Words to eliminate

[MindsMirror]

We know we're guilty of overuse of certain words. We've received comments to that effect and self inspection reveals it to be true.

Some guides recommend cutting these overused words completely (random example).

The question is should words that characters speak be given the same inspection? People overuse words in their dialog. Should the same rules be applied? Won't that change the characters? How about in the case that the main character is the narrator and not some omniscient voice in everyone's head?

Thoughts and recommendations?
-MM

 

[sbrooks103x]

We know we're guilty of overuse of certain words. We've received comments to that effect and self inspection reveals it to be true.

Some guides recommend cutting these overused words completely (random example).

The question is should words that characters speak be given the same inspection? People overuse words in their dialog. Should the same rules be applied? Won't that change the characters? How about in the case that the main character is the narrator and not some omniscient voice in everyone's head?

Thoughts and recommendations?
-MM

I would say that dialogue should reflect the way the character speaks, and not just overuse. Some people object to profanity, but if that's how the character speaks, that's the way it is. As for narrative, I'm more worried about misuse than overuse! I saw one story that said that the house "literally had a hot tub!" Is there any way to "figuratively" have a hot tub?

 

[SamScribble]

The words that characters use in their dialogue help to define the characters.

Likewise if the narrator is a 'character'. Imagine 'The Catcher in the Rye' or 'Last Orders' if the narrator spoke in a neutral voice and avoided repeating their pet words and phrases. They would be two different novels.

 

[sr71plt]

I think the first sentence of each of the preceding posts hit the basics of it:

"I would say that dialogue should reflect the way the character speaks, and not just overuse."

and,

"The words that characters use in their dialogue help to define the characters."

 

[Haulover]

...
Some guides recommend cutting these overused words completely (random example).
...

I agree with minimizing (I didn't say eliminating) some of the over-used words described in this article. But like almost any word, some of them certainly do have a place in literature - when used properly.

Oops - I said "certainly"!

 

[LesLumens]

I can count the number of character dialogue suggestions I've accepted from my editor on the fingers of one hand, and every one of them had to do with clarity rather than word choice or grammar.

He's known from the beginning, and it doesn't bother him a bit

I don't question what my characters are saying. The same applies to a lesser degree when it's a first person narration.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

The words that characters use in their dialogue help to define the characters.

I think an author who chooses to make his narrator someone who can't write reasonably well is asking for a lot of trouble. Readers expect, and deserve, decent use of language in what we ask them to read. And that's true even if it's dialect, which must be consistent, and which follows its own rules. (Which you must know if you're going to use it effectively.)

I've had a minor character speak in dialect in one of my stories. I do think that dialect is a good way to help define a character. But it was some of the hardest writing I've done, and, ultimately, I cut way back and settled for just a bit of the dialect--enough to give the flavor and, I hope, bring the guy to life--instead of what I know I've heard from people who speak the way I wanted readers to think this guy spoke.

You should probably avoid a lot of dialect or heavy dialect unless you're someone who can handle it as well as Mark Twain did in Huckleberry Finn. Most of us aren't in that league. Hell, most authors (living or dead) aren't in that league.

 

[sr71plt]

Happily, that's just your opinion. I just finished reading Lee Smith's Fair and Tender Ladies, which is a series of letters by a mountain woman from when she's a young girl until she dies. She never becomes highly literate, but you can see the progression in not only her writing and use of language and spelling but also her experience and the depth of her intellect. Brilliant. And I certainly wouldn't be one to say that there aren't writers here who can pull it off too. There's room for more than pablum here.

 

[SamScribble]

I think an author who chooses to make his narrator someone who can't write reasonably well is asking for a lot of trouble. Readers expect, and deserve, decent use of language in what we ask them to read.

Thank you, sir. Thank you kindly. It’s so nice after all these years to have someone put me on the right track, as it were. It really is, sir. Thank you. Thank you.

If I could shake your hand, sir, I would. It never occurred to me that narraters would need to be able to write proper, sir. You see, sir, I thought narraters needed to narrate. I didn’t even realise that they needed to write. I thought they needed to tell a good story, a story that the readers would read and perhaps think about. Or smile about. Or cheer about. And, occasionally, shed a tear over. But it seems I were wrong, sir.

I also didn’t realise that readers ‘deserve decent use of language’, sir. Mind you, in my defence, sir, I might have been led astray by the some of the comments readers leave under stories on Lit. I mean … well, at least half of them are not really written in English, are they, sir? But … well … there you go, sir.

The main thing is, sir, that after 60-something years of being paid to write, after umpteen plays, and thousands of newspaper and magazine columns, and several books, someone has finally come along and put me right. Someone has finally pointed out the error of my ways, as it were. Thank, you sir. Thank you.

 

[Handley_Page]

Sam !
Down boy!

You sarcastic devil

 

[Hypoxia]

Avoid all forms of the passive construction "to be" including is, was, are, will or may be, etc. Be dynamic.

 

[sbrooks103x]

I think an author who chooses to make his narrator someone who can't write reasonably well is asking for a lot of trouble. Readers expect, and deserve, decent use of language in what we ask them to read. And that's true even if it's dialect, which must be consistent, and which follows its own rules. (Which you must know if you're going to use it effectively.)

I've had a minor character speak in dialect in one of my stories. I do think that dialect is a good way to help define a character. But it was some of the hardest writing I've done, and, ultimately, I cut way back and settled for just a bit of the dialect--enough to give the flavor and, I hope, bring the guy to life--instead of what I know I've heard from people who speak the way I wanted readers to think this guy spoke.

You should probably avoid a lot of dialect or heavy dialect unless you're someone who can handle it as well as Mark Twain did in Huckleberry Finn. Most of us aren't in that league. Hell, most authors (living or dead) aren't in that league.

I think that if you are going to use dialect you'd better REALLY know the dialect, otherwise you will not only get complaints from readers who have trouble following the dialect, but from readers who understand it and will criticize how you use it.

There is a comic strip, "Non Sequitur" with a character who speaks in a parody of a Maine accent (at least I THINK it's a parody; despite being a New Englander I don't consider myself an expert!) and as far as I know it is accepted because it is just a comic strip, I would expect much more critical eyes if it was used in a story.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

I say things like 'really,' and also 'really REALLY.'

And usually it means I'm about to kill you.

And then again, there are those instances like in 'Small Soldiers' where, although I have killed them, I really didn't kill them enough, and I should go back and kill them some more.

 

[8letters]

I think that if you are going to use dialect you'd better REALLY know the dialect, otherwise you will not only get complaints from readers who have trouble following the dialect, but from readers who understand it and will criticize how you use it.

The story in my sig is about an American who goes to Cork, Ireland as his first stop in touring Europe for the summer and falls in love with the first Irish girl he talks to. He goes with her to visit her family's farm and then they tour Europe together for the summer. Once the summer is over, they go to Boston where they have a huge fight and eventually reconcile. I've never been to Ireland and don't know anyone who is Irish. I did a lot research on the Cork accent but never felt like I came close to understanding it. I repeatedly tried to get help with the story and had no luck. It got to the point that I had to either accept publishing it with weak Cork accents or never publish it. So I published it.

274K views. 94 comments and numerous PM's later, no one has said anything about the Cork accent in the story.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

Thank you, sir. Thank you kindly. It’s so nice after all these years to have someone put me on the right track, as it were. It really is, sir. Thank you. Thank you.

If I could shake your hand, sir, I would. It never occurred to me that narraters would need to be able to write proper, sir. You see, sir, I thought narraters needed to narrate. I didn’t even realise that they needed to write. I thought they needed to tell a good story, a story that the readers would read and perhaps think about. Or smile about. Or cheer about. And, occasionally, shed a tear over. But it seems I were wrong, sir.

I also didn’t realise that readers ‘deserve decent use of language’, sir. Mind you, in my defence, sir, I might have been led astray by the some of the comments readers leave under stories on Lit. I mean … well, at least half of them are not really written in English, are they, sir? But … well … there you go, sir.

The main thing is, sir, that after 60-something years of being paid to write, after umpteen plays, and thousands of newspaper and magazine columns, and several books, someone has finally come along and put me right. Someone has finally pointed out the error of my ways, as it were. Thank, you sir. Thank you.

One does wonder why, "after 60-something years of being paid to write," a person would still be insecure about his ability to handle language decently.

And why that person thinks "decently" is a synonym for "properly."

 

[49greg]

My comment and a ? about "Golden Syrup"

Some good advice. And hits home, Minimizing is something I should do, both in my own speech and and in writing.

Interesting what she wrote about 'said'. Another author, I think Elmore Leonard in his ten rules, recommends only using 'said' with no adverbs. My instinct is to do as Ms Urban suggests: using 'he said' - 'she said' for the first few exchanges of a long conversation, and then leave them off.

Unfortunately not all my readers agree. On one of my earlier stories, (heck all my posted stories are earlier, I need to get writing and finish something,) I got raked over the coals by several readers in comments and by email, for confusing them as to who said what by not putting 'he/she said' after every sentence.

I probably use 'said' too often now.

By the way, for you Brit folks, How is "Lyle's Golden Syrup" supposed to be used - I know it's a sweetener - cane sugar syrup - is it used on cereal or oatmeal or eaten by the soup spoon full or what? I saw some at our local grocery store and got a can recently. This morning I put some in a cup of tea, hoping to keep me awake after a late night.

I finished my tea, but as I sit here the smoky aroma of the syrup persists and is wonderfully tantalizing.

I grew up in a Brit colony (now part of China) and have seen the can/tin before, but it was never something in our house - parents didn't want us to forget we were 'Mercans, specially after my little sis started talking in an RP accent.

And yes, I use tea for a morning pickup, I love the smell of coffee, but the taste is too bitter. Far too bitter.

 

[sr71plt]

One does wonder why, "after 60-something years of being paid to write," a person would still be insecure about his ability to handle language decently.

And I think that both the irony and the point of SamS's post drifted right over your head.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

And I think that both the irony and the point of SamS's post drifted right over your head.

You mean the way the point of my post floated right over yours?

 

[sr71plt]

You mean the way the point of my post floated right over yours?

Apparently so, but then I think SamS has way more good sense on this than you do so I've stopped paying much attention to you at all.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

Apparently so, but then I think SamS has way more good sense on this than you do so I've stopped paying much attention to you at all.

I see. That must be why it only took you two minutes to reply to my last post.

 

[SimonDoom]

The words that keep popping up in my first drafts, which I try to get rid of, are junk qualifying adverbs -- words like "really, pretty, fairly." I seem to have a first-draft habit of not committing to my verbs or adjectives and of needing to shade them with needless adverbs. So on the second go around I try to get rid of the adverbs. I don't always succeed, but the effort makes a difference.

 

[8letters]

Interesting what she wrote about 'said'. Another author, I think Elmore Leonard in his ten rules, recommends only using 'said' with no adverbs. My instinct is to do as Ms Urban suggests: using 'he said' - 'she said' for the first few exchanges of a long conversation, and then leave them off.

Unfortunately not all my readers agree. On one of my earlier stories, (heck all my posted stories are earlier, I need to get writing and finish something,) I got raked over the coals by several readers in comments and by email, for confusing them as to who said what by not putting 'he/she said' after every sentence.

I probably use 'said' too often now.

The standard that I've seemed to have reached is that for a conversation between two people, have the two initial "said" lines and then I can go three or four lines before I need to use "said" again. Reading my own stories, I get confused if I go beyond three or four lines. I try to use beats to supplement "said" in those later lines.

 

[Handley_Page]

By the way, for you Brit folks, How is "Lyle's Golden Syrup" supposed to be used - I know it's a sweetener - cane sugar syrup - is it used on cereal or oatmeal or eaten by the soup spoon full or what? I saw some at our local grocery store and got a can recently. This morning I put some in a cup of tea, hoping to keep me awake after a late night.

.

I sometimes put a little on my breakfast Porridge. Or occasionally some in a sandwich
(especially in really fresh bread). Take a look here.

BTW: T&L's black treacle works wonders in Rich Fruit cakes and oat biscuits.

 

[SimonDoom]

The standard that I've seemed to have reached is that for a conversation between two people, have the two initial "said" lines and then I can go three or four lines before I need to use "said" again. Reading my own stories, I get confused if I go beyond three or four lines. I try to use beats to supplement "said" in those later lines.

I think the cardinal rule in this situation is to make sure the reader is not confused. Sometimes it's clear from the words themselves who is speaking. If the character says "Hey, mom" you know it's not the mom. You don't need to use "said" in that situation. I don't like to have many lines of dialogue without using "said", because the reader might get confused.

I don't think frequent use of "he said/she said" bothers readers. Writers may think they are overusing it as they write but readers aren't likely to be bothered by it.

 

[Haulover]

...
By the way, for you Brit folks, How is "Lyle's Golden Syrup" supposed to be used - I know it's a sweetener - cane sugar syrup - is it used on cereal or oatmeal or eaten by the soup spoon full or what? I saw some at our local grocery store and got a can recently. This morning I put some in a cup of tea, hoping to keep me awake after a late night.

I finished my tea, but as I sit here the smoky aroma of the syrup persists and is wonderfully tantalizing.
...

I sometimes put a little on my breakfast Porridge. Or occasionally some in a sandwich
(especially in really fresh bread). Take a look here.

BTW: T&L's black treacle works wonders in Rich Fruit cakes and oat biscuits.

Greg,

HP is right.

It's not used like American/Canadian syrups at all. It has a much thicker consistency, it's sweeter, and doesn't have the flavor of a good maple syrup.

It's usually used as a spread on bread and butter, and often with peanut butter -- i.e. where an American would have a PBJ, a Brit will often have peanut butter and syrup.

I grew up with Lyle's Golden Syrup, though I'm not a huge fan. After living in the USA for over 20 years, my wife bought me a small can - and I couldn't finish it. 'Course, YMMV...