How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Tryharder62]

That is not false hope to the extent it is hope at all. Existentialism does not promise reason can overcome every challenge (that would the the attitude of the 18th Century Enlightenment); existentialism only says you might as well try.

I think I am more like CS Lewis describes:

A person who is convinced of an existential argument says, 'I believe because I am satisfied when I do'. CS Lewis argues desires :that there is an explanation of the source of the existential needs: “If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world.
I am definately made for another world.

I think there is more to this life than living and dying and more than just trying to make it through the day......Oh and oldie but a goodie!!

https://vimeo.com/27263621

So long as it's music I can sing. I've had a lot of school-chorus experience. Karaoke is my occasional hobby. I filksing (look it up!) at every SF convention I attend. "If you don't believe in angels, you've never heard me sing; if you don't believe in devils, you've never heard me snore."

I had a lot of school-chorus experience too. I don't Karaoke in public but have been known to put on a dang good performance at home. I did look up filksing and it looks cool! Very fun. Do you play the guitar or do you just sing at SF conventions acapella?

 

[KingOrfeo]

I don't Karaoke in public . . .

Perhaps that is because you don't drink? There is a reason why one never sees karaoke machines in coffee bars.

Do you play the guitar or do you just sing at SF conventions acapella?

A capella -- but I can sing well enough to pull that off.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Apostles, disciples.

Demons, daemons.

 

[Maidboy]

It is hard for non-believers to understand that death is not a bad thing. God is actually calling the innocent home to eternal life with him. He has a purpose for each of us here on earth, but then he calls us home for eternity. Earthly death is not the end.

When Gabriel tells Mary what is going to happen he waits for her answer. She says "let it be" - She consents.

As to your last suggestion, I think I'll pass.

Us non-believers fully understand that death is inevitable and morally neutral. We don't need fairy tales to comfort us.

While death is not bad, it is the process of dying that can be excruciating. If you honestly think that children dying of cancer, intestinal parasites, insects burrowing through their eyes, plagues, famines etc, are all part of some divine plan, than you are every bit as monstrous as the imaginary deity you worship.

May you choke on the blood and body of your savior.

 

[Tryharder62]

Us non-believers fully understand that death is inevitable and morally neutral. We don't need fairy tales to comfort us.

While death is not bad, it is the process of dying that can be excruciating. If you honestly think that children dying of cancer, intestinal parasites, insects burrowing through their eyes, plagues, famines etc, are all part of some divine plan, than you are every bit as monstrous as the imaginary deity you worship.

May you choke on the blood and body of your savior.

I won't choke. I know how to give myself the Heimlich.

Seriously though, I do understand where you are coming from, especially as someone who wants to help people so much that I became a nurse. I have questions come to mind just like yours. Why did I have to be molested as a child? Why is my dad dead at 74( the greatest dad), when the 93 year old lady I take care of because her child can't stand her- and is about the meanest thing - lives? The one thing that really got me is that if I were God I wouldn't and couldn't let my son die on the cross like Jesus did. (I have two sons). Why did the group of missionaries get tortured when they just want to spread the message?

I can't answer all those questions. Especially ones about the children you mentioned. Hindsight is twenty/ twenty. In some cases I can see why. I help a lot of people who went through what I went through, etc. etc. If I were God, honestly, I would just stamp out evil. I wouldn't give you a choice but to love me. (It's a good thing I'm not God).

To create us without the potential for the opposite character evil, would not allow us to know what true love is. He gave us a choice. Our choice was often evil. But evil will not win in the end.

I can't tell you the number of people who get angry at me for what happens to the children. I am not talking about you because I don't know your heart, but 99% of the time when I ask "so what are you doing to help those children?," the answer is nothing. If people are so upset, they don't need my God to do something, they need to do something.

I just realized how much music ministers to me. I'll include this even though most won't listen. It popped into my mind. I choose to do something!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_RjndG0IX8

I plod on,
Kathy

 

[KingOrfeo]

Seriously though, I do understand where you are coming from, especially as someone who wants to help people so much that I became a nurse.

So you do porn! Please, please link some clips!

 

[Tryharder62]

So you do porn! Please, please link some clips!

I get that a lot. Even more so when I worked the night shift

 

[KingOrfeo]

While death is not bad, it is the process of dying that can be excruciating. If you honestly think that children dying of cancer, intestinal parasites, insects burrowing through their eyes, plagues, famines etc, are all part of some divine plan, than you are every bit as monstrous as the imaginary deity you worship.

The existence of those phenomena is compatible with a Godless material universe, but, to be fair, it is also compatible with a universe where God mostly just lets things happen as they would in a Godless material universe; it's not divine plan, it's free will, which we wouldn't really have if God were constantly stepping in to cushion the pain or set things right.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Apostles, disciples.

Not the same thing although many Disciples are Apostles and vice versa.

 

[Maidboy]

I can't answer all those questions.

Of course you can't, but like thousands of theologians, you twist yourself into logical knots trying.

You assume the existence of God without any basis in fact, and flail about to make facts fit your presuppositions. God is unknowable yet you know there is a God...

 

[Maidboy]

The existence of those phenomena is compatible with a Godless material universe, but, to be fair, it is also compatible with a universe where God mostly just lets things happen as they would in a Godless material universe; it's not divine plan, it's free will, which we wouldn't really have if God were constantly stepping in to cushion the pain or set things right.

"Mostly" lets things happen? God allows unspeakable suffering just "most" of the time while intervening when He's feeling charitable?

Alzheimer's, multiple sclerosis, juvenile diabetes etc, have nothing to do with free will, nor are they part of some incomprehensible divine plan. They just are.

Natural phenomena are indeed compatible with a godless universe, but theologians still trip over themselves trying to fit God somewhere into the picture.

There is no God. Get over it and move on already.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Deism is a philosophical position which posits that a god does not interfere directly with the world. It also rejects revelation as a source of religious knowledge with the conclusion that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a single creator of the universe.

Deism - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

 

[flanneland]

Fascinating thread for Lit.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Fascinating thread for Lit.

As long as the op keeps away.

 

[Tryharder62]

Of course you can't, but like thousands of theologians, you twist yourself into logical knots trying.

You assume the existence of God without any basis in fact, and flail about to make facts fit your presuppositions. God is unknowable yet you know there is a God...

Hey, I can't tie it up all nice in a bow for you. There is a little leap people have to make called faith.

I admire people who can handle this life on their own, but I can't. I was broken. I know people can change on their own without God, but I couldn't. I know some people think he is unknowable, but I know him. Jesus lived. I like how he lived. I need him as a mentor. I trust him for the rest. He doesn't audibly speak to me but I know he is there. I can't explain it, but for me, I know it.

The thing you fail to see is that I am not twisted in knots. I am not trying to change anybodies mind. I am just sharing my experience, strength and hope in a thread discussing God. Take what you like and leave the rest.

 

[Hard_Rom]

faith is for when you have lost hope

 

[Tryharder62]

faith is for when you have lost hope

Hmmmmmm....intersesting......or is it when you have found it?

 

[KingOrfeo]

"Mostly" lets things happen?

If it were "all the time" instead of "mostly," prayer would be pointless, wouldn't it?

 

[Tryharder62]

If it were "all the time" instead of "mostly," prayer would be pointless, wouldn't it?

Soooooo, if prayer changes things then is God absolutely sovereign?

DISCUSS

 

[KingOrfeo]

Soooooo, if prayer changes things then is God absolutely sovereign?

DISCUSS

It means he's a sovereign willing to hear and occasionally grant petitions from his subjects.

Of course, the hypothesis that prayer changes things is non-falsifiable.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/4f/6a/01/4f6a016cb8df899808674ff5fe3a0155.jpg

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Soooooo, if prayer changes things then is God absolutely sovereign?

DISCUSS

God is absolutely sovereign, but He leaves room for us to influence Him through prayer and our behavior.

 

[KingOrfeo]

God is absolutely sovereign, but He leaves room for us to influence Him through prayer and our behavior.

Roughly the same relationship as between a terrorist and a hostage, then.

 

[xfrodobagginsx]

Roughly the same relationship as between a terrorist and a hostage, then.

Would you say that about a King who gave His Son's life for His servants?

 

[EternalFantasies]

Deism is a philosophical position which posits that a god does not interfere directly with the world. It also rejects revelation as a source of religious knowledge with the conclusion that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of a single creator of the universe.

Deism - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Entirely false. From the interference, to the revelation, to an anyone can just... all false. Whoever believes in that is a spiritual-wanna-be-intellectual.

faith is for when you have lost hope

You just found it sounded nice?

Faith & Hope go hand in hand.

 

[Maidboy]

Hey, I can't tie it up all nice in a bow for you. There is a little leap people have to make called faith.

I admire people who can handle this life on their own, but I can't. I was broken. I know people can change on their own without God, but I couldn't. I know some people think he is unknowable, but I know him. Jesus lived. I like how he lived. I need him as a mentor. I trust him for the rest. He doesn't audibly speak to me but I know he is there. I can't explain it, but for me, I know it.

The thing you fail to see is that I am not twisted in knots. I am not trying to change anybodies mind. I am just sharing my experience, strength and hope in a thread discussing God. Take what you like and leave the rest.

Believe me, I understand your turning to God in a time of distress. But I suggest that the comfort you received was from the kindness and understanding from fellow human beings, and not from some divine entity. Yes, it was faith that brought you together in the first place, but it is the community of your fellow humans that give you comfort.

You seem like a kind-hearted, well meaning person, so please accept my apology for my harsh words. But understand that by proclaiming your faith (yes, I know you're not preaching), I believe you are perpetuating a lie. A lie that has inflicted untold misery to countless people throughout history.

I wish you all the joy & happiness that life has to offer... pax vobiscum, MB