Cite?
You're always crowing about Republicans winning elections. How could they, if the voters were so indoctrinated?
H.R. 899: “The Department of Education shall terminate on December 31, 2018.”
- Thread starter irksomesauce
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Cite?
You're always crowing about Republicans winning elections. How could they, if the voters were so indoctrinated?
Rightguide
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God help us at Cornell as well where our triggered youth are frightened into safe spaces to cry and knead play dough after the release of election results.
Any sane and educated American would have done that after the last election.
Rightguide
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The majority of Americans are between 40 and 60. The indoctrinated spoken of are our youth who today are too immature, naive, and ignorant to be allowed to vote. they vote at a lesser rate than the foregoing.
We have had substantially the same educational system for more than 100 years. And the elements RWs are always complaining about date from the 1970s. Your numbers don't add up.
Rightguide
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Today's youth have to go to college to get the same education a high schooler got 100 years ago.
Sean
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I'm reasonably sure high schools weren't teaching relativity and quantum mechanics a century ago.
That would be irrelevant if true; it has nothing to do with political indoctrination.
sharingfantasies
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::getting on my soapbox::
I want you to picture a room filled with parents, community people, and politicians. These people are determining what children should learn in school, not just basics like reading, but every little step that they believe leads up to learning to read or write or do math. They discuss what should be allowed, what should be banned, what books should be used, which books should be banned, how the material should be taught and what testing should be done to prove that the material was taught. These people have no training and their only experience inside classrooms is when they were students themselves. Like all people, their concepts of the world are based on their own memories and what they sort of remember school being.
Locked out of the room is a group of people that will be told what and how they should teach what the people inside the room have determined is best for their children. The people outside of the room have no input. These people have spent years being preparing to work with students, they are called educators. They have a minimum of five years of training prior to entering a classroom. They have degrees and credentials showing they are professionals. Yet, they are locked outside of the room.
These rooms exist in thousands of communities around the United States. Each group creates a list of things they think children should learn called standards. The standards are what the people in the room believe each student should learn at each grade level. They contact textbook companies and pay billions of dollars to these companies to create materials to present the information they want taught. They contact test making companies and spend billions of dollars on tests that they feel will best prove that the teacher has taught the standards the people created.
The educational policies, standards, materials and tests are then sent to the educators and they are told "Do this" to prove that our children are smarter than children around the world.
Since those educational policies, standards, materials and tests are designed by different communities there is no way to truly compare the students in New York with those in Alabama with those in North Dakota with those in California. Yet, the people in the room look at their community-based test scores and wonder why certain students in certain communities do better than others. It must be the educators' fault.
So the people in the communities come together again. They increase the standards to be taught each year, they increase the score that meets the goal they decide is a good one, they go back to the textbook and test companies and order new materials and new tests. They tell the educators "Do this" to prove that you are a good teacher.
Again, the educators are outside the room. This time they have banded together and created unions to try to get someone inside the room to listen to the experience of the educators. The educators want to have some say in the standards so that they are the same in every community. "You cannot compare the education of students using totally different standards," they say. "Let's have a national set of standards that applies to all students in the US."
The people in the room think about this. Some people say this could be a good idea and some people think that it will detract from their group being able to make all the decisions. The Department of Education for the US decides that it should take on a larger role and help to make the US education system more consistent. They put into a room politicians, parents, community members and even allow some educators to come inside.
This group creates a set of standards that will be common to all the states. The standards are based on good teaching methodologies and are sequential to how students learn. Everyone in the room is excited and they rush out to tell the world about these new Common Core Standards. But there are still those that are unhappy because they didn't get to have input or make the decisions, so they complain to the Department of Education. The DOE decides that rather than stick to their decision to have common standards for all students in the US, they will avoid standing up for what is right and allow the states to determine if they wish to utilize the national standards or not. They also tell states that they can add on to the standards if they wish. These choices, of course, undermine the concept of national standards as, once again, different communities are doing different things.
Then the DOE is told by the Washington politicians that the politicians are going to set a number and ALL students must meet that number on testing in order to be considered as proficient. No one cares whether that student has learning disabilities, does not speak English (but must take the test in English), or whether that student has test anxiety and often fails tests but shows in other ways that they know the concepts.
The educators and their union are upset. How can the DOE, state politicians and even parents going to be able to make a comparison when different information is being taught, different materials being used, and different tests being compared. The educators are scorned because "what do they know, they are ONLY teachers not professionals" like the politicians and community members.
When the different test score results are published, everyone says the educators are terrible as these score are different and very skewed from one state to the other. The education system is flawed. So next year let's raise the score goal, and each year after, we will raise the bar a little more. We will expect all students to learn at the same rate, in the same way, at the same time. Teachers whose students that do not reach the bar (that we will keep changing based on standards that are not consistent) will be considered failures.
The government decides that we need a new plan. Let's get rid of the department of education and let the states and local communities determine the standards, materials, and testing that should be used for their community since all communities are different. This will help us to improve our schools and raise out test scores nationally. We will create charter schools and give parents vouchers so they can take their children out of public schools and put them in private/voucher schools. This will help raise our test scores since those schools are not required to meet state standards or even to have professionally trained educators. The schools will have different expectations and they will not be overseen or regulated by any department of education. This will help our students to get better test scores.
When the educators try to point out that this makes no sense they are scorned, harassed, and belittled. In some cases they are even threatened. Crazy, unprofessional losers that just want their summers off and couldn't care less about the children. We should fire them all.
Until we have national standards for all students that are based on how children learn, allows for flexibility in the ways that they learn, and takes into consideration that we have students with learning issues, students that speak a variety of languages, and students whose home lives affect their academic lives, we cannot compare test scores fairly. Not between districts in the same state, state to state, or the US with other countries. It just can't be done. No matter how much the politicians wish to do so.
::steps off soap box::
As an aside: Personally, I would love to see testing and comparisons dumped for any reason other than to let educators see where they need to make changes in their plans for the following year. Then let's go back to adding in science, history, art, music, social play and interaction, and vocational classes. Let's change the way the universities train teachers. Let's lower class size in all states in all grades, and teach teachers how to use individual planning and differentiation. Let's create one set of standards, nationwide, and train the teachers. Let's use the common standards that stress critical and creative thinking, discourse, and project-based lessons. Then train the teachers. Let's use a variety of methods to determine how much the students are learning. Let's make school fun and exciting and not just test driven. And maybe, if we really want to go out on a limb, let's let the educators into the room and let them have some input.
Just a thought.
I want you to picture a room filled with parents, community people, and politicians. These people are determining what children should learn in school, not just basics like reading, but every little step that they believe leads up to learning to read or write or do math. They discuss what should be allowed, what should be banned, what books should be used, which books should be banned, how the material should be taught and what testing should be done to prove that the material was taught. These people have no training and their only experience inside classrooms is when they were students themselves. Like all people, their concepts of the world are based on their own memories and what they sort of remember school being.
Locked out of the room is a group of people that will be told what and how they should teach what the people inside the room have determined is best for their children. The people outside of the room have no input. These people have spent years being preparing to work with students, they are called educators. They have a minimum of five years of training prior to entering a classroom. They have degrees and credentials showing they are professionals. Yet, they are locked outside of the room.
These rooms exist in thousands of communities around the United States. Each group creates a list of things they think children should learn called standards. The standards are what the people in the room believe each student should learn at each grade level. They contact textbook companies and pay billions of dollars to these companies to create materials to present the information they want taught. They contact test making companies and spend billions of dollars on tests that they feel will best prove that the teacher has taught the standards the people created.
The educational policies, standards, materials and tests are then sent to the educators and they are told "Do this" to prove that our children are smarter than children around the world.
Since those educational policies, standards, materials and tests are designed by different communities there is no way to truly compare the students in New York with those in Alabama with those in North Dakota with those in California. Yet, the people in the room look at their community-based test scores and wonder why certain students in certain communities do better than others. It must be the educators' fault.
So the people in the communities come together again. They increase the standards to be taught each year, they increase the score that meets the goal they decide is a good one, they go back to the textbook and test companies and order new materials and new tests. They tell the educators "Do this" to prove that you are a good teacher.
Again, the educators are outside the room. This time they have banded together and created unions to try to get someone inside the room to listen to the experience of the educators. The educators want to have some say in the standards so that they are the same in every community. "You cannot compare the education of students using totally different standards," they say. "Let's have a national set of standards that applies to all students in the US."
The people in the room think about this. Some people say this could be a good idea and some people think that it will detract from their group being able to make all the decisions. The Department of Education for the US decides that it should take on a larger role and help to make the US education system more consistent. They put into a room politicians, parents, community members and even allow some educators to come inside.
This group creates a set of standards that will be common to all the states. The standards are based on good teaching methodologies and are sequential to how students learn. Everyone in the room is excited and they rush out to tell the world about these new Common Core Standards. But there are still those that are unhappy because they didn't get to have input or make the decisions, so they complain to the Department of Education. The DOE decides that rather than stick to their decision to have common standards for all students in the US, they will avoid standing up for what is right and allow the states to determine if they wish to utilize the national standards or not. They also tell states that they can add on to the standards if they wish. These choices, of course, undermine the concept of national standards as, once again, different communities are doing different things.
Then the DOE is told by the Washington politicians that the politicians are going to set a number and ALL students must meet that number on testing in order to be considered as proficient. No one cares whether that student has learning disabilities, does not speak English (but must take the test in English), or whether that student has test anxiety and often fails tests but shows in other ways that they know the concepts.
The educators and their union are upset. How can the DOE, state politicians and even parents going to be able to make a comparison when different information is being taught, different materials being used, and different tests being compared. The educators are scorned because "what do they know, they are ONLY teachers not professionals" like the politicians and community members.
When the different test score results are published, everyone says the educators are terrible as these score are different and very skewed from one state to the other. The education system is flawed. So next year let's raise the score goal, and each year after, we will raise the bar a little more. We will expect all students to learn at the same rate, in the same way, at the same time. Teachers whose students that do not reach the bar (that we will keep changing based on standards that are not consistent) will be considered failures.
The government decides that we need a new plan. Let's get rid of the department of education and let the states and local communities determine the standards, materials, and testing that should be used for their community since all communities are different. This will help us to improve our schools and raise out test scores nationally. We will create charter schools and give parents vouchers so they can take their children out of public schools and put them in private/voucher schools. This will help raise our test scores since those schools are not required to meet state standards or even to have professionally trained educators. The schools will have different expectations and they will not be overseen or regulated by any department of education. This will help our students to get better test scores.
When the educators try to point out that this makes no sense they are scorned, harassed, and belittled. In some cases they are even threatened. Crazy, unprofessional losers that just want their summers off and couldn't care less about the children. We should fire them all.
Until we have national standards for all students that are based on how children learn, allows for flexibility in the ways that they learn, and takes into consideration that we have students with learning issues, students that speak a variety of languages, and students whose home lives affect their academic lives, we cannot compare test scores fairly. Not between districts in the same state, state to state, or the US with other countries. It just can't be done. No matter how much the politicians wish to do so.
::steps off soap box::
As an aside: Personally, I would love to see testing and comparisons dumped for any reason other than to let educators see where they need to make changes in their plans for the following year. Then let's go back to adding in science, history, art, music, social play and interaction, and vocational classes. Let's change the way the universities train teachers. Let's lower class size in all states in all grades, and teach teachers how to use individual planning and differentiation. Let's create one set of standards, nationwide, and train the teachers. Let's use the common standards that stress critical and creative thinking, discourse, and project-based lessons. Then train the teachers. Let's use a variety of methods to determine how much the students are learning. Let's make school fun and exciting and not just test driven. And maybe, if we really want to go out on a limb, let's let the educators into the room and let them have some input.
Just a thought.
irksomesauce
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Just a thought.
Here's "a thought":
Why don't you stuff all your collective "Let's" crap up your socialist butt and resmoke it again?
Why is it so difficult for socialist mommies to understand that others see your federalist village political mentality as totally detrimental to the individual development of kids whose parents are fed up with your socialist child abuse?
Quit MOB FORCING your repugnant socialist views onto others who don't care for your collective crab.
Because in other countries that use such an approach it is anything but detrimental. E.g., Japanese kids graduate HS knowing a lot more than American kids. So do French kids, British kids, etc.
SgtSpiderMan
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Here's "a thought":
Why don't you stuff all your collective "Let's" crap up your socialist butt and resmoke it again?
Why is it so difficult for socialist mommies to understand that others see your federalist village political mentality as totally detrimental to the individual development of kids whose parents are fed up with your socialist child abuse?
Quit MOB FORCING your repugnant socialist views onto others who don't care for your collective crab.
Show me anyone who is forced to do anything. I'll wait.......
Ooh, those things are nasty! And you really can catch them from toilet seats!
EternalFantasy
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So i'm assuming we've gone from "bullshit" to agreeing? If so, great!
I'd truly like to take a looksie at that old paper if you ever scanned it.
4est_4est_Gump
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Somewhat incorrect. It was demoted the next year to an office and was shrunk. It was shuffled around, renamed and given a different mission in the 30s and 50s...
It was, as an entity never a cabinet-level department until the peanut farmer needed to curry favor with the teacher's unions heading into the election.
oggbashan
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So i'm assuming we've gone from "bullshit" to agreeing? If so, great!
I'd truly like to take a looksie at that old paper if you ever scanned it.
I had tried scanning it but not recently. My current scanner might work better than the one I had ten years ago. Then the definition was too poor because of the paper that the text was printed on.
It is in 18th Century formal French and runs to several thousand words.
I've just done a search. I think it is available digitally at Stanford Law Library.
It is issue 60, 30 Brumaire, l'an 3 de la Republique Francaise une et indivisible (J 20 9bre 1794, vieux st.) - 20 September 1794
It is in a report of the Convention Nationale debates of 28 Brumaire (18 Sept)
EternalFantasy
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Rightguide,
I've watched the exchanges for a couple of days. I'm sure you know the matter is more complicated than to be able to crisply verbalize it in a short and neat fashion. And even if you manage to, the subject here is incapable of neither conceptualizing nor digesting all the elements involved.
I suppose this is word of encouragement and signaling from this end that what you are saying makes a lot of sense. Just not to some lost causes.
EternalFantasy
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I tried. Not easy to find. I suppose i'll take the proof in the pudding on this matter.
The stuff the french are trying to impose on students' minds and perception... let's just say: nature would object. Cause I don't wanna get into those details.
Rightguide
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My only point, in the beginning, was to degrade the notion that a minor bureau created in the 1860s was in some way analogous to the federal DOE of today.
The concept of a centralized educational authority in DC directing the educational standards in the states was an alien concept in that time period and would have been rejected by every state government in the union as an infringement of state sovereignty.
Rightguide
Prof Triggernometry
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Because a hundred years ago quantum mechanics wasn't relative to contemporary technology and the theory of relativity was still in its infancy.
Conager
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The left is trying to pretend the DOE is not a completely modern, strictly partisan creation. Even when Republucans held office since, tbey still bent to the will of the NEA for which it was created.
Bush was, arguably, the worst in enabling this extra-constitutional power grab. NCLB was an utter fsilure in every measurable way, but it lent legitimacy to the idea that the Feds have any oversight or responsibity over education.
Rightguide
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Reminds one of 1984 in which Orwell created the "Ministry of Truth" which was constantly at work adjusting the history of events to fortify the policies of Big Brother.
SgtSpiderMan
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I'm still waiting for those stats you mentioned earlier, but I would love to see an example of anyone bending to the will of the NEA.
None of which makes it a bad idea.
oggbashan
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I tried scanning it. It worked but I can't upload it to Lit in a size that is readable.
It is either far too large or far too blurred if it is small enough.
It was only a detailed proposal that never went anywhere. The author ended up on the wrong side of the Revolution, was arrested and committed 'suicide' after two days in his cell - a convenient suicide because he was popular and if guillotined there might have been protests.
The point of the proposals was to replace the education system devised and run by Catholic Priests. The intention was to have a system from first school to postgraduate that was secular and followed the principles of the Enlightenment. It was to be run by the highest academics, not politicians, which was one of the reasons why it failed. The main reason was the external wars the French were fighting. They couldn't afford schools and teachers.
Many of the principles in the proposals were later adopted by Napoleon in his decrees in education. One that was shocking in 1794 was that ALL teaching must be in French - Not Breton in Brittany; German in Alsace/Lorraine; Basque near the Pyrennees etc. The principle still applies to almost every French state school today, even for immigrants. Don't know French? Tough. Take extra classes outside school until you DO know French. That can be hard on ex-pat English speakers' children who are in France for a short period.
I think you are wrong about the recent changes to the French education system. For decades it has been run by leftish academics by edict from the centre. The changes give more power and flexibility to teachers IN the classroom. It is opposed by the left and the teachers' unions (who are dominated by left politicians) because teachers might actually have to think.
Until recently they could teach exactly the same lesson they taught in the same week last year, and the year before that, and... Now they have to adapt to the needs of the particular children - radical!
The changes may have been introduced by a socialist government but they are more right wing than most teachers want.
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