Education - Should it be Free or Not?

[Chris_Michael]

We encourage our young American children to get a good education after graduating high school. The concept of "accepting the loans" is engrained in all of our heads (Americans).

My PharmD cost me 6 years and over $200,000. Pharmacists make $50-65 per hour. $130,000 per year IF IF IF you can give up your soul and sanity to actually stick with the job. I made it about two years before I lost my fucking mind.

Many pharmacy technicians who have worked with me had up to $20,000 in student loan debt. Their average pay was MINIMUM WAGE. Here is what they didn't know. Being a pharmacy technician doesn't require schooling. You can do it at the age of 18. I did. I was making $6.60 per hour at a local grocery store pharmacy in 2006. No loans.

Good ole Capitalism!

Now, somebody will say, "Well move to another country then." I have pondered it. I've been thinking about moving out of the States since before it became a fad under the fear of Trump.

One way or another, I will take my debt to my grave. And you can't get $200K from a dead Chris. The same is true for technicians who can't make enough money to pay off their loans either.

IF i were smart, I would have stopped that 18-year-old Chris from following that dream. Because 18yo Chris was being told how important it was to get an education. Granted, it is nice having the knowledge that I do. If I have a cold, I don't have to throw a random guess at nice looking labels. When I'm at the doctor, I know immediately if I want the drug the doctor prescribes. And it feels good to be able to help people who have questions.

BUT the entire point is that that money will never be given back. I'm not paying it off. I have no reason to. My parents did not cosign on any of my loans so they are free. I can't move out of country with them still here anyway. So it will have to be after they pass.

I don't want a house. I don't want nice cars. I just enjoy my free time and gaming. I'm an introvert with severe social anxiety, general anxiety, and major depression (all diagnosed). I'm not married. I have no kids. I'm a genetic dead end which shouls have never happened. So, you're welcome society.

And many people are in the same situation. They cannot pay off their loans. So why is America still loaning? Why do Americans teach kids to invest in the loans?

Regardless of it's technically something that is costing money, if it's not paid back, you may as well consider it free AKA Socialism.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Get your education at a Canadian university for half the price and then move back to the US. Lots of American students up here. Some even like the place enough to stay. Canadian educational credentials accepted anywhere in the US.

 

[Chris_Michael]

Get your education at a Canadian university for half the price and then move back to the US. Lots of American students up here. Some even like the place enough to stay. Canadian educational credentials accepted anywhere in the US.

Yeah, I found out that college was paid for in Canada. I didn't know that until several months ago.

Canada does sound really awesome. It's too late for me now, but I would like to have grown up outside of the US. Canada would be a good alternative.

 

[someoneyouknow]

It can't be free. Someone has to pay for it directly or indirectly. You many not have shell out thousands of dollars to go to school but you most certainly pay for it in your taxes.

Why should you get something for free if you're not willing to put in the effort to make it happen?

 

[Chris_Michael]

It can't be free. Someone has to pay for it directly or indirectly. You many not have shell out thousands of dollars to go to school but you most certainly pay for it in your taxes.

Why should you get something for free if you're not willing to put in the effort to make it happen?

But how can you dismiss the fact that loans simply aren't getting paid. We know that people are coming out of college and not finding jobs. Private institutions saturate the market, and people borrow money that is expected to pay back over the course of 10-30+ years. No jobs, no payments. No payments means the loan is just eaten by the loaner.

It will eventually collapse in on itself.

So, we should either stop stigmatizing people who opt out of college or we should make it affordable.

I swear, I meet people who just outright say they don't care about their loans and will defer as long as possible and then pay the absolute minimum for their lifetime.

How is that sustainable?

And the American society teaches children that education is a must or you'll be a failure. Well, I'm a doctor and a failure IMO. I hate my career. Sucks to be me. Violin queued. But this isn't about just me. It's about why America is trillions of dollars in debt with no solution in sight. This goes right back to corporate rich fuckers who shit on the working class.

If there's any reason not to like Trump, that's it IMO

 

[Carnal_Flower]

Are you talking about the one who doles out the drugs? What was so bad about it?

I see some of your points, but it's a much wider problem.

I agree there should be less pressure to make these huge decisions when you're young, but . . . that's not the gov't's problem. It's parents, society, etc.

I think kids should have to do a year of public service, esp if they're getting loans. Before undergrad.

I wouldn't disagree with making school loans more stringent. That's about as "conservative" as I'll ever get.

My PharmD cost me 6 years and over $200,000. Pharmacists make $50-65 per hour. $130,000 per year IF IF IF you can give up your soul and sanity to actually stick with the job. I made it about two years before I lost my fucking mind.

 

[someoneyouknow]

But how can you dismiss the fact that loans simply aren't getting paid. We know that people are coming out of college and not finding jobs.

. . . .

If there's any reason not to like Trump, that's it IMO

Without going through the whole thing, when I went to school I paid for it out of my own pocket. First 2 years at a local community college where I got two degrees while working a full-time job. The money came from my paper route I had done when I was 11-14.

When I went away to school (a private institution) I again paid for it though in that case my parents and I split the cost of room, tuition and board but I was responsible for everything else. I worked on the weekends at school and during breaks came home and worked full-time to pay for the next semester. I didn't get any aid until my last semester.

When I graduated I didn't have a job lined up. Yes, I stayed home with my parents but all the while I did pay off my (admittedly small) student loan. Eventually I did find work and went on from there.

No one forces people to go to the most expensive school possible or go into debt because they were too busy getting drunk or stoned throughout high school (during which I also worked).

People make choices and for good or bad, they have to live those choices. One can't expect someone else to be there every single time you screw up or make a bad decision. If you can't figure out how to go to school and pay for it, then don't go. Or, if you do go, don't complain when you have loans because you didn't want to work.

It's called being an adult. If you're going to whine about how tough things are, what kind of person will you be in the world outside of school?

 

[Hard_Rom]

Yeah, I found out that college was paid for in Canada. I didn't know that until several months ago.

Canada does sound really awesome. It's too late for me now, but I would like to have grown up outside of the US. Canada would be a good alternative.

Not paid for but heavily subsidized. A fuck of a lot cheaper than a US school. University or community college. Our colleges here are similar to for profit technical and trade schools in the US. Still takes a bit to get a couple of kids through university. And there are still thinks like student loans. But the burden is far less. A pharmacist would have little problem paying them off.

Over 65 you can get free tuition!

 

[RjThoughts]

Oh, I love how people tell others "Back in my day, I paid for my college education from the money I earned myself." Guess what, things were cheaper BACK THEN!

I had my education paid for by the US government and the state of New York, through TAP, Pell, and a Native American grant. I was able to pay rent because of Pell and how fucking cheap it was then: 4 of us paid $100/month for my rent, cable, and food!

Today, it's ~$3,000/semester for tuition at a community college, then there's between $400-800+ for books, then living expenses, sundries...oh and a car, too.

k-12 NEEDS to be free. Betsy DeVos' idea of for-profit schooling does NOT work. State university costs are outrageous, mostly due to the enormous costs given to football and /men's basketball.

 

[sr71plt]

"Back in my day," I went for six years through a masters at the University of Virginia for $5,000 a year, which was a fifth of my father's salary as an army general. We priced UVa for my granddaughter a couple of weeks ago--$54,000 a year. My son makes very good money, but not five times that in a year. Of course, when I went to school, the football coach didn't make three times the salary that the college president did (and he lived in a house down the block from where I now live in a house that's smaller than mine). Therein lies a lot of the problem of the cost of colleges today, I think. Colleges are trying to be feeder programs into professional sports and are paying more for sports teams and stadiums than academic programs. I stopped donating to UVa when I saw how they budgeted their income.

 

[someoneyouknow]

Oh, I love how people tell others "Back in my day, I paid for my college education from the money I earned myself." Guess what, things were cheaper BACK THEN!

I can assure you, the two years of community college getting two degrees wasn't cheap, including all the supplies I had to buy, nor was the private school I went to yet oddly I managed.

Today, it's ~$3,000/semester for tuition at a community college, then there's between $400-800+ for books, then living expenses, sundries...oh and a car, too

I would have to find my bills from back then, but I'm sure the cost just to go to school was at least half that though the books cost the same. Yes, I was still at home so no rent and such, but what I was making at the restaurant wasn't C level either.

k-12 NEEDS to be free.

Um, K-12 IS free, at least for the kids. Everyone else pays for it.

Betsy DeVos' idea of for-profit schooling does NOT work. State university costs are outrageous, mostly due to the enormous costs given to football and /men's basketball.

So don't go to a state university. This is the "Keeping up with the Joneses" scenario where people think they have to go the most expensive or prestigious school to get a good education. Find a smaller school which has good programs. You'll probably make out better both financially and academically since the smaller schools will probably have instructors able to work with their students more closely.

As to DeVos, being an elite billionaire, one of the people Trump complained about during his campaign, one would expect no less of her. For profit schooling can work but it has to be held to the same standards as public schools AND they don't get to pick and choose who attends. If someone can pay the bill, they're in.

 

[Chris_Michael]

Without going through the whole thing, when I went to school I paid for it out of my own pocket. First 2 years at a local community college where I got two degrees while working a full-time job. The money came from my paper route I had done when I was 11-14.

When I went away to school (a private institution) I again paid for it though in that case my parents and I split the cost of room, tuition and board but I was responsible for everything else. I worked on the weekends at school and during breaks came home and worked full-time to pay for the next semester. I didn't get any aid until my last semester.

When I graduated I didn't have a job lined up. Yes, I stayed home with my parents but all the while I did pay off my (admittedly small) student loan. Eventually I did find work and went on from there.

No one forces people to go to the most expensive school possible or go into debt because they were too busy getting drunk or stoned throughout high school (during which I also worked).

People make choices and for good or bad, they have to live those choices. One can't expect someone else to be there every single time you screw up or make a bad decision. If you can't figure out how to go to school and pay for it, then don't go. Or, if you do go, don't complain when you have loans because you didn't want to work.

It's called being an adult. If you're going to whine about how tough things are, what kind of person will you be in the world outside of school?

There is a TL;DR section at the very end.

"...what kind of person will you be in the world outside of school"? Dude, I have been a licensed, practicing pharmacist since I was 24-years-old, which was 5 years ago. I have worked full time at CVS for two years, and I have spent the last 2 - 2 1/2 years at a small clinic which I love but they aren't pulling the trigger on full time. As job searching goes on, I realize what a mess the field of pharmacy really is. This is NOT something I could have predicted going into school because in 2008, pharmacists were being paid 5-digit bonuses along with doing half the work of what we do now. There were BMWs offered with sign-on bonuses. When I was a young adult, pharmacy WAS WHERE IT WAS AT.

And you want to talk about working during school?! Bitch please, you aint no where near my level. I worked on top of the mandatory internships I had. Literally, I went to class, drove to work, then drove to a different work, getting off at 10pm, coming home to study for graduate classes. The reason why my doctorate was only 6 years was because I went to a 3-year pharmacy school. It was 10-week quarters throughout the year instead of 15-week semesters in a year. We literally got 1 week breaks between instead of the typical long breaks you see in college.

By the way, each of those QUARTERS were $13,000+. That's $52,000 per year for tuition alone. There's 3 years of that plus my undergrad. Trust me, a paper route didn't cover it. Hell, being a pharmacist is the only thing that actually does cover it unless you had the money beforehand.

After working at CVS, I saw America a bit differently. As a professional in healthcare who saw what private schooling institutions did to students, I got to watch PATIENT AFTER PATIENT get screwed over by BIG FUCKING PHARMA. "Oh, your insurance doesn't cover your overpriced, century old drug that was patented because they had a change of route administration." No, for real... Google colchicine. Wiki says that colchicine was used in 550 AD and then use by physicians in the year 1618.

BIG PHARMA said, "Huh, ya know... nobody has ever patented the shit! LET'S FUCKING DO IT!" The brand name Colcrys literally just appeared out of nowhere and the cost was a fucking fortune. Pharmacies were no longer provided with generic colchicine TO THIS VERY DAY. In 2016, it's brand name. BRAND NAME. That's insanity.

That's just ONE example of how Big Pharma has screwed the general public. And let me tell you, Big Pharma has a huge fucking dick. The suits in Big Pharma are all big fucking dicks. Guess who they have in their back pocket! THE FDA!

"Well Chris... but inventions wouldn't happen without Capitalism." BULLSHIT! THEY AREN'T HAPPENING NOW! Antibiotics are going to be completely useless in our future because they are over prescribed. And there's NO backup strat. Contrary to what you hear or see, nothing new is being put out on the market. It's all COPYCAT drugs with different brand names.

I honestly wish all people had the drug knowledge I have. If you did, you'd realize how badly our hard working Americans are getting fucked. You're getting fucked by education and by healthcare. And it's not Obama's fault. It's not Bush's fault, it's not Hillary's fault, and it's not Trump's fault. It's America's fault.

Why do the working class support such a fucked up system? Why do we think it's okay for our politicians to be in the back pocket of the very corporations that fuck us in the ass? Why do tear our hearts out fighting over Blue Candidate vs. Red Candidate? As if it fucking matters! It's just like the Superbowl. I love the Falcons but they fucked up. At the end of the day, they go home with millions of dollars while I have debt. I refuse to cry for a bunch of grown men playing a GAME... unless they want to spot me a couple hundred thousand to pay off my loans. Politicians are no different, and they never will be.

TL;DR - How Does This Not Bother You?​

http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/557ef766ecad04fe50a257cd-960/screen%20shot%202015-06-15%20at%2011.28.56%20am.png​

 

[Carnal_Flower]

I worked for Pfizer for a year. Scary place.

There is a TL;DR section at the very end.

"...what kind of person will you be in the world outside of school"? Dude, I have been a licensed, practicing pharmacist since I was 24-years-old, which was 5 years ago. I have worked full time at CVS for two years, and I have spent the last 2 - 2 1/2 years at a small clinic which I love but they aren't pulling the trigger on full time. As job searching goes on, I realize what a mess the field of pharmacy really is. This is NOT something I could have predicted going into school because in 2008, pharmacists were being paid 5-digit bonuses along with doing half the work of what we do now. There were BMWs offered with sign-on bonuses. When I was a young adult, pharmacy WAS WHERE IT WAS AT.

And you want to talk about working during school?! Bitch please, you aint no where near my level. I worked on top of the mandatory internships I had. Literally, I went to class, drove to work, then drove to a different work, getting off at 10pm, coming home to study for graduate classes. The reason why my doctorate was only 6 years was because I went to a 3-year pharmacy school. It was 10-week quarters throughout the year instead of 15-week semesters in a year. We literally got 1 week breaks between instead of the typical long breaks you see in college.

By the way, each of those QUARTERS were $13,000+. That's $52,000 per year for tuition alone. There's 3 years of that plus my undergrad. Trust me, a paper route didn't cover it. Hell, being a pharmacist is the only thing that actually does cover it unless you had the money beforehand.

After working at CVS, I saw America a bit differently. As a professional in healthcare who saw what private schooling institutions did to students, I got to watch PATIENT AFTER PATIENT get screwed over by BIG FUCKING PHARMA. "Oh, your insurance doesn't cover your overpriced, century old drug that was patented because they had a change of route administration." No, for real... Google colchicine. Wiki says that colchicine was used in 550 AD and then use by physicians in the year 1618.

BIG PHARMA said, "Huh, ya know... nobody has ever patented the shit! LET'S FUCKING DO IT!" The brand name Colcrys literally just appeared out of nowhere and the cost was a fucking fortune. Pharmacies were no longer provided with generic colchicine TO THIS VERY DAY. In 2016, it's brand name. BRAND NAME. That's insanity.

That's just ONE example of how Big Pharma has screwed the general public. And let me tell you, Big Pharma has a huge fucking dick. The suits in Big Pharma are all big fucking dicks. Guess who they have in their back pocket! THE FDA!

"Well Chris... but inventions wouldn't happen without Capitalism." BULLSHIT! THEY AREN'T HAPPENING NOW! Antibiotics are going to be completely useless in our future because they are over prescribed. And there's NO backup strat. Contrary to what you hear or see, nothing new is being put out on the market. It's all COPYCAT drugs with different brand names.

I honestly wish all people had the drug knowledge I have. If you did, you'd realize how badly our hard working Americans are getting fucked. You're getting fucked by education and by healthcare. And it's not Obama's fault. It's not Bush's fault, it's not Hillary's fault, and it's not Trump's fault. It's America's fault.

Why do the working class support such a fucked up system? Why do we think it's okay for our politicians to be in the back pocket of the very corporations that fuck us in the ass? Why do tear our hearts out fighting over Blue Candidate vs. Red Candidate? As if it fucking matters! It's just like the Superbowl. I love the Falcons but they fucked up. At the end of the day, they go home with millions of dollars while I have debt. I refuse to cry for a bunch of grown men playing a GAME... unless they want to spot me a couple hundred thousand to pay off my loans. Politicians are no different, and they never will be.

TL;DR - How Does This Not Bother You?​

http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/557ef766ecad04fe50a257cd-960/screen%20shot%202015-06-15%20at%2011.28.56%20am.png​

 

[Chris_Michael]

I worked for Pfizer for a year. Scary place.

What do you mean? The business aspect or your job? Or both?

 

[Carnal_Flower]

The whole atmosphere. Money money money money money. Did I mention money? I worked in "Consumer Packaging" (I do graphic design), but I was around the execs and SALESPEOPLE and MARKETING all the time. On a corporate "campus" that was like a little sealed off world.

This was the "Consumer" end, though the animal testing was on site.

It was like entering an alternative universe sealed off from the outside world. HUGE gorgeous buildings on a gated country club type of setting, where suits came in and plotted. All money, all Pfizer. Money money money money money. People making big big money.

I was just a drone. Worked there for a year on Advil packaging. Couldn't tell you much about the actual drug part of it.

What do you mean? The business aspect or your job? Or both?

 

[Rightguide]

Oh, I love how people tell others "Back in my day, I paid for my college education from the money I earned myself." Guess what, things were cheaper BACK THEN!

I had my education paid for by the US government and the state of New York, through TAP, Pell, and a Native American grant. I was able to pay rent because of Pell and how fucking cheap it was then: 4 of us paid $100/month for my rent, cable, and food!

Today, it's ~$3,000/semester for tuition at a community college, then there's between $400-800+ for books, then living expenses, sundries...oh and a car, too.

k-12 NEEDS to be free. Betsy DeVos' idea of for-profit schooling does NOT work. State university costs are outrageous, mostly due to the enormous costs given to football and /men's basketball.

Not really. Our money simply had more buying power back then. Plug those numbers into an inflation calculator you'll see what I mean. For instance, something costing $3500 in today's dollars would have cost $431.65 in 1960.

 

[sr71plt]

The point is (and I demonstrated it in my post) that college costs--and the chunk they take out of a family's income--have spiraled way beyond the inflation offset.

 

[srgreene]

The education establishment in this country is selling young people a bill of goods. I've counseled young women who have worthless degrees in such things as "Women Studies" and surprisingly, they find their "skills" are not valued in the job market outside of academe. At an impressionable age, they have been cheated out of the opportunity for a valuable education, and instead they've had their heads filled with progressive, post-colonial nonsense masquerading as learning while being told they were learning something of value.

I do think the United States needs to provide more avenues for self-improvement for young people outside of a traditional four year degree. The German system of apprenticeships has something we should consider.

 

[KindofHere]

..............

 

[sr71plt]

I do think the United States needs to provide more avenues for self-improvement for young people outside of a traditional four year degree. The German system of apprenticeships has something we should consider.

So you support a Department of Education entity, right? You included the socialistic "the United States need to provide" phrase

 

[sharingfantasies]

California used to have tuition free schools all the way into the four year universities. As more and more students entered the schools and more teachers were needed they began to charge more fees and eventually tuition at the 4 year level. Still the costs were minimal at the state university level. The University of California system cost more and the requirements to get in where much stiffer. The private University of system was even more expensive and had more of a religious application along with the secular classes. After proposition 13, which limited property taxation, was passed in 1978, education, libraries, health facilities, social welfare etc were deeply impacted. By the early 80s tuition was being charged at the community colleges and tuition had started to go off the deep end at the four year universities. What San Francisco is proposing is to cut tuition at the community college level. The four year universities would not be affected. Still, if this was applied state wide, it would be very costly as there are 113 Community Colleges serving 2.4 million students. Currently the tuition and fees are about $1100 a year. That is a lot of money that would need to come from somewhere to pay for the staff, buildings, etc. While the plan might work in one city, it will be very hard to apply state wide.

 

[DeYaKen]

Get your education at a Canadian university for half the price and then move back to the US. Lots of American students up here. Some even like the place enough to stay. Canadian educational credentials accepted anywhere in the US.

Isn't that rather like Sarah Palin's family travelling across the border to take advantage of the sort of healthcare she wants to deny to other Americans. It is nothing more than a rich country sponging off of a poorer one.

The country as a whole, benefits from having a better-educated workforce so why shouldn't the country pay? It seems very odd to an outsider to see US companies paying inflated salaries to tempt well educated foreigners to work for them, while at the same time refusing to pay the taxes that would give them the same level of education on their doorstep. Denmark doesn't have that problem, they pay people to go to university.

 

[EternalFantasy]

Isn't that rather like Sarah Palin's family travelling across the border to take advantage of the sort of healthcare she wants to deny to other Americans. It is nothing more than a rich country sponging off of a poorer one.

You are replying to someone sponging off the society he moved into in Ontario; All while ridiculing their way of life.

 

[Conager]

No, nor should the government run up the profits of the education industrial complex by pumping grant money and loan guarantee money that more times than not is never going to be paid back into the system.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Isn't that rather like Sarah Palin's family travelling across the border to take advantage of the sort of healthcare she wants to deny to other Americans. It is nothing more than a rich country sponging off of a poorer one.

The country as a whole, benefits from having a better-educated workforce so why shouldn't the country pay? It seems very odd to an outsider to see US companies paying inflated salaries to tempt well educated foreigners to work for them, while at the same time refusing to pay the taxes that would give them the same level of education on their doorstep. Denmark doesn't have that problem, they pay people to go to university.

Our universities and government don't appear to have any issues with foreign students. I'm assuming there is money to be made off them.

You are replying to someone sponging off the society he moved into in Ontario; All while ridiculing their way of life.

We emigrated from England in '69. Sponging! I don't collect OW, ODPS or EI. Only way you can tell I'm an immigrant is if I bring it up. I certainly do not ridicule Canada or Ontario. In fact I extoll the virtues of living here all the time. Best damn country on the planet!

Fuckhead!