternal and all, Who am i to judge.

I guess that's enough rambling for now. I'm enjoying this thread by the way. It's very voyeuristic in a way, and so much more genuine and honest than most.

 

[KimGordon67]

Sometimes...sometimes not. I do agree that if someone does have better options that will help lead them to a happier and more fulfilling life, then fear of taking that step isn't a good excuse. In that case, if they choose to 'do nothing' and stay in their current situation, they should accept the choice they made and make the best of what they have.

This is really the mandarins I'm talking about.

It is rare to find everything, but the optimist will find a way to be happy with what he has, rather than focusing on what he does not have. With that said, if you can find a solution to fill that void, that is workable, then by all means go at it!

And this. Maybe Racey was a bit universal in her statements, but I think her point that if you're unhappy, and you choose to remain in the situation that makes you unhappy, you have chosen that is true. I would probably add to that though that you might have chosen unhappiness in that area in order to gain something else in another area (which is really whatever everyone has already said). The problem I have is when people THEN choose to NOT make the best of what they've got, to NOT find a way to be happy with it.

I'm reminded of a story someone told in another thread about the lack of sex in his marriage. He talked about a significant day on which he sent his wife chocolates and flowers and took her out for dinner ... and still didn't 'get anything' in return. I didn't say this to him, but I really WANTED to say 'Yes you did - you got to delight someone you love, and enjoy what I assume was a lovely meal with your life partner'.

 

[RacyWilde]

*

Are relationships supposed to last until death? If not, why do people try to force them to? Let a relationship be. If we allowed our relationships to be organic then maybe there wouldn't be so many 'unhappy' marriages.

Deciding to stick with an 'unhappy marriage' (whether that be just in part, such as sexless, or all) I believe has a lot to do with the ideals of monogamy. Now *in general...

Monogamists enter a relationship until death - aka traditional marriage. Breaking up before death results in 'failure' and they don't want to fail. It's almost as if the failure of a marriage is the worst possible thing in the world.

As a polyamorous person, the idea of not being able to live without another person is unfathomable to me. Marital codependency is unattractive and undermines the human experience. Everything in this world can be achieved without marriage (except a marriage...lol), even the deepest, strongest, most awe-inspiring love.

So, why is marriage, and sticking it out to the end, so important to monogamists? My guess: Marriage has become an achievement. A bragging right. It's a romantic ideal that we are told by society is the ultimate. But, I don't understand why you should be compelled to hold to a commitment you made in your twenties for the rest of your life, especially when the relationship isn't fulfilling anymore. But that's the problem -
a marriage is not just a relationship to a monogamist, becomes their whole life. One of the reasons I believe monogamist married couples stay in an 'unhappy' marriage is because their lives are too entwined - family, finances, resources, security, safety - that it becomes a logical decision to suffer through the relationship to keep everything else in their lives intact. To me, there lies the failures.

But, I find polyamourists think differently. Again *in general, they enter and keep a relationship until the relationship has ended, not life. They have this omniscient perspective that not everything is meant to last forever so they enjoy it, nurture it, learn from it while they can. Rather than thinking of themselves as part of a couple living the same life, they think of themselves as individuals sharing their life (or part thereof). A lot of monogamist married couples think they are doing the later, but in actuality they are not.

I'd like to point out... There is no evidence to suggest that greater happiness will be achieved the longer a marriage stands. It's just a romanic idea. "Happily Ever After".


*In general - yes, this means from my personal experience of living and watching the world. Just thought I'd clarify for the anti-generalists...lol.

 

[pplwatching]

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